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JimMurphy
JimMurphy New Reader
12/13/19 4:47 p.m.

In reply to Flynlow :

See our post above and rent a F600 experiencing the F1 scream on a race track . . . . . heaven.

JimMurphy
JimMurphy New Reader
12/13/19 4:50 p.m.

In reply to therieldeal :

In our F600 race cars, the shifting (paddles vs. bump stick) method is a personal choice - whichever that you are most comfortable with.  See our post above for more.  HTH.

JimMurphy
JimMurphy New Reader
12/13/19 5:14 p.m.

In reply to triumph7 :

Thank you for showing the F500(F600) race at the VIR Runoffs.  The black car (Clint McMahan) won, running away, and the white car (Calvin Stewart) was finally caught by the orange car (Eric McRee) near the end so Calvin took 2nd and Eric took 3rd.  Plenty more in the links in my post above.  Enjoy on a BIG screen

gumby
gumby GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
12/13/19 8:05 p.m.

I am struggling mentally with project overload, and the one closest to the chopping block is an old F440 chassis with a 600cc bike motor sitting next to it. This thread isn't helping me move on.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
12/14/19 5:50 a.m.
gumby said:

I am struggling mentally with project overload, and the one closest to the chopping block is an old F440 chassis with a 600cc bike motor sitting next to it. This thread isn't helping me move on.

GRM Forums:  We're enablers even when we're not even trying.

stroker
stroker UltraDork
12/14/19 6:42 a.m.

I'm kinda surprised that F1000 doesn't get more attention from the GRM members...

LanEvo
LanEvo Dork
12/14/19 9:02 a.m.

Always wondered how the transmission would work on a bike-engined car. How do you implement a reverse gear?

Robbie
Robbie GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/14/19 9:21 a.m.
gumby said:

I am struggling mentally with project overload, and the one closest to the chopping block is an old F440 chassis with a 600cc bike motor sitting next to it. This thread isn't helping me move on.

How much do you want for it?

NormPeterson
NormPeterson New Reader
12/14/19 9:52 a.m.
z31maniac said:
penultimeta said:

I love that spit. However, when I saw them testing it on dirt, it just kinda reiterated for me how impractical BEC are for the street. No reverse gear, hard sequential shifts, and oiling issues. Again, I don't think this makes them less awesome. Just perhaps less practical for someone looking at small, lightweight engines to retrofit into and LBC or the like. 

What are the oiling issues? 

Oil drainback to the sump comes to mind.  When a bike leans in a corner, the resultant acceleration coming from lateral g's plus gravity points more or less "down" toward the sump, aiding drainback.  On a car that doesn't roll nearly as much, at best you're not getting that kind of help and would actually have lateral g's times the sine of your roll angle working against gravity even in an inline engine.

There's something fascinating about a smallbore high-revving engine in a light, nimble car.

 

Norm

Curtis
Curtis GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
12/14/19 11:38 a.m.

I think it's partly dreaming and partly miseducation... but I want one too.

People see 180 hp from a tiny, light powerplant, they love how they sound, and bingo.  They forget how much of a mismatch things can be with a high-strung engine and a heavier car.  That isn't to say there aren't great matches.  Plenty of lightweight cars out there, but it's hard to go from a 400-lb bike to even a lightweight 1800-lb car and have a 13,000 rpm 1-liter engine be a good match.

kevlarcorolla
kevlarcorolla Dork
12/15/19 10:54 a.m.

https://youtu.be/_AbPkpyLRW8

 Carefull selection of engine and most importantly gearing go a long way to a successfull bike powered car.

 

 My mid engined,awd chain drive geo metro ice racer worked like magic for its intended purpose.

kevlarcorolla
kevlarcorolla Dork
12/15/19 10:58 a.m.

https://youtu.be/J80e5yxLDBg

 

 My scratch built autox toy,shaft drive to a 4.3 miata diff also worked well.

 

 

Nugi
Nugi Reader
12/15/19 11:07 a.m.

So, totally hypothetically, if a guy had a lot of spare time, a few sportbike engines, and a deathwish, what is the 'easy' button on a bike powered 4-wheel... thing? Is there one?

Are any car donors easyish to make sub 1000lbs? I know my crx is in the 1700s on a good day, with some major stuff 'missing', and few cars sold were smaller. 

Is diy tube frame the way? Miata skateboard? I kinda want 'car size', even if its tiny, or I might as well just buy a RZR and lower it. 

This 800cc v4 Gear-driven-cam honda engine needs a home badly. I miss its sweet song. 

kevlarcorolla
kevlarcorolla Dork
12/15/19 11:08 a.m.

Oh yeah,current project is a 2 door awd subaru justy with a honda VTR1000 V-twin stuffed under the hood.

 Required location due to rule changes caused by the Monster Geo as it was known.

 Chain driven jackshaft used to chain drive a big ass sprocket in place of the oem flywheel.

