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Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude)
Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) MegaDork
12/15/20 7:04 a.m.

If you want a reasonably priced tire that handles abuse on the track and does a good job on the street in wet or dry situations, you might consider the Sumitomo HTR Z 5. I run the predecessor, HTR Z 3, on the P71. Even as heavy as it is, the tire can handle the abuse and has very good behavior at the limits. It's not the fasted tire by far but I like the way they handle. That is probably what will go on the G35 next time around. 

red_stapler
red_stapler SuperDork
12/15/20 7:24 a.m.
Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) said:

If you want a reasonably priced tire that handles abuse on the track and does a good job on the street in wet or dry situations, you might consider the Sumitomo HTR Z 5. I run the predecessor, HTR Z 3, on the P71. Even as heavy as it is, the tire can handle the abuse and has very good behavior at the limits. It's not the fasted tire by far but I like the way they handle. That is probably what will go on the G35 next time around. 

The Z5 isn't as good as the Z3 so you might end up disappointed.  The Falken FK510 is a better successor.

CAinCA
CAinCA GRM+ Memberand Reader
12/15/20 11:44 a.m.
czerka said:

In reply to accordionfolder :

Car is bone stock, as is the alignment.  Now that you mention it, most of the wear came from the first couple sessions where I was running normal drive to work 33 PSI.  Once I lowered the pressures, the wear wasn't nearly as bad.  It was only the front left that wore this bad.  The front right had some chunking but nothing like the left, and same thing, once I lowered the psi the wear slowed down.

You should have started with HIGHER tire pressures, especially in the front. The AS tires have a soft sidewall. Pushing the AS tires hard makes the sidewall roll over and you wind up on the outside edge of the tire. 

Think of them like a balloon. If there isn't much pressure inside it's easy to deform the balloon. If there's a lot of pressure it's harder to deform.

On my GTI with limited camber and Pilot Sport AS3 tires I ran the fronts at 45psi and the rears around 38 psi hot. Next time I'd start at 40/40 and see how the sidewalls look after the first session. 

Tire Rack - TIRE TECH: AIR PRESSURE FOR COMPETITION TIRES

czerka
czerka New Reader
12/15/20 3:50 p.m.

In reply to sergio :

Track was MSR Houston

 

In reply to CAinCA :

It was after the second maybe third session that I started checking pressures.  Coming off the track the front left was reading over 50psi, pretty close to the max psi rating, and the front right was around 40psi.  That was starting at 33psi.  I lowered the fronts while hot to 35psi.  The next session right rose to about 40 again but the left went up to 50, so I lowered both down to a hot 35psi again.  This I think was too far, the morning after the event when I went to fill the tires up the front left was down to 17psi.  MSRH has a corner called the Launch where you go up over a crest and turn on the other side, I lost all confidence going thru that corner as I could feel the left tire being so squishy. 

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
12/15/20 3:57 p.m.

Pretty sure we've all munched a set of all seasons when we started. It happens. A combination of pressures and lack of camber and overdriving and tires that aren't up to the task and all of that together does them in. 

I think the idea is that you're not trying to just fix one thing, but a whole combination of things, and your origional question of what tires is a good one. 

For what it's worth, the launch is probably the best feature at MSR-H for you as a driver long term. It's the only blind feature on the track and forces you to really think about what you're doing setup wise before a corner in a way that no other part of the track does. 

ztnedman1
ztnedman1 Reader
12/16/20 8:32 a.m.

Uniroyal Tigerpaw touring AS.  They have been tried and true tested on many different cars.  Heavy and light, FWD and RWD at NCM for their KOTH race series.  They have acceptable wet performance, are VERY communicative and will not chunk even when overly abused.  They are dirt cheap as well.

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
12/16/20 9:38 a.m.

In reply to czerka :

Ah, that high of a pressure will do it! MSR must work the front left. I'm going to repeat my suggestion of rotating tires every so often if you can. Even if you're just doing front to back at the track (i.e. front left to back left). I haven't seen it go quite that badly but NCM contains 2 very fast right sweepers and the track has mostly right hand turns, so it does the same thing. 

