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Mazdax605
Mazdax605 PowerDork
2/24/21 11:49 a.m.

Hello all,

 

  We received an air bag recall notice for our sons 04 Pontiac Vibe in the mail the other day. Of course there was no real instructions on what to do. So I just called the local Toyota dealer we bought a few vehicles from, and use for service on a pretty regular basis. I figured why not ask them as it is a Toyota in Pontiac guise. The service guy I got on the phone told me that the Vibe in no way is a Toyota, and that I should call a local GMC dealer. I told him that the Vibe is almost in every way a Toyota, with a Toyota engine, transmission, wiring, etc, but he said that it was not. I got frustrated and hung up.  What do we do? I understand that there is probably no fix yet as they are back ordered, but where do we bring the car when Toyota tells you that the car made by them is not theirs?

wae
wae UberDork
2/24/21 11:58 a.m.

In reply to Mazdax605 :

From my.gm.com:  "The Certified Service experts at your local Chevrolet, Buick, GMC or Cadillac Dealer are equipped to handle your recall repair, including Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Saturn and HUMMER vehicles."

So sounds like you need to call a GM-brand dealer.

And it makes sense that Toyota doesn't want to deal with it.  I'm sure that the contractual language stipulates that GM has to pay for any Vibe recalls and warranty work while Toyota only has to cover the Matrix.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa UltraDork
2/24/21 11:58 a.m.

Your service guy is an idiot, however he is probably correct in that you should call a GM dealership.

The airbag has the logo cast into the horn cover, right?  GM is going to be able to order that easier than a Toyota dealership.

Peabody
Peabody UltimaDork
2/24/21 12:02 p.m.
Mazdax605 said:

  We received a recall notice for our Pontiac .  So I just called the local Toyota dealer

Hmmm

Mazdax605
Mazdax605 PowerDork
2/24/21 12:05 p.m.
Peabody said:
Mazdax605 said:

  We received a recall notice for our Pontiac .  So I just called the local Toyota dealer

Hmmm

It's a Toyota in every way aside from the logos. Makes sense to me. Can't call the local Pontiac dealer.

Professor_Brap (Forum Supporter)
Professor_Brap (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
2/24/21 12:11 p.m.

Call your local gm dealer. They will be of some what help. 

dps214
dps214 HalfDork
2/24/21 12:14 p.m.
Mazdax605 said:
Peabody said:
Mazdax605 said:

  We received a recall notice for our Pontiac .  So I just called the local Toyota dealer

Hmmm

It's a Toyota in every way aside from the logos. Makes sense to me. Can't call the local Pontiac dealer.

In every way except the one that matters when you're trying to find a dealer that will do warranty work on it. It's officially a gm product. Any other brand dealer isn't going to touch it.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
2/24/21 2:17 p.m.
Mazdax605 said:

Hello all,

 

  We received an air bag recall notice for our sons 04 Pontiac Vibe in the mail the other day. Of course there was no real instructions on what to do. So I just called the local Toyota dealer we bought a few vehicles from, and use for service on a pretty regular basis. I figured why not ask them as it is a Toyota in Pontiac guise. The service guy I got on the phone told me that the Vibe in no way is a Toyota, and that I should call a local GMC dealer. I told him that the Vibe is almost in every way a Toyota, with a Toyota engine, transmission, wiring, etc, but he said that it was not. I got frustrated and hung up.

He's not wrong, though.  There are some accessory level differences, and for some reason the airbox and air filter are different between Vibe and Matrix, at least for some years.  (One has a filter a half inch wider and a half inch shorter compared to the other one.  Why? Who knows??) There are probably just enough differences that one can get burned assuming that everything is interchangeable.

 

If the airbag includes the outer cover, for sure it's different.

 

FMB42
FMB42 New Reader
2/24/21 2:44 p.m.

