I did a 500-mile trip yesterday in my Ford F-250 project truck, which meant I had plenty of time to think about what vehicles I need to own next (is there anything else to think about on a road trip)?
The mission was simple: Drive 250 miles from Daytona Beach to Tallahassee, pick up an enclosed trailer with our LFX-swapped Miata in it, then drive home. And because my truck is a gas V10, I stopped at the 200 mile mark to fill its empty tank, then again at that same station on the way home. Each stop was about 20 minutes--at fuel stops I always check the oil, use the restroom, walk around a little bit, and have a snack to break up the monotony.
Here's the interesting part: That station had a bank of Electrify America DC fast chargers right next to it. Which got me thinking: If my current truck only goes 200 miles on a tank, and drinks $80 worth of fuel when I fill it up... why aren't I towing with a Ford F-150 Lightning?
I bet I could buy and run one of those for less than the total cost of ownership of my Super Duty, and it would be way more comfortable/faster/better/etc. Then I got home and read our post about that cross-country Rivian trip and became even more convinced I needed an electric truck.
So, what's the hive think? Best idea ever? Insane? Not ready for prime time?
I haven't given Ford my $100 reservation fee yet... but I'm listening.
moxnix
Dork
11/12/21 4:04 p.m.
Please do. As the owner of a V10 gas van I am trying to make the math work but have not gotten it there yet.
Yeah do it. Let me spend your money and live vicariously though you. The new Lightnings are rad.
In your case, where (I'm assuming...) you have access to other tow vehicles when you need to tow serious distances, I'd say go for it.
Lease it. I believe it's easier to write off, tax-wise. So at the end of the lease, you don't care that the EV tech is now nearly obsolete and you give it back to Ford.
Is the miata the biggest thing you have to tow?
In reply to iansane :
No, and this doesn't work if I borrow a different truck for longer trips (where's the fun in that) I'd be towing a 350Z to VIR occasionally, and to Road Atlanta/CMP somewhat frequently.
The biggest issue is that filling up the tank on an F-250 takes 5 minutes plus however long it takes to get on/off the freeway (probably another 5 minutes), whereas Motor Trend says it's 41 minutes to charge a Lightning from 10% to 85% (plus the same 5 minutes to get on/off).
So let's assume for the sake of argument that the Lightning can tow the same 200 miles that the F-250 can do on a tank (*). If so then every charging/fueling stop adds 36 minutes to your trip. Not a big deal for a 200 mile tow, but a 600 mile trip to VIR is an extra 60-90 minutes depending on whether it takes 2 or 3 stops (looks like 600 miles on Google maps, so it's going to depend on charging station placement).
(*) Advertised range on the Lightning is 300 miles with the big battery, but I suspect that drops a LOT if you put an enclosed trailer behind it. 200 is a guess, I wouldn't be surprised if it was 150.
Would it make more sense to go with a F150 Hybrid? Way better mileage than the V10, but quicker refueling than the Lightning, plus built in onboard generator. I know, not as cool as the Lightning, though. 
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Nobody likes making a trip take longer. But that extra 40 minutes saves $70 or so. Who wouldn't like to be paid $115 an hour to rest in their truck?
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:
The biggest issue is that filling up the tank on an F-250 takes 5 minutes plus however long it takes to get on/off the freeway (probably another 5 minutes), whereas Motor Trend says it's 41 minutes to charge a Lightning from 10% to 85% (plus the same 5 minutes to get on/off).
So let's assume for the sake of argument that the Lightning can tow the same 200 miles that the F-250 can do on a tank (*). If so then every charging/fueling stop adds 36 minutes to your trip. Not a big deal for a 200 mile tow, but a 600 mile trip to VIR is an extra 60-90 minutes depending on whether it takes 2 or 3 stops (looks like 600 miles on Google maps, so it's going to depend on charging station placement).
(*) Advertised range on the Lightning is 300 miles with the big battery, but I suspect that drops a LOT if you put an enclosed trailer behind it. 200 is a guess, I wouldn't be surprised if it was 150.
You're saying it's a 5 minute stop, but Tom says that his real world experience was 20 minutes. When you're gassing up that F250, you're standing there doing nothing but refilling the tank. When you're charging, you are free to do other things like eat or walk around or check your email or look at the birdies in the trees or whatever. So the difference isn't quite as big as you might think.
And if you look at the total amount of time spent charging/refueling, the Lightning would probably win hands down because the F250 will require a trip to a dedicated refueling center every single time it needs fuel, and that's not always a 5 minute onramp/offramp situation. The Lightning will recharge every night so it will only require a discrete charging stop when it is being asked to go beyond its onboard range.
Tom, I think it would be really interesting for you to try this. I don't know if you'll get a chance to do so for years unless you can wrangle a press vehicle, as I suspect Ford's battery supply is far smaller than the demand for this truck. They've really built a winner here and they are battery constrained.
