Vintage or Champ car?

I've got a team in place - sorta. Enough to do Vintage but Vintage has its own set of rules. 
  Chief among them is the requirement to use 15 inch wheels no wider than 9&1/2 inches wide 60 series. 
    If I choose to wait for more team members and go Champ Car the wheel and tire size are open. Probably 18x 10 

so the big question is how much will old fashioned tires cost me on the same race track?  

ChampCar provides much more track time for the money.

Instead of a few practices and a qualifying session before the main race, you get 12+ hours on track to enjoy.

Personally, I'd run it in Vintage racing mode at both events and if you decide to be more competitive, then swap wheels for the ChampCar events.

Also look at LeMons, LuckyDog, AER, etc for similar style endurance events.

I can't remember what car you're running but my thought is it won't more more than a couple of seconds if that.

Well it's more than that.  Vintage requires carbs. And won't allow aftermarket Turbo's 

    Plus the tracks I like to race at are up to 4 miles long and have looooonnnggg straights. 
      Its's a Jaguar XJS V12.  Around 400 hp on carbs. 1/2 again that much on turbo's 

  Vintage races are basically all out sprints.  While champ car is run at about 80% or less. 
     
  My Concern is if I choose to run a Champ Car event how much will I loose with old fashioned wheels and tires? 

As far as the tires go for that set up I don't think it will be much at all. The smaller tires will be easier to overheat but vintage races are only 12 laps long.

The Champ Car set up will have 200 more horsepower and on long tracks that's going to matter way more than the 18" tires. 

Wild guess on my part is the tires will be 1-2 seconds per lap at most

I think the motor will be 6 seconds a lap (I'm using my spreadsheet for my Datsun based on a 50% increase in power).

Running in D class in Champcar atleast what I have seen has very few opponents and from what I understand is more about circulating and not having to pit more then 4 times in a 8 hour race and keeping the tires underneath you. I would imagine that Jag would not be a top contender for the all out win, assuming you are within the rules and not a EC car.

frenchyd said:

 While champ car is run at about 80% or less. 

Not at the pointy end.  

In reply to trigun7469 :

It's got a 24 gallon tank  with a red line of 6500 rpm ( safe up to 8300 rpm )   Since it starts at 125 points. There is a lot of room  to the 500 limit for go faster stuff.
     I'm not thrilled with endurance, to my way of thinking it's about defensive driving at somewhere around 80%. 
 To improve fuel mileage you coast into turns rather than brake hard at the last moment.  Instead of running it to redline you shift at 5500 instead of 6500. 
   With a top speed of 150 and 500+ hp  turning good lap times shouldn't be a problem.  
  The last Jag I built raced for 3 decades without a single failure  in fact the original engine-transmission   is still  in it in the museum 

Champcar is basically a 7 hour or 8 hour flat out sprint at the pointy end.

It is not 80%....   

Maybe 4 or 5 years ago.

Also, if you have 24 gallon of fuel, you can only probably make about 250 hp in order to make it 2 hours (fairly important to be competetive).  

If you can get the weight down to around 2500 #, you get away with a 245 40 15.  There are a few decent (race winning) tires in that size.

In reply to frenchyd :

Maybe Class C Lemons is less than a 15 hour sprint but Class B and all of A is go all out if you want to win.  Unless you are darn sure you are way faster and several laps ahead there is no reason to leave anything on the table. 

In reply to frenchyd :

I have raced in Class A,B, and C. How fast you go is dependent on the competition, track, and length of race. I raced at Michigan Speedway and it was a 12 hour race but the competition was so close, between 4 teams we were battling not only for the class but the overall. The laptimes we were running at full tilt. Unfortunately, we had a failure with 2-3 hours left, wheel bearing failure. At Watkins Glen the track was so crowded that essentially you were passing or someone was passing you a entire lap. PittRace I am able to find a lot of open track and make a lot of passes. One year champcar tried a sprint schedule it was divided into 4 race sessions, it didn't work well. Another quirk to Champcar is there is no qualifying so you could start the day dead last and must weave your way through traffic. Throughout a stint you can be 50%, 80%, 100%, the strategy and all the cars are what makes it interesting to me. I like Champcar WRL, Lemons, and AER. Again, my only sprint experience is karting so I only know vintage from what I read and spectate. If you come to Pittrace and need a driver I would be interested.

You've solved one of your problems, with that engine and power level you'll be making 2-3x more fuel stops than anyone else which will ensure you'll have to run flat out to have any chance at being competitive.

Frenchy - I think you should put whatever wheels and tires on it that get you on track the quickest.  If that's the Vintage legal setup then that's what you should run.  Keep your eyes open for a great deal on the alternate wheels while you're racing.  Tires are a consumable so you'll be buying them again anyway.

To answer your lap time question; it's going to depend a lot on the track and the car.  How much of the track will allow you to use the extra grip?  Will the wider package weigh more and if so how much will that effect the braking and drive off?  I would guess that they'll cost anywhere from nothing to three seconds a lap.

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

I thought somebody said the cars at the pointy end made like 230 hp?  If that's the case. Then at 2700 pounds ( Hess & Enwright convertible might be lighter)  Would it be competitive with its 262 hp Stone stock?    