 Bike provides the power,clutch and gears while the justy trans is used in 2nd or 3rd gear while mobile and will provide reverse as well.

 

 Lost interest in ice racing lately after 2 + decades but will finish the justy and do some testing then just sell it.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
12/15/19 11:42 a.m.

In reply to Nugi :

It won't be easy.  If trying to build a car down to that weight, you really have to start looking at making every single component as light as possible, and in many ways, it'll be a cost-be-damned project if you want it to be streetable as well.  Start by looking at current SCCA DSR cars as those are basically at that weight. 

Some 60's Lotus racers were close and many of them used a few Spitfire parts - mostly the front suspension and steering. 

Light, Strong, Cheap - Pick two.

Tom1200
Tom1200 Dork
12/15/19 4:40 p.m.

Why so much love for bike engined cars? Because motorcycle engines and transmissions are so much better than automobile based ones!!! (Says the ex bike racer and current F500 owner)

Our Yamaha 1000cc powered D-Sports Racer was 1016lbs with me in it and it belted out 175hp. At a track day I remember accelerating  past a Dodge Viper down one of the straights and the owner was gobsmacked that a chain drive 4 cyl car would out accelerate his car.

The sequential box is the other big plus as well as fairly close ratios stock.

A hayabusa engine/tranny is right on 230lbs so it's going to be 200lbs lighter than most modern automotive 4 cyl twin cam  engine/trans combo.

As for reverse you can by a reverser box, I think they are $1500 though.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
12/15/19 4:47 p.m.

I've linked this before somewhere along the way.

 

 

It is not strictly a "Hayabusa engine".  It is a Hayabusa head, mounted to a VW engine block that has been destroked to 1170cc, so that the turbocharged engine would be under two liters adjusted.

 

From what I remember when they were talking about it on clubgti, his racing rules require a stock engine block for the model car.  I would think that this also gives the advantage of having an oiling system already engineered for lateral forces, and a much easier time mating to a transmission.  The Suzuki head already has valvetrain engineered for high RPM, which is the hard and expensive part when you want to bend the tach needle against its stop.

fasted58
fasted58 MegaDork
12/15/19 5:00 p.m.
LanEvo said:

Always wondered how the transmission would work on a bike-engined car. How do you implement a reverse gear?

https://www.quaife.co.uk/quaife-products/motorcycle-engined-vehicle/

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
12/15/19 5:39 p.m.

Another differential option: http://jeffcoperformance.com/differential/  Like the Quaife, also not cheap but at least located in SoCal rather than the UK.  There was a cheaper option from a company called TransWorks, but apparently they were not the most reliable things out there and it seems the company is out of business. This is a well traveled path in the dune buggy world and we went through many of these topics extensively in the Abarth 1000 SP thread about 5 years ago. 

spitfirebill
spitfirebill MegaDork
12/15/19 6:24 p.m.

Because 10,000+ Rpm out of the box. 

Personally ‘m not a huge fan of them.  They need moah torque and reverse gear.  

kevlarcorolla
kevlarcorolla Dork
12/15/19 6:35 p.m.

In reply to spitfirebill :

You mean less weight and more gear :)

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory PowerDork
12/15/19 9:15 p.m.
triumph7
triumph7 Reader
12/16/19 7:42 a.m.

In reply to JimMurphy :

Yeah, it was a great race for 2nd and 3rd no doubt.  Who was it that passed Eric for a few corners midway though the race?  Seemed like Eric eased off for a couple laps as at the same time Calvin pulled away.

On a side note, the Zink and the R6 aren't getting any closer together but I did work out a novel shifter/clutch arrangement for it.

Tom1200
Tom1200 Dork
12/16/19 11:38 a.m.

@triumph7,  I can only speak for myself but on bike engined cars I go up and down through the box without the clutch...........same as one does in a shifter kart. This makes it possible to left brake which I find to be faster. I never had a gearbox issue but I road raced motorcycles first so matching the rpm is second nature for me.

Even two up a Hayabusa is still only going to be 850-950lbs so yeah a 1400lb car is a lot more.

We've discussed the bike motor thing in my 1600lb Datsun; The little Datsun motor and gearbox are a few pounds lighter than a Hayabusa set up so there's no weight savings. The standard motor can be bored and stroked to get an additional 550cc and realistically about 135 to 140hp in streetable trim. A standard Hayabusa is about 160 at the wheels, I'd expect the automotive driveline to suck another 5-10hp minimum. So at the end of the day the bike engine was not a huge advantage given the amount of fab work.

Now in something like an original Fiat 500 or a Sprite I imagine it would be awesome.

For single seat racing cars, bike motors are the best thing ever. The big thing I miss about the DSR are those lightening shifts and the motor zinging to 12,000 RPM.

 

 

triumph7
triumph7 Reader
12/16/19 12:38 p.m.

In reply to Tom1200 :

That clutch really makes starting and stopping easier!

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