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markwemple
markwemple SuperDork
8/21/16 2:35 p.m.

In reply to unevolved:

Don't think so. The b18 and b20 aren't that different. A b20 shouldn't be hard to find.

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/21/16 2:56 p.m.

Us I would drop the pan if you can do it with the motor on the car. At that point unless it is blown up. If it is not blown up a simple refresh may be all it needs. It may just be stuck due to sitting for so long.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/21/16 3:04 p.m.
outasite wrote:
unevolved wrote: Nope, not yet. May try some more PB Blaster, and some MMO. Anyone else have some suggestions?
Do you have any movement in either direction? Were the cylinders walls that clean when you removed the head? If so, you may have a major problem with crank/rod destruction. How difficult to drop the pan?

Correct, I didn't really clean them other than wiping down with paper towels to get all the oil and grease out of there.

dean1484 wrote: Us I would drop the pan if you can do it with the motor on the car. At that point unless it is blown up. If it is not blown up a simple refresh may be all it needs. It may just be stuck due to sitting for so long.

Right, I think that's the next step if it doesn't start moving again this week. I'll feed it some more MMO and hope for the best.

BrokenYugo
BrokenYugo UltimaDork
8/21/16 3:30 p.m.

You could try dropping a block of wood down the bore and hitting it with a hammer, hit all the pistons. But if it's stuck good enough an oil soak and rocking it back and forth with a breaker bar doesn't get it loose you might have a rough enough bore (if that's the issue) that a dingleberry hone isn't going to clean it up.

How hard is a swap to the later "redblock"? Probably easier to find a good runner.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/21/16 3:43 p.m.
BrokenYugo wrote: You could try dropping a block of wood down the bore and hitting it with a hammer, hit all the pistons. But if it's stuck good enough an oil soak and rocking it back and forth with a breaker bar doesn't get it loose you might have a rough enough bore (if that's the issue) that a dingleberry hone isn't going to clean it up. How hard is a swap to the later "redblock"? Probably easier to find a good runner.

I'm not sure. I've been whacking it with a hammer (and block of wood) pretty good, with no results. So it's becoming increasingly less likely the block is going to clean up with a hone.

Spent some time today vacuuming all the crap (literal) out of the interior.

Didn't have any major surprises, which is good. The trunk's in pretty bad shape, though. This is going to require some replacement sheet metal.

But hey, new-in-box fuel tank! That's one problem off the long list.

Cylinders are soaking in MMO for now. Hopefully that helps the rings let go, I'd love to get this thing moving again without pulling it out. I'll probably drop the pan and visually inspect everything before it comes apart, though.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/21/16 3:56 p.m.

Not sure if it would help, but do you have an air hammer? Maybe use that with the wood- just to get some vibration in the bore walls..

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/22/16 8:17 p.m.

Just tried again to knock it free. No luck. Soaked in MMO for about 24 hours and tried tapping pistons loose with wood/hammer. Refilled the cylinders with MMO to let them soak some more. I guess next time I can work on it, I'll drop the oil pan and see what's up.

79sa
79sa New Reader
8/22/16 9:34 p.m.

50/50 of ATF and acetone to try to free the pistons.

TED_fiestaHP
TED_fiestaHP New Reader
8/23/16 6:18 a.m.

Try Kroil great stuff for rusted bolts.

ATF is cheaper and easier to find, add 4 quarts and wait at least a week.

I have heard of breaking pistons to take a engine apart, but if your not in a hurry that might not be required.

Once running, if possible the rings might wear off the rust. If any pistons go down far enough to expose the bad area of the cylinder that would be a easy win, could clean off some of the rust with sand paper.

Now if you can get the pistons out, and can get a set of new rings fairly cheap, then clean the pistons and hone the cylinders and then it just might actually work OK.

TED_fiestaHP
TED_fiestaHP New Reader
8/23/16 6:30 a.m.

Another Idea, ATF and some pressure. Head bolts some angle steel with some holes and a 2 X 3 wood block. Pick a piston and set the wood block on the piston, steel over it with the holes lined up with 2 head bolts. Add some tension and wait a few days, use a torque wrench and later see if things move any with the same torque.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
8/23/16 7:42 a.m.

I say this in a serious way, fully intending that you have done it already.

Make sure the car is in neutral.

I speak from experience.

outasite
outasite Reader
8/23/16 12:19 p.m.

I purchased a MGB w/head off and thick rust on all of the cylinder walls. Filled cylinders w/kerosene, waited a couple of days, breaker bar on crank bolt, couple of hours of patient effort and turned freely, Wiped the cylinders clean, reassembled engine, started, idled until hot, changed oil, oil consumption was never a problem and I drove it hard.

I am thinking you need to drop the pan.

BrokenYugo
BrokenYugo UltimaDork
8/23/16 12:33 p.m.
tuna55 wrote: I say this in a serious way, fully intending that you have done it already. Make sure the car is in neutral. I speak from experience.

This reminds me. Remove the starter to ensure it hasn't failed in such a way that it locked the flywheel.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
8/23/16 12:34 p.m.

Use a torch to heat up the block?

Heat expansion generally does wonders to breaking rusts bond. (probably best not to have the cylinders filled with kerosene at that point )

MrChaos
MrChaos GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
8/23/16 12:43 p.m.
aircooled wrote: Use a torch to heat up the block? Heat expansion generally does wonders to breaking rusts bond. (probably best not to have the cylinders filled with kerosene at that point )

extra heat

outasite
outasite Reader
8/23/16 12:44 p.m.

