The F150 EV Lightning thread

Trucks are designed with maximum capability in mind. An F150's Max payload is comfortably over 3200lbs, and that requires some big springs and travel. That equates to a taller vehicle, and because 1 F150 is capable of that, they're all very similar even if they're not configured or rated for that capacity.

Same is true for towing. The max tow package for an F150 can drag 14,500lbs around, and that requires a lot of heat exchangers in the front. This means you need a lot of frontal area. And because one f150 configuration needs that, all F150 configurations get it.

Of course it's even more pronounced on the more capable trucks that have payload capacities over 2 tons, and are rated to tow 30-35k.

There's definitely some macho design involved (it would be fascinating to see just how compact they could make a given truck without sacrificing capability, comfort or price) but a huge reason these trucks are as big as they are boils down to capabilities and customer expectations ("It better ride great with 1800lbs in the bed!" Or "I don't want to feel it struggle when towing 10k!") Comparing them to smaller, less capable vehicles seems off base to me, and I'm saying that as the 3 time owner of a mini truck.

Pedestrian deaths are bad, but I'm not sure it all comes back to more trucks and SUVs entirely. The increase in deaths also matches the timeline for smart phone adoption  and touch screens in cars pretty well. The majority of pedestrian deaths occur outside of crosswalks, and involve drug or alcohol use by the driver, the pedestrian or both. And outside of 2020, miles driven per capita increased a lot too, so increases in accidents are not really surprising with more miles traveled.

I HATE bloated hoodlines on trucks. Rather see small pickups start looking something like this: 

I'd rather utilize the volume gained with the removal of the ICE in the form of a shorter vehicle, or more bed volume than in a frunk. Imagine, if you could gain 2-3 feet you could have a double-cab pickup with a full-sized bed with the same footprint as the current 5-6' beds. That's one of the reasons that I dislike the cybertruck -  the thing is immense, with a good chunk of it in that unnecessary nose.

That said, the pedestrian death rate isn't exactly skyrocketing, and I'd attribute it to inattention far more than bloated vehicles.

tremm said:

In reply to Chris_V :

And, uh, the stereotypical truck/suv driver on their phone not paying attention or giving care to operating their big ass status symbol

If you had actually read what I typed instead of jumping on the "Post" button, you would have seen the rest of that sentence where I said "(as does, of course, using phones while driving)" Which still proves my point: it's not the design of the vehicles that is causing the rise in deaths. And knock it off with the "status symbol" closed minded garbage.

GIRTHQUAKE said:

 I could see the massive center screen as being a safety feature if it's built so you can visualize road maps without having to fully take ones eye's off the road. But if Ford DOES send ads to it like they've patented, I will never buy.

One notable detail about the "commercial", "base" model of the lightning is that all of them are AWD. That's one hell of a selling point on top of all the EV benefits.

93EXCivic said:

Erich said:

I know this isn't a popular stance here, but as a city-dweller, I sure wish they could lower the hoodline a bit instead of just making an enormous frunk. It's an extremely fast, heavy, enormous truck that has terrible sightlines. There's next to no consideration for anyone this truck inevitably crashes into baked into the design. 

The frunk, speed, and capability is cool for the driver, but all of it makes this truck more dangerous to everyone sharing the road with it. 

Totally agree. Trucks are just needless tall especially in the front. Makes it hard to see in front of and the beds are just a pain in the ass to load. Took this photo of my Ranger next to some hideous GMC thing the other day.

Jalopnik recently had an article about how pedestrian deaths are through the roof despite the lockdowns, and it's largely due to how big vehicles have become- Here's an article about from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, though to be frank it's only going to say things we already know.

I'm sorry but bike and pedestrian death are at least part the fault of the biker/pedestrians.  Not watching traffic, headphones-ear buds on, riding / walking  at night without lights or even reflective clothing.  
   Riding at or over the bike path line. Riding two or more abreast. Weaving around traffic, ignoring the fact that doors can open and close the intended path. 
 Running red lights. Hitching a bumper ride, wheelies, no hands. Trick riding ( in traffic) 

      Some or most of those things I did as a kid/young person. Well, because I was immortal, others would look out for me, more important to be cool than careful etc. 

stuart in mn said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to stuart in mn :

Given who his brother was, he should be funny.

