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alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
10/16/19 2:27 p.m.

So something to think about when you consider the number of chargers required...  

@120kW (which isn't that much) you still need 20 min to charge a car.  And we don't even need to add the transaction time- just 20 min.  20 cars = 400 min.  

Pumps fill at 10gal/min- so lets call the average fill up 15 gal, and add one min for the transaction fee- that's 2.5min.  20 cars = 45 min.  

Most gas stations have something like 6-10 pumps.  Which means 6-10 at the same time- so 20 cars can be less than 10 min up to around 20.

To match the slow gas stations at 20 min to satisfy 20 customers of EVs, you need 20 120kW chargers.   

To think that waiting will never be an issue of waiting is, well...  you can come up with that.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
10/16/19 2:30 p.m.
infinitenexus said:

I wonder if Tesla took their Model 3 and backed down the power to something around 200hp, how it would affect the range?  I wonder how that even works with EVs?

That just will keep the top speed and acceleration down- the car will still need the same amount of energy to move you from A to B if driven the same way.  What it will do is lower expectations of EV drivers so that they *might* drive more conservatively, and that would net you more distance.  

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/16/19 2:31 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
z31maniac said:

Yeah, the issue is in super populated areas where the cars are popular. 

I saw multiple photos out of LA/SD/SF this weekend of LINES of Tesla's waiting to get to the charger. 5 minutes for gas or 2 hours just to wait to charge. Can you imagine how infruriating that would be? To be stuck at a charger waiting while you're on a road trip or something?

That was probably because of the rolling blackouts in that area last weekend. Basically, the equivalent of the gas shortages in the 70s. 

I know exactly what it’s like to have to wait :) The infrastructure is going to have to keep up with the growth of the number of cars. It will occasionally struggle. Heavily populated areas have more chargers, so it balances out. 

I thought that was only in the northern part of the state? Not Los Angeles or San Diego?

Either way, for me, it wouldn't really be an issue for me on how I drive (not counting a road trip obviously). Depending on weekend usage, I could go roughly 2 months between charges with normal usage. 

FuzzWuzzy
FuzzWuzzy Reader
10/16/19 2:33 p.m.

The main difference between gas stations and charging stations is that I could charge my EV at my house overnight, negating that long wait at a charging station. I can't do the same for my gas car.

This assumes I have a house that can charge said EV.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
10/16/19 2:47 p.m.

I'm pretty ready for it. I have issues about the mining and recycling of batteries from an environmental standpoint, but I am ready. I loved the first generation Leaf, and I know that was the long long ago, in the before time. I can't wait for the $20K bare bones wagon that has a moderate acceleration and 250 miles of range, but the prices are near parity adjusted per driven mile. Even a more depreciated, efficient hatch can't beat a used Bolt or Leaf or I3. It's great.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/16/19 2:50 p.m.
infinitenexus said:

I wonder if Tesla took their Model 3 and backed down the power to something around 200hp, how it would affect the range?  I wonder how that even works with EVs?

Kinda like a gas motor, if you're not using all the power you're not using as much energy. A 400 hp car being driven down the highway is only using 30-ish hp, so it's only consuming 30-odd hp worth of energy. Drive slow, drive smooth, drive slippery and your range goes up regardless of where that energy comes from.

The longest range Tesla is the (mostly unadvertised and just discontinuted) Long Range RWD model. It's the same battery pack as the much more common Long Range Dual Motor, but only one motor so it's about 250 lbs lighter. It's rated at 283 hp instead of 412 hp for the dual motor. The range difference is fairly minor, though - 325 miles instead of 310.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
10/16/19 2:51 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

The reason I mentioned Superchargers is because they are dramatically faster than most other options. If you’re on the road, you want to charge at 120 kW, not the common 6.6 kW Level 2. You can charge a Tesla at any charging station, but unless you’re stopped overnight it’s not all that viable. Electrify America is working on a rival network of fast chargers. It’s like the old railway lines being built out. 

