vazbmw
vazbmw New Reader
7/23/08 6:56 p.m.

Hi folks, I know I look like a newbie here but I am not. I lost all my stuff with the site switch over and resigned up with a new sign-in. I say that to gain some respect and keep the flames low. What I am looking for is advice on are v6’s. I know nothing about them. My experience is Toyota fours and BMW v8’s. Here is an outline of the project. I am in the very early stages of research: Car: BMW e34 Wagon that has a bad engine. Don’t have one that meets that description currently, but I sure I can pick one up for $2000k not running Target HP number: 450-400 @ 6000 rpms Torque figure: 450-550 lbs ft Engine options: Turbocharged v6 (downside: don’t know anything other than GNX, what other cheap v6 are there that are good to turbocharge?) Turbocharged v8 (downside: weight, size, expense, economy off boost) BMW straight 6 (downside: cost to turbocharge etc) Big 4 cylinder (downside: Don’t think I can get the power out in a reliable manner) Total budget: $6000 Any advice?

m4ff3w
m4ff3w Dork
7/23/08 7:01 p.m.

How about Ford Thunderbird Supercoupe engine?

Came supercharged, shouldn't be to difficult to make it turbo.

jamscal
jamscal HalfDork
7/23/08 7:06 p.m.

Nissan vg30. Made a million of them. Turbo versions from the factory (vg30et) Very strong bottom end.

Nashco
Nashco Dork
7/23/08 7:17 p.m.

Why a turbo V6? Running with m4ff3w's comment, if you went with a supercharged engine I would suggest GM's 3800 long before a Grand National or Ford Supercoupe engine...they're much more modern engines with plenty of tweaks that have been done to keep with the times. One caveat, they're heavy...all iron block and heads makes it very robust but also a good anchor.

What about an NA V8? The LSx can make 450/450 pretty easily, is very light, is becoming very available, and packages quite well. As a bonus there is a huge aftermarket for them, so if you ever get the itch for more power it's as easy as picking up a catalog.

With that kind of power, keep in mind the rest of the drivetrain when you're budgetting time/money/resources. The T56 mated to the LSx is a no brainer, but that still leaves the rear diff. Some high power bimmer guys have just been letting them grenade and having a spare stocker around, others have been swapping to better ($$$) ones.

If you're really hung up on the V6 turbo, another option to consider is GM's 4.3. It came from the factory with a turbo on the Syclone/Typhoon, but they weren't anywhere near 450 hp in stock trim. The beauty of the 4.3 is that it is just like a V6 version of the SBC, so all the proven stuff for a SBC carries over to the 4.3. Cam grinds, pistons, rods, stroke/bore ratios, etc. Problem with these is weight, again with the all iron engines. The LSx is actually lighter than the 4.3 IIRC.

Bryce

vazbmw
vazbmw New Reader
7/23/08 11:14 p.m.

Why v6: Lots of space left in the engine compartment for turbos. Cheap I want to have the power come on later in the rpm range to save the driveline. I don't want to have to spend big bucks on diffs, axles and driveshafts.

I have been considering the LSx conversions. i have done all the research on that. Seem very popular. I have not ruled it out. Just checking over avenues.

Lots of the gm v6 engines are laying around. But that maybe because they are not worth anything. I am trying to find out if that is true.

Nashco wrote: Why a turbo V6? Running with m4ff3w's comment, if you went with a supercharged engine I would suggest GM's 3800 long before a Grand National or Ford Supercoupe engine...they're much more modern engines with plenty of tweaks that have been done to keep with the times. One caveat, they're heavy...all iron block and heads makes it very robust but also a good anchor. What about an NA V8? The LSx can make 450/450 pretty easily, is very light, is becoming very available, and packages quite well. As a bonus there is a huge aftermarket for them, so if you ever get the itch for more power it's as easy as picking up a catalog. With that kind of power, keep in mind the rest of the drivetrain when you're budgetting time/money/resources. The T56 mated to the LSx is a no brainer, but that still leaves the rear diff. Some high power bimmer guys have just been letting them grenade and having a spare stocker around, others have been swapping to better ($$$) ones. If you're really hung up on the V6 turbo, another option to consider is GM's 4.3. It came from the factory with a turbo on the Syclone/Typhoon, but they weren't anywhere near 450 hp in stock trim. The beauty of the 4.3 is that it is just like a V6 version of the SBC, so all the proven stuff for a SBC carries over to the 4.3. Cam grinds, pistons, rods, stroke/bore ratios, etc. Problem with these is weight, again with the all iron engines. The LSx is actually lighter than the 4.3 IIRC. Bryce
John Brown
John Brown SuperDork
7/24/08 6:16 a.m.

I wouldn't say they are not worth anything, just not the first choices. Most production V6 engines are bred small. Most production V8 engines are bred large. What you are trying to do is pull a dogsled with chihuahuas.

The 3.8L/231 GM engine will have to work harder than the 4.3L will have to. It is the reason I like the 4.2L F150 block with SC heads, NA intake and twin turbos. Not the cheapest route but definately fun.

Xceler8x
Xceler8x Reader
7/24/08 7:27 a.m.