No Toyota badges = not a Toyota in regards to your warranty issue. The recall notice you received, if genuine, should have clearly explained what dealership/brand options you have in regards to fulfilling your warranty claim. Meanwhile, the whole 'Takata air bag recall' thing has left a bad mark on most of the auto industry. Case in point; my wife received an air bag recall notice on her 2012 Sbru which stated a 6 month or more backorder on the A bag (I had disconnected the passenger AB connector when the whole mess began). Yet, low and behold, a month or two later she was informed that a local Sbru dealership had her replacement bag in stock and ready to be installed. She had the 'work' done, only to find out that the dealership supposedly did a 'same for same' AB change (i.e.Takata for Takata). Yet we could not verify that any such 'change' was actually performed. None, nada, zip. At the time my wife had about year or so of payments left and we eventually felt that Sbru pulled a 'same for same' stunt just to keep her from suing and/or refusing to make further payments.

The end of this long story is that she received yet another AB recall notice about 6 months after she made her last payment. She, of course, had the work done. However, she has lost all faith in the brand.

P3PPY
P3PPY Dork
2/24/21 6:40 p.m.

I ran into this crap with the Saabaru too, trying to hunt down if it was covered under the recall (no, because they had already “fixed” the issue) and the Subaru guy was zero help

For Saab at least, GM corporate directed me to a local non-dealer Saab-centric service shop

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
2/24/21 6:47 p.m.

It seems odd to me that the Ford dealer  won't atock parts for my Volvo.  I mean, why not?  Ford owned Volvo when mine was built...

Where is the sarcasm emoji?

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
2/24/21 7:05 p.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Finding parts for Jaguar S-types is hilarious.  Jaguar doesn't stock anything because it's a different company now.  Ford dealers will basically tell you to berk off.

 

But, say, didja know that eBay listings for Lincoln LSs usually have a VIN listed, that you can use to order parts from a Lincoln dealer?  For instance.

 

This doesn't help for recall work, but helps you find parts that the aftermarket has not picked up.

 

(If it is a safety recall, there MUST be a way for you to get parts, by law.  Which means that, interestingly enough, Fiat, or I think Peugeot now, has to be able to supply a replacement heater core for a Renault Alliance/Encore if the recall hadn't been performed on it yet)

flat4_5spd
flat4_5spd New Reader
2/24/21 8:05 p.m.

1) My MIL had a Pontiac VIbe under the Takata recall- local GM dealer took care of it. 

2.) To the people complaining about same for same airbag swapouts- the issue is that the Takata bags become dangerous as they age and are exposed to humidity. So, given the supply chain issues, installing a fresh bag of the same defective design is much safer and buys time until redesigned bags are available. As of a couple of years ago, Toyota was selling NEW vehicles with known defective bags with the intention of swapping the bags out for better ones before they became dangerous. 

 

 

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
2/24/21 8:29 p.m.
flat4_5spd said:

2.) To the people complaining about same for same airbag swapouts- the issue is that the Takata bags become dangerous as they age and are exposed to humidity. So, given the supply chain issues, installing a fresh bag of the same defective design is much safer and buys time until redesigned bags are available. As of a couple of years ago, Toyota was selling NEW vehicles with known defective bags with the intention of swapping the bags out for better ones before they became dangerous. 

 

 

Completely correct. I work in a related field and this is what's happening. Takata was looking for a cheaper way to make airbags and they switched from the old standard sodium azide propellant to ammonium nitrate. The ammonium nitrate absorbs humidity with age which alters the charastics of the charge. The inflater, which is like a rocket nozzle for the gas to inflate the airbag, gets overpowered and ruptures. Rupture meaning burst or explode, which throws shrapnel. The shrapnel has killed people. 

 

The government, auto manufacturers, and airbag manufacturers have done extensive testing and understand how aging effects this and are doing like for likes to buy time and get the dangerous bags out.

 

Why not just swap out bags with a safer propellant? Airbag inflaters take a lot of time and work to engineer. Much less set up and get a manufacturing line up to speed. Couple that with taking an industry (airbag manufacturers) and asking them to keep engineering and making the new stuff and at the same time reengineer and manufacture more than 30,000,000 airbags of various designs...  Oh yeah, the ammonium nitrate takes up a bit less space, so there's some packaging engineering challenges there too.

 

Fun fact, there are some of them out there that run a 50% chance of exploding and throwing shrapnel if the airbag is deployed. If you got a recall letter saying "DO NOT DRIVE", you likely have one of them. The auto manufacturer will send a tow truck for your car to do the recall 

 

I passionately implore you. GET THE D@MN RECALL DONE.