 

These are all 50kw+ chargers.  IMO at that level its not a big deal.  What will the difference in wait times be, 20 mins, once a year?  I can only recall one trip in the past several years I have taken that would require any charging at all on something with >200 miles of range, and even then it wouldn't require a full charge.

 

JesseWolfe
JesseWolfe New Reader
10/16/19 2:53 p.m.

I'm a big fan of VW TDi cars ( have 2 ), for fuel economy and range.  As it's not likely I'll ever be able to buy another one due to no more US production of them, I know my next car will be an EV.  I drive 130 miles a day for work, and some days need to turn around and do it all over again just a few hours after getting home.  I need range and quick charging, I hope the technology is there in 6-7 years with a cost under $20k for a family car.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/16/19 2:57 p.m.
alfadriver said:

So something to think about when you consider the number of chargers required...  

@120kW (which isn't that much) you still need 20 min to charge a car.  And we don't even need to add the transaction time- just 20 min.  20 cars = 400 min.  

Pumps fill at 10gal/min- so lets call the average fill up 15 gal, and add one min for the transaction fee- that's 2.5min.  20 cars = 45 min.  

Most gas stations have something like 6-10 pumps.  Which means 6-10 at the same time- so 20 cars can be less than 10 min up to around 20.

To match the slow gas stations at 20 min to satisfy 20 customers of EVs, you need 20 120kW chargers.   

To think that waiting will never be an issue of waiting is, well...  you can come up with that.

What you're missing is multi tasking. You can do something else while the EV is charging, like pee or grab a snack or sit down for a meal. You don't really have that option with the ICE unless you manage to leave the car at the pump and get back before it's done filling. In reality, what you do is either abandon the car at the pump for an extended period which takes the pump out of commission for anyone else, or you pull into the parking lot of the gas station and go inside so your total stop is not much different. The percentage of abandoned cars at the pump varies by region, it's very common in California for some reason.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/16/19 3:08 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
Keith Tanner said:

The reason I mentioned Superchargers is because they are dramatically faster than most other options. If you’re on the road, you want to charge at 120 kW, not the common 6.6 kW Level 2. You can charge a Tesla at any charging station, but unless you’re stopped overnight it’s not all that viable. Electrify America is working on a rival network of fast chargers. It’s like the old railway lines being built out. 

 

These are all 50kw+ chargers.  IMO at that level its not a big deal.  What will the difference in wait times be, 20 mins, once a year?  I can only recall one trip in the past several years I have taken that would require any charging at all on something with >200 miles of range, and even then it wouldn't require a full charge.

 

Good to know. I took a look at our area with that same threshold and we've got more than I expected although not that number. A lot of them appear to be at WalMart or Sams Club locations. Looks like they're part of the Electrify America network.

And here's where it starts getting uglier, of course. There are two different plugs/standards used at those stations. I can't use any of them with my car. I can get an adapter for one (CHAdeMO) but not the other (CCS). It sure would be nice if all EVs could use all the charging stations.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
10/16/19 3:39 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

VHS Vs Betamax all over again!

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
10/16/19 3:41 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

VHS Vs Betamax all over again!

Which charging standard will porn adopt?

MrFancypants
MrFancypants New Reader
10/16/19 5:22 p.m.
triumph7 said:

I have a hard time understanding the range anxiety though, most people on their daily commute drive less than 50 miles/day and could plug in when they park overnight.  Most new EVs have more than enough range for the daily commute and a few errands.  For longer trips either rent a car or have a second vehicle.

If I have to rent or buy a second vehicle to get to where I need to go doesn't that nullify any benefits an EV might offer? In my case, the reality is that there are no EV charging stations within the entire county of a location I visit once or twice a year. Sure, if I never travel far from home this isn't a problem, but I'm multiple stops away from both my family and my in-laws. In the current state of things an EV just doesn't make sense for me.