Too late for this: Old timers would connect heater hoses from seized engine to good engine and allow coolant to circulate and heat block. Just enough expansion to assist in freeing stuck piston/s.

oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy UltraDork
8/23/16 12:56 p.m.
outasite wrote: I am thinking you need to drop the pan.

I'm thinking this.....

as to the head... those chambers look pretty interesting, I'd bet a bit of cleanup and a nice 3 angle will improve breathing some.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/23/16 10:27 p.m.

Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

I have verified it's in neutral (may or may not have tried some hammer blows with it in gear), but I haven't checked the starter. With the coolant jackets, I'm not optimistic I could get any meaningful thermal expansion out of the block without also heating up the pistons, which being aluminum, will heat up more for a given temperature rise. So far, the plan of "keep feeding it MMO" is still in play until I get a chance to drop the pan. Cyl. 3 & 4 are now draining 1/2" of MMO down into the crankcase over a 24 hour period, but 1 & 2 are holding solid. Not sure if that's related to how much each one is seized or not.

I'm still holding onto hope that the bores are okay, and all it needs are a new set of rings. I realize that's a pretty slim chance at this point, but I'm still going to hope.

outasite
outasite Reader
8/23/16 10:31 p.m.

What is life without challenges? Boring

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/24/16 8:44 p.m.

Did a little bit more work tonight. Punchline- still seized.

Decided to pull the starter off and see if that was holding anything up. It's quite a mess down there.

Got the starter out, it's covered in grime.

Man, what a mess. I think I'm going to have to pull the motor just to get everything clean.

Started the title application process, I'm going to have to get a bonded title. I'm a little worried, though, because the "VIN plate" is missing from over the master cylinder. I can get the VIN (chassis and type numbers) from a stamping by the battery box, just barely, but the VIN plate being gone worries me in case someone at the DMV gets jumpy.

It looks like it should be screwed to the horizontal sheet metal right above the master cylinder, and look like this:

That area on my car is blank, and doesn't look like it's ever HAD screws in there, so I'm a little confused. Anyone care to enlighten me?

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/26/16 8:13 a.m.

Just posting this here for record.

Intake Valve Stem Diameter- 0.3423"

Exhaust Valve Stem Diameter- 0.3407"

NOHOME
NOHOME PowerDork
8/26/16 9:32 a.m.

Chunk of dry ice on top of each cylinder? Get those suckers to shrivel up like a Canadian's balls with the first spring swim in the lake.

car39
car39 HalfDork
8/26/16 11:35 a.m.
unevolved wrote:
car39 wrote: Accessory shift knob!
Say what? Is it something special?
Streetwiseguy wrote: You will want to get to know these guys. I have used them a few times, always good parts, good service. http://www.vp-autoparts.com/main.aspx?guest=yes
I found those guys last week, that's part of the reason I bought this car. Gave me the confidence I wouldn't have to make everything from scratch to fix this.

OEM would have been black plastic with the shift pattern on it.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/26/16 12:49 p.m.
NOHOME wrote: Chunk of dry ice on top of each cylinder? Get those suckers to shrivel up like a Canadian's balls with the first spring swim in the lake.

Maybe? But if the rings are stuck to the walls, I think that would just pull the pistons off the rings, since the rings can move separately from the pistons.

car39 wrote: OEM would have been black plastic with the shift pattern on it.

Awesome! I'll make sure and take good care of it, then.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/28/16 9:44 a.m.

It's been over a week, and the engine is still seized. I'm starting to consider just going pants-on-head with this car and heading straight for the late model powertrain swap. I've been brainstorming a lot this morning, and I haven't quite arrived at a solution.

The goals are 200 whp, easy to work on, reliable, and preferably NA (for now). I'd like to get AC back in the car, and be able to take this thing on the occasional road trip.

The shape of the engine bay really rules out a V8 or V6 swap. The upper control arm points are inside the frame rails, and since widening the body is out of the question, the engineer in me refuses to shorten control arms. It's not really long enough to have an inline 6 and still be easy to work on, so that rules out most BMW engines. In a perfect world, I can arrive at a swap that doesn't require significant modification to the body of the car. I'm envisioning some welded/machined engine mounts that bolt to the factory crossmember, and a similar contraption for the trans in the rear.

My first thought is a Toyota 3SGE from an Altezza. Lightweight, RWD, and rather cheap for what you're getting. Only problem is, it's a front-sump engine that's not easy to convert to RWD.

Second, cheaper thought would be a Mazda BP. They're everywhere, easy to modify, and cheap. Not super light, which is kind of a priority for me.

Third thought would be a K24. I'd have to lean pretty heavily on the KMiata.com parts, which would be expensive but save me a ton of time. Big question would be the oil pan and how it would interact with the subframe.

The more I think about it, the more I really like the thought of a K24 powered Amazon. It's a lightweight, powerful, rev-happy engine with a HUGE aftermarket, and it's easy to work on. Costs for the swap would be up there, but I really want to do this car right, even if it takes a while.

I've already ruled out F20/22C and LNF/LDK engines due to cost. What else is out there? Anyone got a great oil pan solution for a K24?

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