FMB42
FMB42 New Reader
2/25/21 7:47 a.m.

Quote: "o the people complaining about same for same airbag swapouts- the issue is that the Takata bags become dangerous as they age and are exposed to humidity."

The issue I had with the 'same for same' swap was that we could find no record of this being done on my wife's vehicle per the VIN. We searched on and off for several months and again found no record of this swap. The bottom line is that I don't think they did the swap. I'll also note that Takata is/was accused of storing their AB units improperly and, as such, some were defective before they were even installed.

New York Nick
New York Nick GRM+ Memberand Reader
2/25/21 8:15 a.m.

Maybe off topic on this but I have asked this question before to friends locally so here we go...

How long is (actually should be) Takata or any other auto manufacturer responsible for something like this? Car's get minimal required maintenance, operate in completely uncontrolled circumstances and can last an undeterminable amount of time. I just googled the topic and the Car and Driver stated on October 5, 2020 that there have been 26 deaths world wide from these airbags. How many lives were saved in the same time period? 

I am all in on no one should be putting a knowingly defective product in the market but how long should it last? In 2090 when someone takes their vintage 1996 Civic to a car show and the air bag explodes are they going to sue Takata then? Do we take legal action against any 1960's vintage car manufacture if we get harpooned by the steering wheel with only a lap belt? 

FMB42
FMB42 New Reader
2/25/21 8:37 a.m.

Let's keep in mind that more than a few car manufacturers installed known to be defective Takata ABs for well over a decade. Meanwhile, I've never sued anyone or any business/corporation. And nor do I think I ever will. Probably could have in a few instances, but that's just not my way of thinking. I guess I'm more of a 'learn a lesson and move on' kind of person.

1kris06
1kris06 HalfDork
2/25/21 8:58 a.m.
Mazdax605 said:

Hello all,

 

  We received an air bag recall notice for our sons 04 Pontiac Vibe in the mail the other day. Of course there was no real instructions on what to do. So I just called the local Toyota dealer we bought a few vehicles from, and use for service on a pretty regular basis. I figured why not ask them as it is a Toyota in Pontiac guise. The service guy I got on the phone told me that the Vibe in no way is a Toyota, and that I should call a local GMC dealer. I told him that the Vibe is almost in every way a Toyota, with a Toyota engine, transmission, wiring, etc, but he said that it was not. I got frustrated and hung up.  What do we do? I understand that there is probably no fix yet as they are back ordered, but where do we bring the car when Toyota tells you that the car made by them is not theirs?

He was in every way correct. Honda dealers cannot perform recalls on Acura's no matter how similar the vehicle may be. For the same reason a Toyota dealer would turn you away if you brought a subaru brz in for recall work.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/25/21 9:15 a.m.
New York Nick said:

I am all in on no one should be putting a knowingly defective product in the market but how long should it last? In 2090 when someone takes their vintage 1996 Civic to a car show and the air bag explodes are they going to sue Takata then? Do we take legal action against any 1960's vintage car manufacture if we get harpooned by the steering wheel with only a lap belt? 

Those are not the same thing. The 1960's cars were built to the safety levels expected and required at the time. The cars with defective airbags were not. 

dps214
dps214 HalfDork
2/25/21 9:15 a.m.
New York Nick said:

Maybe off topic on this but I have asked this question before to friends locally so here we go...

How long is (actually should be) Takata or any other auto manufacturer responsible for something like this? Car's get minimal required maintenance, operate in completely uncontrolled circumstances and can last an undeterminable amount of time. I just googled the topic and the Car and Driver stated on October 5, 2020 that there have been 26 deaths world wide from these airbags. How many lives were saved in the same time period? 

I am all in on no one should be putting a knowingly defective product in the market but how long should it last? In 2090 when someone takes their vintage 1996 Civic to a car show and the air bag explodes are they going to sue Takata then? Do we take legal action against any 1960's vintage car manufacture if we get harpooned by the steering wheel with only a lap belt? 

I'm pretty sure that's one of those things you're better off not thinking about. Not so much whether the manufacturer is responsible, but whether you can really expect an incendiary device to still work as originally designed 20-30+ years later even under the best of conditions.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
2/25/21 9:30 a.m.
New York Nick said:

Maybe off topic on this but I have asked this question before to friends locally so here we go...