At the rate in which infrastructure is going up and new EV cars are being released I'm guessing that'll change by the time our current family truckster is ready to be replaced, but right now it's more trouble than it's worth.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
10/16/19 5:29 p.m.

I'd call it the medieval era. We will look back on this time in 25 years and ask ourselves, "My god, is that the best we could do?" 

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
10/16/19 11:23 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
alfadriver said:

So something to think about when you consider the number of chargers required...  

@120kW (which isn't that much) you still need 20 min to charge a car.  And we don't even need to add the transaction time- just 20 min.  20 cars = 400 min.  

Pumps fill at 10gal/min- so lets call the average fill up 15 gal, and add one min for the transaction fee- that's 2.5min.  20 cars = 45 min.  

Most gas stations have something like 6-10 pumps.  Which means 6-10 at the same time- so 20 cars can be less than 10 min up to around 20.

To match the slow gas stations at 20 min to satisfy 20 customers of EVs, you need 20 120kW chargers.   

To think that waiting will never be an issue of waiting is, well...  you can come up with that.

What you're missing is multi tasking. You can do something else while the EV is charging, like pee or grab a snack or sit down for a meal. You don't really have that option with the ICE unless you manage to leave the car at the pump and get back before it's done filling. In reality, what you do is either abandon the car at the pump for an extended period which takes the pump out of commission for anyone else, or you pull into the parking lot of the gas station and go inside so your total stop is not much different. The percentage of abandoned cars at the pump varies by region, it's very common in California for some reason.

There's unlimited flexibility to recharge a car, not just at home (as someone mentioned above), but at work, while shopping, and maybe eventually through electrified roads (some trucks are testing this in Europe), etc.  Trying to frame charging as an issue in the context of gas stations is like saying electricity will never be adopted by consumers due to its ability to kill.  Yes, it might be an issue, but then we put our thinking hats on and figure out a solution.  Then there will be issues with whatever solutions we come up with, and then we solve those.  The world isn't static, thankfully!

nimblemotorsports
nimblemotorsports Reader
10/16/19 11:53 p.m.

In my view, there are going to be big improvements in the future for EVs. 

The fact a car with a huge battery pack can create huge power is more an accident or side-effect that Tesla has exploited. 

 I have always said that the smaller, cheaper, lighter battery packs that can recharge very quickly are going be the future.   

When the battery tech and recharge tech catch-up for this approach, EVs will be cheap and recharge as fast or more than gas cars, maybe while waiting at stoplights and driving through recharge roads, making 'refueling stations' a thing of the past. 

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
10/17/19 5:51 a.m.

After a few weeks of driving my Volt, I had to stop and put gas in the van. It suddenly felt absolutely archaic to stop at a dedicated refueling location and have to put a stinky flammable liquid in my car for it to run. Just for a moment, mind you, then the feeling passed. But it's amazing how quickly the new becomes the normal and I think gas stations have become so ingrained into our culture that people can't see past them. Remember there was a time very very recently that there were zero gas stations in the world and people were having these same conversations about gas powered cars.

i can plug my volt in at work and at home (120v at work, level 2 at home) and so run on gas basically never in a typical day. And this is a 40 mile range PHEV so any full EV beats the pants off it for range. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/17/19 6:05 a.m.
nimblemotorsports said:

 I have always said that the smaller, cheaper, lighter battery packs that can recharge very quickly are the holy grail.   

Fixed that for you :)

infinitenexus
infinitenexus Reader
10/17/19 7:34 a.m.

My wife has a 2013 plug in prius and I believe the electric motor has 62 horsepower.  In EV mode it has plenty of power to accelerate along with traffic and it'll go 62-65mph no problem before the ICE turns on.  Build something  the size/weight of a 1997 civic hatch with a 75hp electric motor and stuff a good battery in it and I imagine you could have an excellent commuter with a long range for cheap.  Don't get me wrong, I literally dream of owning a Tesla, but something like what I mentioned I think would be more realistic for a lot of people.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/17/19 7:47 a.m.

