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BrokenYugo
BrokenYugo UltimaDork
9/2/16 1:08 p.m.

I'd keep the slant, from the engine's viewpoint tilting it 20 degrees from stock is like it's in a turn of something like .3G all the time.

EvanR
EvanR SuperDork
9/2/16 2:15 p.m.

Folks have set the "Slant 4" B21/23/230 engines upright in to Amazons. Someone out there makes a bellhousing for that purpose, but I can't remember who. I do remember it's not cheap.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
9/2/16 2:18 p.m.
BrokenYugo wrote: I'd keep the slant, from the engine's viewpoint tilting it 20 degrees from stock is like it's in a turn of something like .3G all the time.

Well, except the oil pickup, pan, and pump will be changed. That's usually the part of the oiling system that's affected most by lateral cornering forces, and that won't be a problem.

Only thing I can think of would be drain-back. But how could it be worse with a vertical engine?

BrokenYugo
BrokenYugo UltimaDork
9/2/16 2:33 p.m.

In reply to unevolved:

In that case carry on. Looking at pics of the head I don't think drain back would be a problem.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
9/10/16 11:31 p.m.

Today was nice and productive. Mrs. Unevolved was out of town, so I spent all day outside working on the Volvo. A few friends stopped by and helped out, which is always nice.

First thing we did was pull the transmission off the B230F.

Despite our best efforts to clean it up, the transmission still leaked everywhere. I hate automatics.

Then it was time to prep the Amazon to pull the B18. I love how the front of the car just detaches so the motor can slide out the front.

Out it comes!

Getting the transmission off took like 2 minutes. I love it.

Rear main is... nasty.

Had to stop and take a look at all the beautiful chaos we'd created.

Turned the motor over to get the oil pan off. A lovely mess of water and oil and grease (what?) fell out and went everywhere.

So, the guy that owned the car before me heard that pumping grease into a seized engine can help free it up. Not totally off base, when it's pushed into the combustion chamber in a pressurized fashion. I found out today that he had pumped what had to be a full tube of grease into the crankcase through the fuel pump's opening in the block. Prior to taking this picture, I removed a softball sized "ball" of grease that was just sitting there under cylinder 1.

But, good news, there didn't appear to be anything wrong with the internals, aside from being stuck.

Cleaned it up a little more, and went into the garage since we were losing light. Decided it was time to figure out exactly what was keeping this engine locked up.

Flipped it over, and upon the recommendation of some members here, started loosening main bearing caps and rod caps in a somewhat systematic fashion, but none of the bearings were causing the lockup.

Then decided to pull off the cam gear.

It took a lot of heat and hammering, but it finally came off.

So, uh, didn't see this coming. Heated it up with the MAPP torch, and it looked a little weird. Once it was off, and "cooled off", I picked it up. Plastic! Did not see that one coming. Guess I learned it's a thermoset...

So, back to the pistons. Slowly started removing rod caps and pushing out pistons, and found our culprit. Piston 2 is STUCK.

Finally figured out a way to get enough force on it. Never done this before, but it actually worked pretty well.

OMG, grease everywhere.

All of the bearings actually look pretty good. None of the them spun, and there was some very minor spalling. This one showed the most wear.

Here's the second chaotic shot, showing the engine scattered over my workbench.

I'm actually kind of surprised how good of condition the engine's in, all things considered. It ran for maybe 20 years or so, then sat untouched for 30. The bores don't have any significant damage. I would be surprised if it took more than 0.010" over to get it freshened up enough.

This kind of has me thinking it'd be fun to get this engine running again. Just put the B230F turbo stuff on pause for a little bit, freshen up the B18 and get it running again. I've never owned a carb'd car, and I kind of want to check that box. Wouldn't be easy, but it'd be less work than getting the B230F running in the car.

I just want to drive the damn thing, and it seems like a B18 is the easiest route to that goal. I just wasn't planning on the motor being a decent rebuild candidate.

jfryjfry
jfryjfry Reader
9/11/16 12:41 a.m.

Agreed - easy button would be to rebuild the stocker. Doesn't look too bad!

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy PowerDork
9/11/16 8:58 a.m.

When you get the new timing gear, don't hammer it on, and DO NOT USE AN IMPACT WRENCH ON THE NUT. Really. Not even to run the nut down. You will, absolutely, break the threaded nose of the cam off.

And, now that its too late, you should have used a 3 slot steering wheel puller and three bolts bent into an L shape and inserted into the holes to pull the gear.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse SuperDork
9/11/16 9:43 a.m.

Nice! Looks like a rebuild on that will be a snap piece of cake! And you can sell the B230 to finance the overhaul of the B18.

If you follow the build specs for the B18D engine (what was in the 123GT), you can get up around 10:1 compression. With the right cam, this is good for about 115HP, which will really make that setup fun. The heads have what I swear are machined combustion chambers with great quench- they'll take all kinds of timing with 93 octane and rev to 6500 all day long.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
9/11/16 11:26 a.m.

Well, I guess now it's time to really figure out the next steps. I've got a running (or at least, runnable) B230F, and a B18 that's a solid rebuild candidate.

Pros of B230 turbo build

-More power

-More reliable

-More fun

Cons of B230 turbo build:

-More fabrication work (tunnel, driveshaft, etc.)

-Will require upgraded transmission

-New fuel system

-Higher tooling costs (don't have welder at the house, or any metalworking tools to speak of)

-More expensive parts

Pros of B18 build:

-Less parts to buy (everything bolts up, with exception of worn out parts)

-Simple

-Haven't built a carb'd motor before, and I kind of want to do it at least once.

-Parts are relatively cheap

Cons of B18 build:

-Slow (Sure, it's fast for it's age, but it would likely lose in a drag race to a stock Miata.)

