Tires and sidewall stiffness - minivan edition

Folks, I need tires on the Caravan. I have Hankook H727 on there now, and they're not good. The claimed 100K treadwear has been more like 50K, and they weren't any better than the cruddy tires it came with.

I value wet traction, noise, and treadlife, and I know how to search for all of those things.

After having those mounted, we drove a long way on the highway, and I actually pulled over twice and had TunaDad check the suspension once we got to his house because of how squishy it was. Now I understand that this is a minivan, but what happens is that a quick flick of the steering wheel results in oscillation rather than transition. So it feels like I am driving a wet noodle, wiggling and wobbling all over. I believe this is due to sidewall stiffness.

It's a pretty tall tire, and I am not sure how much that kills any idea of better stiffness, but I have driven a few taller tires which have not been this bad.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?message=singleSize&tireMake=Hankook&tireModel=Optimo+H727&partnum=265TR6H727

Any pet tires for DD use, or ideas for how to search for sidewall stiffness would be super helpful.

Similar issue with truck tires. I have had the best success by going with a tire rated for significantly more weight than I'm actually going to be carrying.

Get a more performance oriented tire if you can, and something with as over-speced a load rating as possible. That should lead to less flexy sidewalls and tread. Also, ignore the placard pressure and experiment a bit to see what works. Usually, going a few PSI higher than placard pressure ends up working out well in those situations (as long as it's not enough to cause center wear).

rslifkin wrote: Get a more performance oriented tire if you can, and something with as over-speced a load rating as possible. That should lead to less flexy sidewalls and tread. Also, ignore the placard pressure and experiment a bit to see what works. Usually, going a few PSI higher than placard pressure ends up working out well in those situations (as long as it's not enough to cause center wear).

Good point on the last one, my practice has always been to bring it to 10% below max when it's cold, so 40 psi when the max is rated at 44 sitting in the driveway.

I actually have no clue what the placard says, maybe 34?

If you put similar oe specs tires I'm surprised they last that long. The oe spec is maxed when those pigs are empty. Spec pressure is about 34.

I'd go to a higher speed rating which should also increase the load rating.

Even at the same load rating, higher speed rated tires will generally be a bit stiffer and more responsive.

Don't forget, on a minivan, the suspension is probably made of marshmallows and not helping anything...

rslifkin wrote: Even at the same load rating, higher speed rated tires will generally be a bit stiffer and more responsive. Don't forget, on a minivan, the suspension is probably made of marshmallows and not helping anything...

Last sentence is true for sure, but it was way better before these tires.

Before these tires you also had 50k less miles on that suspension.

Pet tire recommendation: Cooper CS5 Grand Touring (T-speed rated). Reasons:

• 80,000 mile treadwear warranty
• designed specifically to have amazing wet performance
• quiet relative to competitors in the market
• is Cooper's "premium" grade tire and should handle well
• (full disclosure: I work for Cooper and am in charge of this tire line. Does that make me a little biased? Maybe. But it also means that I've got access to back to back, scientific testing of this tire and it's competitors. Take it for what you will.)

I'd recommend against going to a tire with a higher load rating. It won't necessarily have better sidewall stiffness.

That oscillation after a sudden steering input can be a function of tire construction too, not just sidewall thickness. Try looking for tires that have more than one polyester ply in both the tread and sidewall (the information is stamped on the sidewall). Typically more plies will give greater strength and sometimes better damping characteristics.

Call TireRack. 60% of the time they're right every time.

I went up a speed rating when replacing the tires on our Outback and am happy with the results. Guessing you will have a similar experience. Tires I put on are Continental TrueContact in H speed rating.

Michelin have about the stiffest sidewall at regular passenger car type sidewall heights.

I was happy with the handling and wet weather performance of Continental Crosscontact I had on Sedona.

I didn't get the treadwear I would have liked, but it was mainly used in town. Overall the tires handled and performed well in the wet and dry, but last winter the snow performance was lacking.

I just replaced the Continentals with General Altimax RT43's in size 225/70-16 yesterday, with hopes of better wear.

Unfortunately I don't have enough miles to give any real feedback on handling.

I will be putting about 200 miles on them tomorrow, and then another 1000 next week. I can provide feedback on them after that if it would help.

jstand wrote: I was happy with the handling and wet weather performance of Continental Crosscontact I had on Sedona. I didn't get the treadwear I would have liked, but it was mainly used in town. Overall the tires handled and performed well in the wet and dry, but last winter the snow performance was lacking. I just replaced the Continentals with General Altimax RT43's in size 225/70-16 yesterday, with hopes of better wear. Unfortunately I don't have enough miles to give any real feedback on handling. I will be putting about 200 miles on them tomorrow, and then another 1000 next week. I can provide feedback on them after that if it would help.

Obviously you cant comment on treadwear, but that tire is coming up in my searches and I would welcome your input. I tend to stay away from certain brands, and General is on the fence on this regard.

Nick (picaso) Comstock wrote: Michelin have about the stiffest sidewall at regular passenger car type sidewall heights.