In reply to APEowner :

It won't make any difference in the prep time. It's just however long it will take to get the required number of drivers to make the time commitment to do the work. 2 plus myself should make fast enough work for vintage ( and that what I have the commitment from right now ). 
I'd think 4 plus myself for Champ Car ( I'm not excited about an enduro, I doubt I'll do much driving) 

akylekoz said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Maybe Class C Lemons is less than a 15 hour sprint but Class B and all of A is go all out if you want to win.  Unless you are darn sure you are way faster and several laps ahead there is no reason to leave anything on the table. 

Champ car has 7-8 hour races  at Elkhart Lake  

I think LeMons is 8 hour at Brainerd 

APEowner said:

Frenchy - I think you should put whatever wheels and tires on it that get you on track the quickest.  If that's the Vintage legal setup then that's what you should run.  Keep your eyes open for a great deal on the alternate wheels while you're racing.  Tires are a consumable so you'll be buying them again anyway.

To answer your lap time question; it's going to depend a lot on the track and the car.  How much of the track will allow you to use the extra grip?  Will the wider package weigh more and if so how much will that effect the braking and drive off?  I would guess that they'll cost anywhere from nothing to three seconds a lap.

My last Jaguar had 5.3 inches of Dunlop vintage race tires that was on 300 hp/ 2000 pounds 

frenchyd said:

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

I thought somebody said the cars at the pointy end made like 230 hp?  If that's the case. Then at 2700 pounds ( Hess & Enwright convertible might be lighter)  Would it be competitive with its 262 hp Stone stock?    

Yup.  My car is about 2400# and has 180 whp.  We set laptimes amongst the top 5 or 10 teams.

Our race winning and pointy end Civic, now retired, was 205whp and 2250lb wet no driver.  Top 1-5 lap times, plus 3+ hours on fuel with a cell.  Making buku power is not the way to win endurance racing. 
 

Both days of Lemons count together for usually 14.5 hours total, it isn't two separate days like Champ usually does. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to trigun7469 :

It's got a 24 gallon tank  with a red line of 6500 rpm ( safe up to 8300 rpm )   Since it starts at 125 points. There is a lot of room  to the 500 limit for go faster stuff.
     I'm not thrilled with endurance, to my way of thinking it's about defensive driving at somewhere around 80%. 
 To improve fuel mileage you coast into turns rather than brake hard at the last moment.  Instead of running it to redline you shift at 5500 instead of 6500. 
   With a top speed of 150 and 500+ hp  turning good lap times shouldn't be a problem.  
  The last Jag I built raced for 3 decades without a single failure  in fact the original engine-transmission   is still  in it in the museum 

I read this and just laugh.

In reply to BigIron :

At 72. I know I can't maintain a race pace for 2 hours.  I'm pushing myself to go for 1/2 hour. About the length of a Vintage session. 
     One other person is also near my age and he agrees that endurance racing really holds no attraction.  So we'd need at least two more young drivers and  accept the extra time for a driver swap. 

Sonic said:

Our race winning and pointy end Civic, now retired, was 205whp and 2250lb wet no driver.  Top 1-5 lap times, plus 3+ hours on fuel with a cell.  Making buku power is not the way to win endurance racing. 
 

Both days of Lemons count together for usually 14.5 hours total, it isn't two separate days like Champ usually does. 

When TWR was racing the factory BMW's ( 633cs  if my memory is right).  Jaguar had to stop 3 times to BMW's 2 stops for fuel.  Still beat the BMW's. 

The answer is simple way to much cheating in Champcar.. Afriend and his buddies were running a 924S, needed to replace the shocks, so they bought a brand new set of Konis and painted them a flat v=black and called them the original shocks.  Another group ran a BMW, fee to the team was over 5k per driver (four drivers typical) and everything o the car was rebuilt after every race.

There is some rules bending in vintage / historic but nt like chump car.  Also, appears to be a lot of red mist poor prep in champ car.

I would rather run a series where I run a safe car, and not illegal.

As for tires, you are just beginning, so wait to the end of season and buy the end of season tires for 50 cents on the dollar.

I didn't see where you are from, but go to a large vintage event near you and talk to people running a car like you are going to run and see what they say.

If you are in the ice belt and looking for inexspensive racing, try ice racing.

In reply to Mel9146 :

I've been vintage racing since 1975 although I did take 20 years off to build my house. 
      Apparently since the JaguarXJS V12 is eligible for Group 6 racing ( as long as I use vintage treaded tires, Goodyear G7 Blue Streaks, Dunlop M series, or Hoosier TD's ) That's what I'll do. 
it will be fun racing Camaro's, Mustangs, Cobra's and Corvettes.
 Besides the cost of endurance racing  to properly prepare a car and other cost would be a massive drag. Plus at my age  racing two hours at a time is a real challenge. I'm far better suited for the 30 minutes sprints. Of Vintage racing. 

Worst take ever on Champcar.  

Neither one of your friends teams won a race, or finished top of their class, did they?  Otherwise, they’d be sitting in impound after the race was over, with other teams pouring over their cars, looking for cheaty bits.   Having driven for several different teams that have spent time in impound, I can tell you the cars that are winning get looked over pretty good.

The only BMW team I know of that charges anywhere near that amount is TLM.  They have a FULL arrive and drive program for some exclusive clientele that want that experience.  Those cars also run in EC class, where they are not eligible for the overall win