The manufacturers tried the weird, slow variants already. It wasn’t until cars that happened to be real cars with electric motors came along that the market responded with any enthusiasm. 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
10/17/19 8:09 a.m.
infinitenexus said:

My wife has a 2013 plug in prius and I believe the electric motor has 62 horsepower.  In EV mode it has plenty of power to accelerate along with traffic and it'll go 62-65mph no problem before the ICE turns on.  Build something  the size/weight of a 1997 civic hatch with a 75hp electric motor and stuff a good battery in it and I imagine you could have an excellent commuter with a long range for cheap.  Don't get me wrong, I literally dream of owning a Tesla, but something like what I mentioned I think would be more realistic for a lot of people.

What is realistic and practical is very different from what people will actually buy.

Dave M
Dave M Reader
10/17/19 8:15 a.m.
ProDarwin said:
Keith Tanner said:

Other networks will build out 

I think most others are pretty charging company agnostic and they outnumber supercharging stations by a crazy amount.  An example from mid NC...

 

Tesla:  (Only 3 are listed as 'superchargers')

 

All chargers (limited to 250 results so not all are shown):

 

Ok, but how do you know if those non-tesla chargers are available? Or DC fast? Or not chained up randomly? I own an i3 and I've stopped relying on commercial chargers because they're so unpredictable and located in useless locations. Only Tesla gets it: the charger makes the ICE car replacement possible.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
10/17/19 9:22 a.m.
Dave M said:

Ok, but how do you know if those non-tesla chargers are available? Or DC fast? Or not chained up randomly? I own an i3 and I've stopped relying on commercial chargers because they're so unpredictable and located in useless locations. Only Tesla gets it: the charger makes the ICE car replacement possible.

Plugshare will let you filter by whatever requirements you want.  You can scroll up this page and see a shot with all DC fast (50KW+) chargers.

There are a lot of different use cases.  Different people will view different locations as useless.  I don't have an EV, but to me, charging along the interstate would useless.  I'd rather have charging @ my destination.  The Supercharger network seems to pretty much cover only the long-distance interstate travel use case.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/17/19 10:18 a.m.

Those are the other Tesla chargers you see on the map - "destination chargers". They're mostly at hotels, intended for overnight charging when you're at your destination. Really they're basically Level 2 chargers but with stronger branding and no compatibility with other vehicles. Also, Teslas know where they are but at the moment they are unaware of off-brand chargers.

Charging at your destination is good if your destination is within your range. It can also be awkward if your company requires you to stay at one hotel chain but that hotel chain doesn't offer charging (yet). I think on-premise charging will become like free wifi for hotels in the future - an expected benefit, although you may have to be part of their rewards program to get it.

You do have to watch out about the chargers listed on sites/apps like Plugshare. For example, there was one across the street from my hotel in Denver last time I visited. But it turns out it's only for city employees and you need a keycard to get into the garage. The next closest is for residents of an apartment building or their guests. So it can be a little erratic, which is the nature of crowd-sourced info like that. Looking at the Plugshare map for Denver, it looks like most of the chargers are in parking garages where you get a free charge with your parking - but they're mostly Level 2, which means you'd have to park for a significant time to get significant range. Again with the multi-tasking - you would park and go about your business while your car sips at the juice bar. They're not well suited to stopping by for a fill-up. 

Dave M
Dave M Reader
10/17/19 10:32 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

"Erratic" just about sums it up. Imagine looking around for a gas station, only to find all the pumps closed or the pumps with only truck diesel nozzles? And they're only located in random CVS parking lots or out back behind the county assessor's office? What a mess. Since we use our EV around town, we just charge at home.
 

I'm not sure what the incumbent automakers are doing. I think they've basically just focused on China and Europe and half-assing it in the US. Electrify America is a great example. In DC they are putting in, like, 4 chargers, and two of them are in a Walmart parking lot in a not great neighborhood. Have fun Porsche owners!

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