I love a Michelin, but they price like the rubber is molded with unicorn tears

ShawneeCreek wrote: Pet tire recommendation: Cooper CS5 Grand Touring (T-speed rated). Reasons: + 80,000 mile treadwear warranty + designed specifically to have amazing wet performance + quiet relative to competitors in the market + is Cooper's "premium" grade tire and should handle well + (full disclosure: I work for Cooper and am in charge of this tire line. Does that make me a little biased? Maybe. But it also means that I've got access to back to back, scientific testing of this tire and it's competitors. Take it for what you will.) I'd recommend against going to a tire with a higher load rating. It won't necessarily have better sidewall stiffness. That oscillation after a sudden steering input can be a function of tire construction too, not just sidewall thickness. Try looking for tires that have more than one polyester ply in both the tread and sidewall (the information is stamped on the sidewall). Typically more plies will give greater strength and sometimes better damping characteristics.

Since you're more informed than I am, can you tell me any data you have gathered on the unfortunate tire that I have? I can't figure out how to look for plies when searching for replacements either, though obviously I can look at the sidewall on the tires I have, I have nothing to compare them against.

JohnRW1621 wrote: Before these tires you also had 50k less miles on that suspension.

Night and day following the tire swap. The very day I went on a trip with the then-brand-new Hankooks I pulled over twice, once to check the lugs and once to check the pressures, because I couldn't believe it was that bad.

ShawneeCreek wrote: Pet tire recommendation: Cooper CS5 Grand Touring (T-speed rated). Reasons: + 80,000 mile treadwear warranty + designed specifically to have amazing wet performance + quiet relative to competitors in the market + is Cooper's "premium" grade tire and should handle well + (full disclosure: I work for Cooper and am in charge of this tire line. Does that make me a little biased? Maybe. But it also means that I've got access to back to back, scientific testing of this tire and it's competitors. Take it for what you will.) I'd recommend against going to a tire with a higher load rating. It won't necessarily have better sidewall stiffness. That oscillation after a sudden steering input can be a function of tire construction too, not just sidewall thickness. Try looking for tires that have more than one polyester ply in both the tread and sidewall (the information is stamped on the sidewall). Typically more plies will give greater strength and sometimes better damping characteristics.

Also, ten years ago I had Cooper Wintermaster tires on my 2WD truck, and that thing was an animal in the snow. I also drove them during the summer, and they lasted and lasted. I am a Cooper fan after that. Thanks for making great tires.

In reply to tuna55:

I'll provide some feedback after getting some miles on them tomorrow.

Right now the van is at the dealer for them to do some warranty/recall work. They are replacing the front lower control arms and aligning it.

tuna55 wrote: Since you're more informed than I am, can you tell me any data you have gathered on the unfortunate tire that I have? I can't figure out how to look for plies when searching for replacements either, though obviously I can look at the sidewall on the tires I have, I have nothing to compare them against.

I looked and I don't seem to have that information, unfortunately. I'm guessing that it is 2-ply just because 225/65R16 is such a large size (for a passenger car anyways). This was more of a check that you could do at the tire shop when you go to buy the tires. Plus, it's only really a general guideline.

Looking at the test data though our tire evaluators (drivers) didn't like the soft handling characteristics of the H727 compared to the CS5. They noticed that same lack of lateral damping that you are talking about. They did like the Falken Sincera SN250 A/S. But it seems a little down on wet grip compared to the CS5. But it might be worth considering.

tuna55 wrote:

JohnRW1621 wrote: Before these tires you also had 50k less miles on that suspension.

Night and day following the tire swap. The very day I went on a trip with the then-brand-new Hankooks I pulled over twice, once to check the lugs and once to check the pressures, because I couldn't believe it was that bad.

This might just be a case of going from old, dried out tires to new, flexible tires. I did the same thing when I replaced tires on my del Sol. It was so much softer I swore that I had a flat tire and had to pull over and check. But it was mainly just switching to new tires that did it. Now that's not to say that was the only cause, but it was certainly part of it.

tuna55 said: Also, ten years ago I had Cooper Wintermaster tires on my 2WD truck, and that thing was an animal in the snow. I also drove them during the summer, and they lasted and lasted. I am a Cooper fan after that. Thanks for making great tires.

You are welcome. It's always good to hear that people appreciate our products.

I will always recommend the Conti DWS for daily drivers. No idea about price or availability in your size, but they're the best all-rounders (no pun intended) I've ever owned.

From what tirerack offers in that size I'd probably go with the H rated General Altimax RT43.

In reply to ShawneeCreek: Cooper tires aren't carried by Tire Rack, it'd be nice to be able to compare your product to the other stuff that's out there. Out of 4 cars I have Coopers on two of them and they seem very good so far.

Tuna: When I went from "C" load rated tires on the suburban to regular P-metric tires the squish and roll as you describe it got much worse. For you I'd look into a higher than usual load rating or possibly a larger wheel size to get a shorter/stiffer sidewall. Maybe there is something on CL in an optional size that you can pick up cheap.

on our 2010 Ody, I am running +1 Yokohama Envigor and I'm very happy with them. Because I have real winter every year, the OE 16" wheels are wearing dedicated winter tires and I bought a tire and wheel package in 17" for non-winter use. treadwear seems good, wet road grip is good, they're quiet and not squishy.

KyAllroad wrote: In reply to ShawneeCreek: Cooper tires aren't carried by Tire Rack, it'd be nice to be able to compare your product to the other stuff that's out there. Out of 4 cars I have Coopers on two of them and they seem very good so far. Tuna: When I went from "C" load rated tires on the suburban to regular P-metric tires the squish and roll as you describe it got much worse. For you I'd look into a higher than usual load rating or possibly a larger wheel size to get a shorter/stiffer sidewall. Maybe there is something on CL in an optional size that you can pick up cheap.

Cooper tires do seem hard to find - I have to pick up the phone instead of the mouse