-Less reliable (carb'd motors are more cranky and maintenance intensive.)

From a financial standpoint, the B18 rebuild is the clear winner. But the B230 would be SO much more fun, but cost much more. Not only for the engine, but the inevitable upgrades that will be required to the drivetrain, rear end, brakes, etc. that 300hp will bring about. If I build the B18, I can start driving the car and getting all the other bugs sorted out. Once it's a solid chassis again, then I can start putting together a turbo build and really have some fun with it. That seems like the most "responsible" course of action, but if I'm going turbo FI motor EVENTUALLY, one could make a case for not wasting time with the B18.

XLR99
XLR99 Dork
9/11/16 11:46 a.m.

I vote for the B18 rebuild as step one. Then you can take your time getting the B230 cleaned up, painted, maintenance stuff done, plan out and collect the rest of the driveline parts while driving the car.

BrokenYugo
BrokenYugo UltimaDork
9/11/16 12:45 p.m.

Carbs aren't really all that maintenance intensive, once it's dialed in, unless you do something stupid like leave it full of stale gas they'll go years, sometimes decades, without being touched. Not really cranky either (especially in classic car weather) once you understand how the choke functions and address any vapor lock issues caused my modern fuel (not really an ethanol thing, just increased volatility). Points ignition was the maintenance intensive part.

jfryjfry
jfryjfry Reader
9/11/16 1:55 p.m.

In reply to XLR99: +1

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
9/11/16 5:42 p.m.

I guess I need to figure out what parts I could throw into a B18 build to make it a little more lively than stock. IPD makes some cams I've read good things about, and the stock "C" cam is supposed to be pretty good. I don't want to spend a whole lot of money on it, though, since the whole point is to be cheaper than installing the B230F.

NOHOME
NOHOME PowerDork
9/11/16 6:12 p.m.

Engine swap please. Cause GRM, and stock is boring(er).

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
9/12/16 7:01 a.m.

I can speak from absolute direct experience here. A slightly happy B18 will pull dead even with a spec Miata (it was a cheating Lemons car).

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
9/12/16 7:42 a.m.
tuna55 wrote: I can speak from absolute direct experience here. A slightly happy B18 will pull dead even with a spec Miata (it was a cheating Lemons car).

I'm not sure if that's supposed to be for or against the B18...

Still on the fence, to be honest. Through a weird twist of fate, yesterday I came into possession of quite a few fabrication tools I'll need if I'm reworking the transmission tunnel. All I need now is a welder, and I'd have everything to do the turbo redblock.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 PowerDork
9/12/16 7:44 a.m.

I've done quite a lot of floor pan work with my $89 harbor freight Flux core.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
9/12/16 7:52 a.m.
unevolved wrote:
tuna55 wrote: I can speak from absolute direct experience here. A slightly happy B18 will pull dead even with a spec Miata (it was a cheating Lemons car).
I'm not sure if that's supposed to be for or against the B18... Still on the fence, to be honest. Through a weird twist of fate, yesterday I came into possession of quite a few fabrication tools I'll need if I'm reworking the transmission tunnel. All I need now is a welder, and I'd have everything to do the turbo redblock.

No votes! You mentioned a comparison against an NA Miata, so I figured I'd give you some experience. The dude was over ten seconds a lap faster than us. Once when we were both in traffic, we both exited the corner and nailed the throttle at the same time. We drag raced down the long straight and I let off to let him have the corner because I knew getting in his way was useless. It was dead even when I did so.

Thinkkker
Thinkkker UltraDork
9/12/16 8:13 a.m.

Hmmmmm, Carbs on the B230?

Rebuild is easiest, and just get it together and go. Then again, where is the fun in that......just look at my build at the moment....

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
9/12/16 10:07 a.m.
tuna55 wrote: No votes! You mentioned a comparison against an NA Miata, so I figured I'd give you some experience. The dude was over ten seconds a lap faster than us. Once when we were both in traffic, we both exited the corner and nailed the throttle at the same time. We drag raced down the long straight and I let off to let him have the corner because I knew getting in his way was useless. It was dead even when I did so.

I gotcha, I gotcha. Thanks for the comparison.

Thinkkker wrote: Hmmmmm, Carbs on the B230? Rebuild is easiest, and just get it together and go. Then again, where is the fun in that......just look at my build at the moment....

I'm not sure carbs would really solve any of my problems. The biggest problem is going to be the tunnel modifications.

Here's a picture of the surgery required to fit a T5 (which isn't that big of a transmission).

Stolen from this thread on TurboBricks.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse SuperDork
9/12/16 10:40 a.m.

If I were going to be doing that amount of fab, I'd move the drivetrain back and eliminate the need for a two-piece driveshaft.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
9/12/16 12:12 p.m.
volvoclearinghouse wrote: If I were going to be doing that amount of fab, I'd move the drivetrain back and eliminate the need for a two-piece driveshaft.

I think it'd be limited by the heater box, which I don't want to get rid of. I would rather just make a bigger trans tunnel that could accommodate a larger diameter 1 piece driveshaft.

Thinkkker
Thinkkker UltraDork
9/12/16 2:17 p.m.

I just meant to allow for you to play with carbs while still having a one time build.

Yes, the surgery can be a pain when you get into it.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
9/12/16 7:55 p.m.

Hypothetically speaking... What's this B18 worth? I'd like to think someone would pay a few hundred bucks for a complete, rebuildable B18D...

NOHOME
NOHOME PowerDork
9/12/16 8:52 p.m.
unevolved wrote: Hypothetically speaking... What's this B18 worth? I'd like to think someone would pay a few hundred bucks for a complete, rebuildable B18D...

I dont know what they are worth, but it took me two years to find a buyer for a B20 with an OD manual box bolted to the back. Was asking $500 for both.

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