Agreed with Seth though, there are a bunch of little things going on, but don't let that turn you off! I'd say if you watch the pressures a bit better that the tire won't chunk next time even if you used the exact same all season next time out to be honest. With that pressure rise on the front left, it's really getting punished. 

sergio
sergio HalfDork
12/16/20 1:39 p.m.

Running CW MSRH has 3 right handers that will punish the LF tire. At the end of the front straight a double apex with negative camber at the second apex. A sharp right after landing at the launch, about 50-60mph. The back straight ends with a tight double apex right. 

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
12/16/20 2:41 p.m.

I'm strongly in the camp of not trying to share street and track duties on the same set of tires.  Street tires aren't designed for it and tend to fall apart like you saw.  A cheap set of wheels with some tires that are better-suited to track duty will save money in the long run and will also keep you from messing up the street wheels at the track.

I'd vote for NT01s or RA1s (the latter if standing water is a concern) on that second set of wheels.  They're forgiving, communicate well, don't age out easily, and tolerate track abuse.  Maybe RS4s instead -- I haven't used them so I can't comment directly.  One downside to RS4s is that they can be hard to find, apparently Hankook doesn't do a very good job of keeping the supply pipeline filled.

red_stapler
red_stapler SuperDork
12/18/20 2:09 p.m.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

One downside to RS4s is that they can be hard to find, apparently Hankook doesn't do a very good job of keeping the supply pipeline filled.

Yeah, they make a batch in the spring and they send over a few containers worth, that has to last the whole year.

iceracer
iceracer MegaDork
12/18/20 5:47 p.m.

I ran two different cars on their stock tires at HPDEs at Lime Rock with no problems with the tires and I didn't baby them.

Maybe years of hard driving FWD cars helped .

One thing I have found that beginners use the brakes too much and they need to learn how to steer with the throttle.

iceracer
iceracer MegaDork
12/18/20 6:02 p.m.

Oh, on the part about summer tires an cold.    I have run the Bridgestones  on my FiST as low as 27F .   One thing,  the tires/car were in my attached garage at much warmer temps. 

I think the warning is more about less traction as the temps drop.

I wish I ha taken tread temps after driving some distance.

iceracer
iceracer MegaDork
12/19/20 7:08 p.m.

In this case, the tire is not at fault.   The driver needs an instructor to show him what he is doing wrong.   Under steer on a race course is not a major problem  enough to cause that kind of wear.   Better tires won't help until he learns how to drive.

I have run thousands ?of laps on street tires,even bias ply, with no abnormal wear.  All in FWD cars.

I once had a small car that I ha on the road, drove a few rally cross's then I drove to Watkins Glen for a two day drivers school, later I drove to Lime Rock for a 10 hr "Little LeMans"  ran practice.  On race day I and my co driver ran half the race on my tires, change to sponsored tires.Same type.   After the race I drove home on my tires.  These were bias-ply and showed no excessive wear.   I think I did replace them later.

In later years I drove my DD driver to Lime Rock and run a track day on the stock tires.  I upped the pressure 3/4 psi.  Tires showed no wear.  This was on three different cars with different tires.

I didn't intend to go this long, just wanted to point out that street tires can be run in an HPDE .

 Faster tires won't help until the drive learns to drive on a race track.

RCV

 

iceracer
iceracer MegaDork
12/19/20 7:23 p.m.

Running that low of pressure didn't help the rollover/wear.

My FiST starts with 39psi front,36 rear and Ford/Bridgestone say to add 4"psi for high speed driving.

OK, now I will shut up.

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
12/19/20 10:12 p.m.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm strongly in the camp of not trying to share street and track duties on the same set of tires.  Street tires aren't designed for it and tend to fall apart like you saw.  A cheap set of wheels with some tires that are better-suited to track duty will save money in the long run and will also keep you from messing up the street wheels at the track.