Chris Farley was his cousin.

Jim Farley is an interesting guy, for one he's a real car guy and not just an executive.  He's owned some very cool hot rods.

Shows how much I know about our CEO....  

STM317 said:

Trucks are designed with maximum capability in mind. An F150's Max payload is comfortably over 3200lbs, and that requires some big springs and travel. That equates to a taller vehicle, and because 1 F150 is capable of that, they're all very similar even if they're not configured or rated for that capacity.

Except, an F150 on its bumpstops is nowhere near using up the wheelwells.  I don't think it even meets the fender lip.  There's easily a foot of extraneous height that is only there because it's there.

Back to the topic at hand, I'm really curious about the Vehicle-to-grid capability Ford is touting. 

Whole home backup batteries like Tesla's Powerwall are very pricy - about ~$10k installed for 14 kWh. Max continuous power is 5kW, which won't run an electric dryer AFAIK. 

Ford is saying the F-150, with the 80-amp charge station, will provide up to 9.6 kw. That's enough for most homes, and the giant battery pack should be enough to power through days of power outage. 

I wonder if the Lightning's battery pack would be up to using as a backup to a rooftop solar array. I've read in the past that EV packs and home use packs use quite different chemistry due to the way the charge/discharge cycles are handled, and that EV batteries won't work well long term for whole home battery backups.

If the F-150 can be a workable solar battery, it's a ridiculous bargain. 

It only works as a solar battery if it's at home during the day while charging and at home at night while discharging :)

It'll be interesting to see how many people use the backfeed setup. I wonder if the charger is smart enough to act as an isolator switch when the grid goes down. It's definitely going to require more wiring than just plugging into an existing socket in the garage. The concept is really good but the implementation may be further than many people are willing to go. It would be easy to do in my own garage where the car is parked right beside the main panel.

Do we know actual battery capacity yet?

Keith Tanner said:

It only works as a solar battery if it's at home during the day while charging and at home at night while discharging :)

yeah that would make it a somewhat limited use case, although I know a lot of folks who plan on working from home long-term that could make that work to a certain extent. 

Erich said:

Whole home backup batteries like Tesla's Powerwall are very pricy - about ~$10k installed for 14 kWh. Max continuous power is 5kW, which won't run an electric dryer AFAIK. 

Ford is saying the F-150, with the 80-amp charge station, will provide up to 9.6 kw. That's enough for most homes, and the giant battery pack should be enough to power through days of power outage. 

A hair dryer is more like 1800w.

C&D was predicting 115kw for the F150.  That's a ton.  If I was running without power, I would probably skip the hot showers and not use the stove and I could probably go 2 weeks on that battery.

What do you mean by different chemistry?  Aren't they both basically stacks of 18650 batteries?

I saw something on Autoblog, I think, that mentioned Ford is planning to set the Lightning/smart charger combo to work as a load balancing system for houses that are billed by time of use for electricity.  So if your electricity is more expensive between 8am and 7pm, for example, the house will draw power from the truck during those hours, then automatically switch back to the grid and recharge the truck when the price of electricity goes down after 7pm.  They said that's just a thing Ford will implement in the future, no plans for timing though.  I'm sure Ford has already thought of this, but I wonder what that does to battery longevity.

ProDarwin said:

Erich said:

Whole home backup batteries like Tesla's Powerwall are very pricy - about ~$10k installed for 14 kWh. Max continuous power is 5kW, which won't run an electric dryer AFAIK. 

Ford is saying the F-150, with the 80-amp charge station, will provide up to 9.6 kw. That's enough for most homes, and the giant battery pack should be enough to power through days of power outage. 

A hair dryer is more like 1800w.

What do you mean by different chemistry?  Aren't they both basically stacks of 18650 batteries?

sorry, wasn't specific- I was thinking of an electric clothes dryer, not hair dryer.

I'm remembering an interview from years ago when Tesla was asked why they didn't use their cars for vehicle-to-grid solutions like this, and their answer was that batteries for cars and battery packs for home are fundamentally different, and using an EV battery to power your home would cause battery life degradation.