Keith Tanner said:
You're saying it's a 5 minute stop, but Tom says that his real world experience was 20 minutes. When you're gassing up that F250, you're standing there doing nothing but refilling the tank. When you're charging, you are free to do other things like eat or walk around or check your email or look at the birdies in the trees or whatever. So the difference isn't quite as big as you might think.
Ah, I missed Tom's statement about 20 minutes.
Personally I don't hang out at the gas station any longer than absolutely necessary, especially when I'm blocking two pumps with my tow rig (because at the stations around here there's usually nowhere else to park it). Checking oil happens while the pump is running. So for me it really is 5 minutes.
I'm assuming someone intentionally "missed" your point about actual refuel time.
That being said, I think the time works out fine, depending on cost and availability of said charging. I'm no where near to living in modern times, so have no clue where they stand
If you look at the real world value of the 250, and yearly operating cost, and the price ov the new 150, + operating costs, I'll bet you could buy a LOT of gas for the difference
I also don't know the tow rating of the ev 150... I do know, having towed a lot with a 150 w/ a 12.5K tow rating, (starting to be less than safe around 9 K) it will only tow - safely - about 1/2 what that 250 will (no matter what the bean counting department at the factory "rates" it at)
If you have found the 250 is twice the tow capacity you need, and have the finatial ability to replace with new, then an ev 150 vs a new gas 150, might work out.
My stops go either way when I'm towing. Sometimes it's a straight gas and go, sometimes it's gas, park, pee, get drink, check load in the trailer, etc. I often welcome the chance to stretch my legs on a long day, and I never leave a vehicle at the pump :)
When driving under DOT hour of service regulations, there is an occasional minimum length stop just so you can keep your head screwed on and not drive into a bridge abutment or something. The HOS regs actually mesh reasonably well with EVs.
We'll get some idea of how this all works as the guy with the Rivian crosses the country. It will be interesting to see how it differs from the towing experience most of us have done.
Wait for real world information on how much the Lightning's range is reduced when it's used for towing.
stuart in mn said:
Wait for real world information on how much the Lightning's range is reduced when it's used for towing.
I'm guessing part of the point is to be one of the people accurately measuring and dispersing that information. I would definitely follow along.
It will of course be reduced, just like the range of any other towing vehicle is reduced. It might hit the EV harder because any braking done by the trailer is wasted energy instead of regenerated.
And given our current state of news dissemination, it will either be the worst thing ever or it will be the best thing ever, because nuance gets no clicks.
To really do a proper comparison, there needs to be a gas truck running along the same route. A realistic gas truck, not a driver who's peeing in bottles and is driving 18 hours a day. Start and finish the clock at the time they cross the threshold of the hotel each day. Put them both under DOT HOS regs because that is an accepted (and required, if you're a pro!) level of daily driving to get to your destination with a reasonable chance of not wrecking.
Why are you only getting 200 miles of range on your F250?
My F250 was heavily loaded with tools all the time, and I routinely got nearly 600 miles per tankful. It would drop to about 500 when I towed, but I almost always towed heavy.
I'd be very interested to read about real world experience with the Lightning, but it's too rich for my blood.
Plus, all my fuel is free right now, so electric will never make sense for me until I retire.
Where is the purchase price in your calculations? Isn't the F250 paid for?
How will a new $70K truck be cheaper?
My 2010 Dodge Cummins has spent most of its life towing a 28' trailer, and has a lifetime fuel consumption of 12.9 mpg. With a 31 gallon tank, that means an average range of right at 400 miles if I run it dry coasting up to the pump. In reality, I don't like getting below 100 miles because of where I tend to tow (legitimate 100+ mile stretches with no diesel) and because of the sheer amount of hassle that would happen if I ran out. So I don't really expect to go past 300 miles on a tank.
Buying a new truck is almost never cheaper than keeping an old one running. But Tom is offering to give us realistic, real-world experience with the new generation of vehicles that's coming on his dime. I think we should take him up on it :)
Keith Tanner said:
My 2010 Dodge Cummins has spent most of its life towing a 28' trailer, and has a lifetime fuel consumption of 12.9 mpg. With a 31 gallon tank, that means an average range of right at 400 miles if I run it dry coasting up to the pump. In reality, I don't like getting below 100 miles because of where I tend to tow (legitimate 100+ mile stretches with no diesel) and because of the sheer amount of hassle that would happen if I ran out. So I don't really expect to go past 300 miles on a tank.
The times I've towed to/from your part of the country I've kept a 5 gallon jug of diesel in the bed of the truck because of those stretches. :) My current truck is similar to yours in range, but my previous Chevy only had the 25 gallon tank and so the useful range on it was in the low 200s.
Are there charging stations inside the San Rafael Swell?
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Yep.
Even your 300 mile range is 50% more than what Tom is saying. 200 is really low.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Like I said, I'll be thrilled to read Tom's real world experiences, but the title of this thread says it's about saving money, and I could use a little explanation before I buy into that.