I'd vote for NT01s or RA1s (the latter if standing water is a concern) on that second set of wheels.  They're forgiving, communicate well, don't age out easily, and tolerate track abuse.  Maybe RS4s instead -- I haven't used them so I can't comment directly.  One downside to RS4s is that they can be hard to find, apparently Hankook doesn't do a very good job of keeping the supply pipeline filled.

 

I'm on my first set of RS4s as a dual purpose tire and I'm happy with them.  That said, for the OP I'm not sure I would recommend these, I think something like an Firehawk Indy 500 might be a better next step.

ea_sport
ea_sport Reader
2/10/21 8:11 p.m.
MrFancypants said:
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm strongly in the camp of not trying to share street and track duties on the same set of tires.  Street tires aren't designed for it and tend to fall apart like you saw.  A cheap set of wheels with some tires that are better-suited to track duty will save money in the long run and will also keep you from messing up the street wheels at the track.

I'd vote for NT01s or RA1s (the latter if standing water is a concern) on that second set of wheels.  They're forgiving, communicate well, don't age out easily, and tolerate track abuse.  Maybe RS4s instead -- I haven't used them so I can't comment directly.  One downside to RS4s is that they can be hard to find, apparently Hankook doesn't do a very good job of keeping the supply pipeline filled.

 

I'm on my first set of RS4s as a dual purpose tire and I'm happy with them.  That said, for the OP I'm not sure I would recommend these, I think something like an Firehawk Indy 500 might be a better next step.

I've heard a lot of recommendations on Firehawk Indy 500 but as someone else noted their price has been going up to the point that it's only $20off Falken 660. What does the hive think of the Falken 660?

glyn ellis
glyn ellis New Reader
2/11/21 3:57 p.m.
Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) said:

If you want a reasonably priced tire that handles abuse on the track and does a good job on the street in wet or dry situations, you might consider the Sumitomo HTR Z 5. I run the predecessor, HTR Z 3, on the P71. Even as heavy as it is, the tire can handle the abuse and has very good behavior at the limits. It's not the fasted tire by far but I like the way they handle. That is probably what will go on the G35 next time around. 

I have to respectfully disagree with you on the Sumitomos. I tried some HTR Z3s on my 997.2 (after a recommendation from Tire Rack as Michelines werent available) and found them inconsistent and skaty, despite playing with tire pressures. I also had some center tread chunking after one weekend. They are now confined to road use. They replaced a set of Michelin Pilot Supersports which were superb, consistent and wore well, with a fairly stock alignment. I got 19 days out of them. On the same car, I also had a set of COntinetal DWS all seasons that were decent on track in cooler, damp conditions - I used them a WGI one year as it started snowing in the morning......

Whilst a 200 TW, the Hankook RS4s wear like iron and they were inexpensive - I used these on my E46 330i track car, and got 18 days out of them. I did flip them on the wheels to even out wear. They were very consistent even with warm temps, and not too bad in the wet, except for the last weekend when the tread was barely visible. 

As always, your mileage may vary. My opinion is worth what you paid etc, etc

 

Error404
Error404 Reader
2/11/21 8:26 p.m.
iceracer said:

I ran two different cars on their stock tires at HPDEs at Lime Rock with no problems with the tires and I didn't baby them.

Maybe years of hard driving FWD cars helped .

One thing I have found that beginners use the brakes too much and they need to learn how to steer with the throttle.

One thing that, looking back, I realize about tracking GTI is that turn in was even more crucial than in my mustang. In the mustang I just scrub a little or trail brake a little longer but in the GTI I needed to keep up enough throttle to rotate, I often found myself wanting a better turn in. 

 

As for the Falken 660, I haven't run them but I have they're a faster tire. I believe that they are also directional

preach (fs)
preach (fs) GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
2/11/21 8:53 p.m.
Olemiss540 said:

Michelin Pilot Sports (are PS4s the latest?) are fantastic if budget isnt a concern. Absolutely great wear, rain handling, grip, noise, etc. 

 

This.

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