Not sure how they're different - it could be chemistry of the packs, it could be battery management systems, could be a combination. 

ProDarwin said:

Erich said:

Whole home backup batteries like Tesla's Powerwall are very pricy - about ~$10k installed for 14 kWh. Max continuous power is 5kW, which won't run an electric dryer AFAIK. 

Ford is saying the F-150, with the 80-amp charge station, will provide up to 9.6 kw. That's enough for most homes, and the giant battery pack should be enough to power through days of power outage. 

A hair dryer is more like 1800w.

C&D was predicting 115kw for the F150.  That's a ton.  If I was running without power, I would probably skip the hot showers and not use the stove and I could probably go 2 weeks on that battery.

What do you mean by different chemistry?  Aren't they both basically stacks of 18650 batteries?

When his city was out of power for a while, my then-employer's brother powered his house essentials off of an Acura Vigor and a cheap inverter.  (Might have been an RL.  Irrelevant)

All he needed was power for the water heater, because hot showers, and the wi-fi,  so he could work.  Internet still worked because telcos are almost as paranoid as the military as far as maintaining uptime is concerned.

Erich said:

I'm remembering an interview from years ago when Tesla was asked why they didn't use their cars for vehicle-to-grid solutions like this, and their answer was that batteries for cars and battery packs for home are fundamentally different, and using an EV battery to power your home would cause battery life degradation.

Hm.  I thought the original story for the PowerWall was that Tesla was going to recycle the batteries out of old cars that no longer held enough charge to be useful for EVs and use them for home power where energy density was less important.

Schmidlap said:

I saw something on Autoblog, I think, that mentioned Ford is planning to set the Lightning/smart charger combo to work as a load balancing system for houses that are billed by time of use for electricity.  So if your electricity is more expensive between 8am and 7pm, for example, the house will draw power from the truck during those hours, then automatically switch back to the grid and recharge the truck when the price of electricity goes down after 7pm.  They said that's just a thing Ford will implement in the future, no plans for timing though.  I'm sure Ford has already thought of this, but I wonder what that does to battery longevity.

Slow charge/discharge is far less damaging than rapid. Based on the way non-Nissan EV batteries are lasting, I don't think it would make a significant difference to overall longevity. Towing with fast charging will be worse. 

A blue collar guy in my group was chatting with me on the way in. He DDs a Dodge pickup and has a bike for fun, but doesn't get to have fun often. Moderate income, left voting habits. He wants a Lightning to replace his truck and bike. He referenced that it was going to quickly be cheaper than operating his Dodge, and the buy-in being so low made it easy. He loved the frunk and the ability to power the house. He especially said how much he hated how the Cybertruck looked like a toy that didn't solve any problems he had.

Just an opinion from a non GRMer guy.

The general opinion around my wife's office - a heavy highway construction company - is that her electric car is cool, and "as soon as Ford makes an electric F150 I'm buying one". Opinions on the Cybertruck in her office were more mixed, as they usually are :)

Keith Tanner said:

The general opinion around my wife's office - a heavy highway construction company - is that her electric car is cool, and "as soon as Ford makes an electric F150 I'm buying one". Opinions on the Cybertruck in her office were more mixed, as they usually are :)

There's something real to this that I can't put my finger on. If there were no Tesla, and Ford still was going to release this truck on that date with those specs at that price, I'll bet fewer people would buy it.

I'm the only EV driver at this office of ~800 people. This guy knows me, and sees me driving it around and we've talked cars a few times. He picked me up when it was in the bodyshop for the missing trim parts when I bought it. Any basic objection of an EV has been answered just by being familiar with it sitting there in the same parking lot as his truck. I suspect the early adopters are making it plain to see that it totally works to ditch the ICE.

I feel like Tesla helped move the EV from 'curiosity of the self righteous' to 'aspirational' for a lot of the populace. The fact there are a fair number of them around helped make the idea of an EV normal, but the speed, the cool factor, and even the price made Joe Public want one. GM is cashing in on some of that image with the new Hummer.

