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pres589
pres589 UberDork
8/28/16 10:02 a.m.

What about the Mazda/Ford MZR based engines out of a Ranger? I believe those are aluminum block & head setups which would save weight. Should be a lot of transmissions out there to use if you don't want the Ranger unit. Another idea would be a 1.8 BP with a supercharger as it would hit your power target and the parts aren't rare. I know this isn't an NA setup as you outlined but they sound awesome.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/28/16 10:20 a.m.
pres589 wrote: What about the Mazda/Ford MZR based engines out of a Ranger? I believe those are aluminum block & head setups which would save weight. Should be a lot of transmissions out there to use if you don't want the Ranger unit. Another idea would be a 1.8 BP with a supercharger as it would hit your power target and the parts aren't rare. I know this isn't an NA setup as you outlined but they sound awesome.

Problem with the MZR is it's front-sump as well. They're good engines, but if I'm dealing with a sump conversion/crossmember hack job, I'd rather do it for a K24 or 3SGE.

Ojala
Ojala HalfDork
8/28/16 10:21 a.m.

In reply to unevolved:

Do you have a hoist? Or a stout tree? I have to go in to work tonight for a couple hours, but just let me know when and we can pull the motor...

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/28/16 10:31 a.m.
Ojala wrote: In reply to unevolved: Do you have a hoist? Or a stout tree? I have to go in to work tonight for a couple hours, but just let me know when and we can pull the motor...

I'm picking up a free hoist from a friend in Houston in a couple weeks. Probably going to wait until then to pull it.

Ojala
Ojala HalfDork
8/28/16 11:04 a.m.

In reply to unevolved:

I'd bring mine, but it's old school and cemented into the ground

clutchsmoke
clutchsmoke SuperDork
8/28/16 12:18 p.m.

Ecotec swap?

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/28/16 12:46 p.m.
clutchsmoke wrote: Ecotec swap?

I think it would be too expensive to justify. Not as easy to find, either.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/28/16 12:59 p.m.

Question- do you need 200whp now or the potential of doing that in the future?

Question 2- do you have a picture of the cross member relative to the engine? Sounds like an Alfa motor swap would be out due to the front sump issue, too. Which I think is backward from the Miata (but I've not really paid attention to).

Anyway- it seems like the BP motor would fit most of the bills. BTW, if there's any interest in the modern Duratec/MZR- remember that engine is what is in NC's. So if the sump is ok on it, then you can source that motor. Or at least parts for a Ranger.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/28/16 1:30 p.m.

I may just need the potential for 200whp in the future. I'd be okay with Miata-levels of power now, but the K24 really appeals.

If I could get my hands on a welder for the house, I could swap in a Miata engine and probably still stay under the Challenge budget. There's always that.

FooBag
FooBag GRM+ Memberand New Reader
8/28/16 4:53 p.m.

A NA 2.4 Ecotec is definitely worth considering, since it can hit your power goals. There were literally hundreds of thousands of these engines produced. There should be a factory rear sump oil pan that was used on the Pontiac Solstice & Saturn Sky. You can take a look at the Ecotec Miata page for some inspiration. Link

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/28/16 4:54 p.m.

Found this wonderful list of dimensions. Looks like a BEAMS will fit neatly between the front steering link and the firewall pretty easily. That'd require a custom subframe, but I think that's going to be required for pretty much anything but the Miata engine.

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=140011

NOHOME
NOHOME PowerDork
8/28/16 4:57 p.m.

I know it is in a P1800, but not far from the same engine compartment. I know there is a build thread somewhere.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/28/16 6:35 p.m.

http://www.mk3supra.org/topic/738-1966-volvo-amazon-engine-transplant/?page=4

This thread isn't encouraging. I don't want to cut up the interior yet.

Major interior surgery to fit a Miata trans, according to this.

chaparral
chaparral Dork
8/28/16 10:00 p.m.

General Motors Atlas 2800/2900. Looks to be rear-sump from what I can see, available at U-Pull yards cheaply, and 200 WHP would be a different airbox and silencer away.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/29/16 6:45 a.m.
chaparral wrote: General Motors Atlas 2800/2900. Looks to be rear-sump from what I can see, available at U-Pull yards cheaply, and 200 WHP would be a different airbox and silencer away.

Interesting idea. Aside from being cheap, I'm not sure what advantages it would have over a Miata engine for this chassis, though. I can't image at 2.9L it's very small.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 PowerDork
8/29/16 6:52 a.m.

What about a gm 60 degree v6? Incredibly compact for what it is.

Ojala
Ojala HalfDork
8/29/16 7:23 a.m.

Rotaries, 4 cylinders, and even a few v6 engines will fit. But that trans tunnel is so small I think the transmission should be the deciding factor.

If it was my decision that is.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/29/16 8:01 a.m.
Dusterbd13 wrote: What about a gm 60 degree v6? Incredibly compact for what it is.

Still think it'd be too wide. If it fits, it would barely fit, and that sort of goes against the "easily maintainable" thing.

