AllSystemsNominal
AllSystemsNominal New Reader
6/21/12 9:18 p.m.

Bought a set of brand new koni sports for my NA Miata

when compressing and extending them out by hand the 2 front shocks are not equal to eachother one of them seems to only take about 1/2 to 2/3 the force to extend. doesnt matter where I set the adjusters. There is no oil anywhere so they are not leaking at all

does this actually mean anything ? could it be that the one just needs to wear in a little bit ? anyone else have a similar experience with new konis ??

thanks

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 UltraDork
6/21/12 9:47 p.m.

I'm assuming these are single adjustable? Yellows?

Adjusting them to stiff should make them very hard to extend by hand, at least in my experience. Of course, my experience is limited to 8610s so they may be stiffer than some others. But I'd think there would be a noticeable difference unless there was a problem of some kind.

I'm sure someone on here has experience with Konis for a Miata. I think there was another Miata owner here. Maybe two.

AllSystemsNominal
AllSystemsNominal New Reader
6/21/12 9:54 p.m.

yes single adjustable sports. sorry forgot to put that in my post

JohnyHachi6
JohnyHachi6 Reader
6/21/12 11:19 p.m.

I can't remember 100%, but I think there was some variation between the two front Koni Yellows that I put on the RX-8 (brand new). I seem to remember when initially compressing them one had a little bit of travel that had basically no resistance at the top of the stroke and the other didn't. I think it went away after compressing them a few times though.

foxtrapper
foxtrapper PowerDork
6/22/12 5:02 a.m.

If you can't make them balance at all, something is wrong with them. Though I suspect you're not properly adjusting them.

njansenv
njansenv Dork
6/22/12 8:00 a.m.
JohnyHachi6 wrote: I can't remember 100%, but I think there was some variation between the two front Koni Yellows that I put on the RX-8 (brand new). I seem to remember when initially compressing them one had a little bit of travel that had basically no resistance at the top of the stroke and the other didn't. I think it went away after compressing them a few times though.

It's fairly common for twin-tubes to exhibit "morning sickness", wherein they need some use to replenish the pressure cylinder in the damper. When not in use, the oil can drain out of the pressure cylinder into the reservoir (until the oil levels out). This results in a damper "lag" wherein there is a period of reduced force for some displacement.

The foot valve at the bottom acts like a somewhat leaky check valve. In operation, the oil gets pumped back into the pressure chamber and the lag goes away.

Per Schroeder
Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director
6/22/12 8:44 a.m.

And according to Lee at Koni, you're about as likely to tell a difference between Konis by hand as you are by trying to smell a difference between them.

AllSystemsNominal
AllSystemsNominal New Reader
6/22/12 9:23 a.m.

With both of them at full stiff, one I can pull on hard and the shaft very slowly and steadly comes out. The other koni I can barely extend by hand at full stiff. there is definitely a difference.

tpwalsh
tpwalsh Reader
6/22/12 9:28 a.m.
Per Schroeder wrote: And according to Lee at Koni, you're about as likely to tell a difference between Konis by hand as you are by trying to smell a difference between them.

This is what I've heard as well. I just lick them to see if they're worn out or not.

Per Schroeder
Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director
6/22/12 11:58 a.m.

Lee's response:

The real answer is "No, it means nothing whatsoever." A human being can't move the shock fast enough to even begin to flow oil through the piston valving. What you feel by hand when you make adjustments is the bleed changes (oil bypassing the piston valving) and some amount of seal and guide friction/stiction that can be accentuated by the fact that the shocks are brand new and the parts have not worked together much yet. These are low pressure gas shocks of which a side effect (not a function) is that the shocks may self-extend on their own but that force is very, very small and the bleed portion of the adjustment and any light amount of friction can alter the extension rate. Just in the same way that you would never run an engine on a dyno and measure your horsepower and torque at engine idle speeds (below the design rpm range of the camshaft), trying to quantify a shock by hand is operating it far below the piston speeds where oil is actually flowing through the piston valving. Every single KONI shock absorber is dyno tested at the factory prior to advancing to the paint line. If someone receives a KONI shock with paint on it, this is proof that it passed the dyno test when it was built. Regardless of what the shock might feel like when moving them by hand or by watching the self-extension rate from the internal gas pressure, this is not real data that has any indication of actual function on the shock in operation on the car. Only a shock dyno that can move the shock fast enough to make it operate car-like at piston speeds will flow oil through the actual piston valving and quantify the real damping forces generated. I often joke that after trying to measure a shock's performance by moving it by hand, one should take their tongue and lick the shock body to see what it tastes like. Ridiculous as that sounds, it is probably about as good a testing method as moving a shock by human hand. We are going to feel different things like friction, gas pressure, bleed, etc. but we won't feel the actual valving force itself.