If you want later power then the LSx isn't the motor for you. Torque fight F'in now with that motor.

How about a turbo or supercharged 5.0 Ford? Cheap, plentiful, the upgrades are completely mapped out, relatively lightweight, and did I mention they're everywhere?

bluej
bluej Reader
7/24/08 7:28 a.m.

mitsu 6g72. take the block from a montero (3.5L vs. 3.0L) add the DOHC aluminum heads from a 3000gt or Stealth (can use the NA or Turbo heads) and the rest of the turbo manifolds and plumbing.

stock turbo (9b) with the 3.0, they could put out 350 at the wheels with boost control/tuning.

with a 3.5 block and 15g turbos, you're easily at your power goals.

more info: http://www.wrenchmonkey.com/Webpages/6G74swap.html

just another option.

z31maniac
z31maniac HalfDork
7/24/08 7:58 a.m.

Don't worry the diff/halfshafts in BMW's are solid.

The answer you are looking for is M30 + turbo. 3.5L straight 6, ridiculously overbuilt and love boost.................and lost of it.

For god's sake gon't put a GM motor in a BMW, it makes baby jesus cry.

minimac
minimac Dork
7/24/08 8:17 a.m.
z31maniac wrote: The answer you are looking for is M30 + turbo. 3.5L straight 6, ridiculously overbuilt and love boost.................and lots of it.

That was the formula for the E-23,745. A regular on the bimmerboard.com has a couple of complete "plug and play" setups for sale very reasonably. Add a late model 5 or 6 speed trans swap and light 'em up!

vazbmw
vazbmw New Reader
7/24/08 9:07 a.m.

So here is what I am favoring right now: 1. BMW I6 2. LSx 3. Ford 5.0

The v6 does not seem to be the best choice based on comments and research.

I can buy a BMW with an I6 and build for boost. Less headache. Not so cheap though.

dyintorace
dyintorace Reader
7/24/08 9:21 a.m.

This should inspire you. It belongs to a board regular in NW Florida. He has a lot of experience with both LSx swaps and turbo'ing that motor.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/reader-rides/231/

belteshazzar
belteshazzar Dork
7/24/08 10:42 a.m.
z31maniac wrote: Don't worry the diff/halfshafts in BMW's are solid. The answer you are looking for is M30 + turbo. 3.5L straight 6, ridiculously overbuilt and love boost.................and lost of it.

I agree with everything in this quote. This should be choice number one.

Choice number two would be a 5.3 GM truck motor. Cheap to get a complete drivetrain. Ought to be enough power. Upgrades are out there.

Raze
Raze New Reader
7/24/08 11:16 a.m.

If it 'has to be' a v6 I vote 3.8, cheap, plentiful, in lots of grandma and grandpa cars so you can get nice low mileage ones, get a supercharged one with forged internals and all you'll need to do is slap a couple headers and turbo/s on, and turn up the boost. Very few v6s out there came forced induction from the factory.

If it can be any other engine I'd go 5.0, cheap and plentiful are understatments, plus the T5 trans can be built as stout as your wallet.

stuart in mn
stuart in mn Dork
7/24/08 12:45 p.m.

A friend of mine has an e34 wagon. It started out as a 525i automatic with a dead engine and he swapped in a 3.5l straight six and manual transmission out of a 535i sedan. Along with an upgraded suspension, brakes and tires It ended up as a really nice car with a drivetrain combination that BMW never sold in the States.

If you want serious power, turbocharging the BMW six (whether you find a 525i or swap in a 535i engine) works really well. Todd at www.turbochargingdynamics.com sells turbo kits for the BMW M30 big six, M20 baby six as well as the later M50 and S50 six engines.

belteshazzar
belteshazzar Dork
7/24/08 1:25 p.m.

armin's car is so simple but so right.

vazbmw
vazbmw New Reader
7/25/08 5:26 p.m.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/reader-rides/231/ I have read his stuff He had a very interesting approach to getting the compression ratio right for boost His approach is very high on my list

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 New Reader
7/30/08 8:59 a.m.

Toyota VZ series engines.

look them up... stupidly overbuilt, extremely torquey, will spool ANYTHING, and are cheap.

vazbmw
vazbmw New Reader
7/30/08 11:52 p.m.

Ya I the vz Looked at them when I was building a old school Celica LC engineering wanted a ton for the 22r so I was like I can get the same power from a 3vz with no effort. Never did it though. I think it is too weak to pull the 4000lbs wagon though. I looking for 400hp or better.

I am definitely leaning toward the v8's at this point Been looking more at the L33's and the LSx's

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
7/31/08 5:25 a.m.

I like the lsx idea. With the torque that the engine has you probably could run a big overdrive and still get mid 20's mpg wise out of it.

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 New Reader
7/31/08 1:07 p.m.
vazbmw wrote: Ya I the vz Looked at them when I was building a old school Celica LC engineering wanted a ton for the 22r so I was like I can get the same power from a 3vz with no effort. Never did it though. I think it is too weak to pull the 4000lbs wagon though. I looking for 400hp or better. I am definitely leaning toward the v8's at this point Been looking more at the L33's and the LSx's

400whp cake on a 3vz/5vz.

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