Ojala wrote: Rotaries, 4 cylinders, and even a few v6 engines will fit. But that trans tunnel is so small I think the transmission should be the deciding factor. If it was my decision that is.

Yeah, I think the trans tunnel is going to be hard. It's just so damn short, with the shifter in a weird position (relative to a modern trans). Not that many people have transmission dimensions laying around. On paper, I think I want to go with a 3SGE. But it's going to take a little butchering of the trans tunnel. The only swap I've found that people do without tunnel work is a 90's Volvo engine (B21/23/230). It more or less bolts up, and I suppose I could get excited about a B230T, but they don't seem to be super easy to find.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse SuperDork
8/29/16 8:50 a.m.

In reply to tester:

Here I am, just saw this.

I have about a dozen of these cars sitting around- many of them are parts cars, and many of those are 4 doors, like yours, picked up for beer money. Any parts you may need that you can't easily find new, PM me. I do this as a hobby, so I can't promise quick parts, but if you need something stupid like a weird trim piece or a seatbelt or what have you, chances are I've got it. I recently cut out a section of a floorpan around the shifter for a guy to weld into his car.

Looks like you've got a nice starting point. These cars are very straightforward to work on, and just as importantly, great fun to drive.

If you need any spare B18 parts, whether its a valve or whatever, let me know.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/29/16 9:01 a.m.
volvoclearinghouse wrote: In reply to tester: Here I am, just saw this. I have about a dozen of these cars sitting around- many of them are parts cars, and many of those are 4 doors, like yours, picked up for beer money. Any parts you may need that you can't easily find new, PM me. I do this as a hobby, so I can't promise quick parts, but if you need something stupid like a weird trim piece or a seatbelt or what have you, chances are I've got it. I recently cut out a section of a floorpan around the shifter for a guy to weld into his car. Looks like you've got a nice starting point. These cars are very straightforward to work on, and just as importantly, great fun to drive. If you need any spare B18 parts, whether its a valve or whatever, let me know.

That would be awesome. If I'm having to do transmission tunnel surgery, parts from a donor car would be very welcome. It looks like I'm going to have to make some room for a modern trans, eventually.

Any input on keeping and rebuilding the B18 vs. swapping in a modern 4?

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse SuperDork
8/29/16 9:01 a.m.

The Stock M40 transmission is TINY- literally, it's cast iron but still only weighs like 50 pounds. Tuna55 should know, he's changed one at a LeMons race.

The Engine bay is cramped in weird ways, as you've found by the suspension. I have seen SBF's fit, with some modifications.

The trans tunnel from an automatic car is a bit wider, and gives room for more options.

A friend of mine really wants to swap a GA16DE from a B13 Sentra into one. Or the KA24.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse SuperDork
8/29/16 9:10 a.m.
unevolved wrote:
volvoclearinghouse wrote: In reply to tester: If you need any spare B18 parts, whether its a valve or whatever, let me know.
That would be awesome. If I'm having to do transmission tunnel surgery, parts from a donor car would be very welcome. It looks like I'm going to have to make some room for a modern trans, eventually. Any input on keeping and rebuilding the B18 vs. swapping in a modern 4?

It all depends on what you're going for. I'm not one of these guys who has a hard-on for originality, but the stuff Volvo put in there was very good. I have daily driven cars with low-compression B18s and 85 horsepower still gets up and works with modern traffic. The torque is just there at all RPMs, which makes them easy to live with and fun. Yet the engines will still scream to 6500 RPM and stay there all day long.

A B20 can be made to make around 150-170 HP, that's about the limit for naturally aspirated, street driveable stuff, but then they do lose some of that low-RPM goodness. You'll also drop about 5 grand into such an engine. At that point, a low-mile pullout from something more modern starts to make sense.

Its too bad you're far (I'm in Maryland), I have some B18s that rotate freely and would be better starting points for a mild rebuilding that I'd sell very reasonably.

A B20 and a B18 cost about the same to rebuild. If you can, scour CL for a B20. I daily drove a car with a B20E (from an injected 1800) with twin carbs and a 4.3 rear end for awhile. I raced and beat a friend's V6 mustang with it. That engine ended up in a LeMons Amazon, where it was very fun on the track, till we wrecked the car. It's now sitting in my garage, awaiting another ride to power...

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse SuperDork
8/29/16 9:13 a.m.

Also, the M40 trans is darn near indestructible. We ran the one in our LeMons car a whole weekend-long race once, not realizing it was entirely full of water. After the race, the 3rd gear synchro was making a bit of noise, so we pulled the drain plug- Niagara Falls. Not even a hint of oil. No idea how that happened, but it sold me on the durability of these boxes.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse SuperDork
8/29/16 9:16 a.m.

Oh, one other thing- notice I said "naturally aspirated". These engines take boost VERY well. Would you rather have some Japanese motor in your Swede, or a Snail under the hood?

V-Performance did a supercharger on one too, that made about 200 HP.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
8/29/16 9:53 a.m.

Hmmmm. That's very good to know.

I'll have to look into turbo setups, I'd love to do a simple home-brew somehow. Seems like packaging would be rough since it's not a cross-flow head, but not impossible.

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