How long is (actually should be) Takata or any other auto manufacturer responsible for something like this? Car's get minimal required maintenance, operate in completely uncontrolled circumstances and can last an undeterminable amount of time. I just googled the topic and the Car and Driver stated on October 5, 2020 that there have been 26 deaths world wide from these airbags. How many lives were saved in the same time period? 

I am all in on no one should be putting a knowingly defective product in the market but how long should it last? In 2090 when someone takes their vintage 1996 Civic to a car show and the air bag explodes are they going to sue Takata then? Do we take legal action against any 1960's vintage car manufacture if we get harpooned by the steering wheel with only a lap belt? 

If it is a Federally mandated safety recall (meaning, not a voluntary one by the manufacturer), forever.  In the case of the Renault Alliance/Encore, they had to replace the heater core in every vehicle that hadn't been legally destroyed.  Rotting in a field somewhere? They had to drag it to a dealership and replace the heater core.

 

Mazda RX-7 motorized belts are under a lifetime warranty to prevent a recall.  There are still people with 30 year old Mazdas getting free replacement seat belts.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
2/25/21 9:31 a.m.
FMB42 said:

Let's keep in mind that more than a few car manufacturers installed known to be defective Takata ABs for well over a decade. Meanwhile, I've never sued anyone or any business/corporation. And nor do I think I ever will. Probably could have in a few instances, but that's just not my way of thinking. I guess I'm more of a 'learn a lesson and move on' kind of person.

You may not, but if you were injured in a collision, your insurance company will sue them.

eastsideTim
eastsideTim PowerDork
2/25/21 9:33 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:
New York Nick said:

I am all in on no one should be putting a knowingly defective product in the market but how long should it last? In 2090 when someone takes their vintage 1996 Civic to a car show and the air bag explodes are they going to sue Takata then? Do we take legal action against any 1960's vintage car manufacture if we get harpooned by the steering wheel with only a lap belt? 

Those are not the same thing. The 1960's cars were built to the safety levels expected and required at the time. The cars with defective airbags were not. 

Hopefully NHTSA didn't set a precedent forcing FCA to put trailer hitches on older Grand Cherokees that met the safety requirements at the time they were manufactured.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
2/25/21 9:38 a.m.
eastsideTim said:
Keith Tanner said:
New York Nick said:

I am all in on no one should be putting a knowingly defective product in the market but how long should it last? In 2090 when someone takes their vintage 1996 Civic to a car show and the air bag explodes are they going to sue Takata then? Do we take legal action against any 1960's vintage car manufacture if we get harpooned by the steering wheel with only a lap belt? 

Those are not the same thing. The 1960's cars were built to the safety levels expected and required at the time. The cars with defective airbags were not. 

Hopefully NHTSA didn't set a precedent forcing FCA to put trailer hitches on older Grand Cherokees that met the safety requirements at the time they were manufactured.

NHTSA operates under "unreasonable risk to motor vehicle safety" in that realm, not just "does it pass a specific crash test".  

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
2/25/21 9:45 a.m.
dps214 said:
New York Nick said:

Maybe off topic on this but I have asked this question before to friends locally so here we go...

How long is (actually should be) Takata or any other auto manufacturer responsible for something like this? Car's get minimal required maintenance, operate in completely uncontrolled circumstances and can last an undeterminable amount of time. I just googled the topic and the Car and Driver stated on October 5, 2020 that there have been 26 deaths world wide from these airbags. How many lives were saved in the same time period? 

I am all in on no one should be putting a knowingly defective product in the market but how long should it last? In 2090 when someone takes their vintage 1996 Civic to a car show and the air bag explodes are they going to sue Takata then? Do we take legal action against any 1960's vintage car manufacture if we get harpooned by the steering wheel with only a lap belt? 

I'm pretty sure that's one of those things you're better off not thinking about. Not so much whether the manufacturer is responsible, but whether you can really expect an incendiary device to still work as originally designed 20-30+ years later even under the best of conditions.

Remember back when airbags were new (not counting the Oldsmobiles in '74ish) and Mercedes and Volvo had decals in the doors to indicate when the airbags had to be replaced?

 

IIRC they are supposed to be replaced every ten years.

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