belteshazzar
belteshazzar UltraDork
6/22/12 12:53 p.m.
tpwalsh wrote:
Per Schroeder wrote: And according to Lee at Koni, you're about as likely to tell a difference between Konis by hand as you are by trying to smell a difference between them.
This is what I've heard as well. I just lick them to see if they're worn out or not.

bwahahahaa

njansenv
njansenv Dork
6/22/12 1:18 p.m.
tpwalsh wrote:
Per Schroeder wrote: And according to Lee at Koni, you're about as likely to tell a difference between Konis by hand as you are by trying to smell a difference between them.
This is what I've heard as well. I just lick them to see if they're worn out or not.

Not a bad idea: shock oil tastes like E36 M3.

MCarp22
MCarp22 HalfDork
6/22/12 3:51 p.m.
Per Schroeder wrote: Just in the same way that you would never run an engine on a dyno and measure your horsepower and torque at engine idle speeds

I'd probably equate it more to turning the engine with a wrench, rather than having the engine running at idle.

johnnytorque
johnnytorque Reader
6/22/12 3:53 p.m.

I am watching this thread with interest. I bought 2 new Koni yellows for the rear of my 944. One I can turn 2 full turns and 1 only turns 1 1/2 turns.
How do I even come close to adjusting them so they are the same?

Andy Hollis
Andy Hollis
6/22/12 6:13 p.m.
johnnytorque wrote: I am watching this thread with interest. I bought 2 new Koni yellows for the rear of my 944. One I can turn 2 full turns and 1 only turns 1 1/2 turns. How do I even come close to adjusting them so they are the same?

Shock dyno.

Alternatively, start at full hard and count turns back from there.

You are working with a needle-and-seat bleed which does most of its adjustment as you first crack it open. The last bits of adjustment don't do that much. Think of it like the nozzle on a hose.

johnnytorque
johnnytorque Reader
6/22/12 8:52 p.m.

In reply to Andy Hollis:

Hehe, shock dyno. I actually knew that answer. I may have to go visit the guys I know that have one.

My solution was to run the shocks at full soft hoping they would be matched best, sounds like I guessed right.

My next question is: How do I match the shocks(which aren't externally adjustable) to my newly acquired torsion bars? Same answer, shock dyno?

Oh, I love GRM.

Thanks.

amg_rx7
amg_rx7 Dork
6/22/12 9:09 p.m.

Not to bust on the OP but I have no idea why people expect to be able to tell whether a shock is good by compressing them by hand and then proclaim that as true internet way of telling judging a shock's usefulness....

I read that on so many boards that it drives me nuts.

AllSystemsNominal
AllSystemsNominal New Reader
6/22/12 11:38 p.m.
amg_rx7 wrote: Not to bust on the OP but I have no idea why people expect to be able to tell whether a shock is good by compressing them by hand and then proclaim that as true internet way of telling judging a shock's usefulness.... I read that on so many boards that it drives me nuts.

with both shocks turned close to full stiff, one I could extend all the way by hand pretty easy. the other was really stiff and I could hardly pull it out. I spoke with Koni about this and they said they think I need a replacement. they are sending me one out on monday

Aeromoto
Aeromoto Reader
6/22/12 11:52 p.m.

Your local roundy round stock car supply shop should be able to throw them on their bench tester for just a few bucks, then you'd have some real data to go by rather than just by feel.

AllSystemsNominal
AllSystemsNominal New Reader
6/27/12 11:50 p.m.

Koni decided to send me out a new shock which I got today. It feels just like the other shock that i have that felt good to me.

But the adjuster on this new one is leaking. and I really dont feel like asking for a replacement....replacement shock

If Lee Grimes is correct and koni really does put every shock they sell on a dyno before they go out then I shouldnt have anything to worry about using the one I thought might be bad then then right ?. Im curious if when they dyno them do they only test them with the shocks adjusted to 1 setting

foxtrapper
foxtrapper PowerDork
6/28/12 5:10 a.m.

Interesting read from Lee. Appreciate it.

If my hands are too weak and slow to cause any oil to flow through the valves, I wonder why they feel different when I adjust them.

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