I think Ford making something as pedestrian (for lack of a better word) as an F-150 into an EV, and then basically not upcharging for it (well, not much) will make them common place. This is one of the vehicles that can make EV the norm in the US. All of which helps with the charging infrastructure and battery advancement that will help make them the majority choice in time.

Instead of having a special reason to buy EV people will drift to having a special need to buy a gas burner. But I think it all starts here. 

ultraclyde said:

I feel like Tesla helped move the EV from 'curiosity of the self righteous' to 'aspirational' for a lot of the populace. The fact there are a fair number of them around helped make the idea of an EV normal, but the speed, the cool factor, and even the price made Joe Public want one. GM is cashing in on some of that image with the new Hummer.

I think Ford making something as pedestrian (for lack of a better word) as an F-150 into an EV, and then basically not upcharging for it (well, not much) will make them common place. This is one of the vehicles that can make EV the norm in the US. All of which helps with the charging infrastructure and battery advancement that will help make them the majority choice in time.

Instead of having a special reason to buy EV people will drift to having a special need to buy a gas burner. But I think it all starts here. 

Well put.

So while I don't want to own a Tesla for the time being, I am grateful for what they've done to the market.

The real question is what will Brodozers do once the real powerhouses on the market are all electric? Giant speakers to broadcast fake electric motor noise while they drag 4 foot tow mirrors around?

Our Pacifica isn't very good. Tunawife, the other day, asked me as we drove away from our house "How long until they make an acceptable and affordable EV minivan?" I assured her that I think this is our last ICE minivan.

BTW, Jalopnik has info on the "Pro" version of the truck. I have to say, the base model looks pretty nice. 

https://jalopnik.com/the-most-affordable-ford-f-150-lightning-is-officially-1846956486

So, Ford has released details on the commercial versions of the Lightning.

The entry level Pro ($40k) gets 230 mile range, 426hp/775ft-lbs, 2k payload and 5k-7.7k lbs of towing. Base 32amp charger included.

The optional 300 mile range bumps power to 563hp/775ft-lbs, 2k payload and up to 10k towing. It also includes an 80amp AC fast charger for home use. All this for an extra $10k.

There are 3 charger options (32 amp, 48amp, and 80 amp) that sound like they can be ordered ala carte, but we'll see in time if that's true or not. They mention "dual onboard chargers" multiple times with the implication that it helps to speed up charging, but don't go into much detail.

Being commercially geared trucks, they lose some exterior brightwork, come with vinyl seats, they ditch the massive vertical touchscreen seen in the debut images, and they have actual knobs/buttons for HVAC:

It sounds like they also include software/connectivity suite that fleets will probably enjoy but might not matter much to an average one-off buyer.

Oh that's the screen they use on the normal F150's.

ultraclyde said:

I feel like Tesla helped move the EV from 'curiosity of the self righteous' to 'aspirational' for a lot of the populace. The fact there are a fair number of them around helped make the idea of an EV normal, but the speed, the cool factor, and even the price made Joe Public want one. GM is cashing in on some of that image with the new Hummer.

I think Ford making something as pedestrian (for lack of a better word) as an F-150 into an EV, and then basically not upcharging for it (well, not much) will make them common place. This is one of the vehicles that can make EV the norm in the US. All of which helps with the charging infrastructure and battery advancement that will help make them the majority choice in time.

Instead of having a special reason to buy EV people will drift to having a special need to buy a gas burner. But I think it all starts here. 

Agreed 100%. Tesla showed that an EV didn't have to be a weird little thing that demanded sacrifices to own, it could actually be a car you might want regardless of how it's propelled. Or at least, you didn't have to make sacrifices to own one. The F150 will make EVs normal which is not as sexy but which is an important next step. It will be interesting to see how the dealers respond, I can see some of them billing themselves as "EV specialists". Which brings up an interesting thought - maintaining a stock of EVs on a sales lot is going to take some planning. You're not going to want to let them go dead, will we see big octopus battery maintainers?

About battery advancement: I think that will continue to be a gradual process, not a revolutionary one. Ars Technica actually just published a fairly in-depth article on what's been going on while everyone's been waiting for the big breakthrough. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

At least you shouldn't have to negotiate a full tank of gas on delivery.