Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/6/20 12:01 p.m.

Actually the question goes deeper than that. I'm at a bit of a crossroad with my F-Dat challenge build. And I don't have 100% of the info I need to make this decision yet but I'm getting close. 

Issue: current motor going very near max budget and may have issues

  1. Current motor from 01 GSXR1000, because challenge budget the ancillaries and ECU are from 03 GSXR1000
  2. This engine was sold to me with a known 2nd gear issue, but a good set of gearshafts, just not installed
  3. Working to get this engine running I realized the 01 crank trigger is very different from the 03 crank trigger, this may require separating the head to swap (but I do have the correct 03 crank trigger needed). There may be other differences similar to this that I am as yet unaware of. 
  4. Unless I get 'creative', I'm not sure I'd even have budget left for a new head gasket, much less all the correct side case gaskets to build this motor back up correctly. Leaving me with a leaky mess at best, and at worst something that doesn't run well because of HG sealing issues. 
  5. Budget expense is $485 for this motor, and $300 for the parts motor and electronics and ecu and ancillaries, and $175 for a trick oil pan (which, I may be able to get away with not using) = $960 total
  6. I do have a cheaper 01 motor ($145), and I need to repeat to confirm, but I compression tested it with not inspiring results. I guess it might be possible to tear this one open and find the issue and fix even with good new gaskets cheaper than $485 total. Or it may not. Would also need to crank trigger swap this one. 

Another option is to use the CBR600 motor that I got with the chassis, since I haven't sold it yet. I have basically the whole bike as a matching set, so parts swapping should be less of an issue. I don't 100% know if it runs yet, but I'm going to spend a couple hours to plug it all in and connect up a battery and give it a shot. It's currently mounted in the bike frame so that should be possible to try. I only have $250 of recoup left, and I should have plenty of cbr parts to sell to get there whether I use the engine or not. So essentially the CBR motor is budget free. Issues with the CBR motor:

  1. It makes about 100 hp to the wheel vs the GSXR1000's 140 whp (ouch). Engines both weigh essentially the same 130 lbs or so. 
  2. I don't have a trick oil pan for it. Might have to try and figure out an accusump and hope for the best.
  3. I'm not sure it runs yet. If it doesn't run or has issues then this whole thing is probably moot. 
  4. I'd have a lot of rework ahead in terms of engine mounts and ancillaries and stuff. 

So, 40% more horsepower, or $1000 more budget? Keep in mind I've got about 15 weeks to go before the challenge and realistically 150-200 hours of my time left to dedicate before the deadline. Yikes.

tomtomgt356 (FS)
tomtomgt356 (FS) GRM+ Memberand Reader
7/6/20 12:08 p.m.

*Disclimer: I know knothing about bike engines or turbocharging an engine*

$1,000 in budget sounds like enough for an ebay/junkyard turbo kit for the CBR600.

Dusterbd13-michael (Forum Supporter)
Dusterbd13-michael (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/6/20 12:09 p.m.

What do you want at the end?

Also, wait to make the decision until the "free" one runs and goes through the gears on a milk crate. Honestly,  at this point,  it seems like youre incredibly married to the engine family you made the mounts for. Youve already done lots of the work to make it fit and function properly. May be cheapest and easiest to buy a running/title lost/wrecked/possibly stolen bike and stuff that drivetrain in your already made stuff. Gotta be one for way under a grand out there.

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/6/20 12:37 p.m.
tomtomgt356 (FS) said:

*Disclimer: I know knothing about bike engines or turbocharging an engine*

$1,000 in budget sounds like enough for an ebay/junkyard turbo kit for the CBR600.

This is likely true. Not happening in 150-200 hours, but for the future it's possible. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ PowerDork
7/6/20 12:40 p.m.

$1000 more in budget is $1000 more to get the car running when you realize it needs a buunch of little stuff.  40% more power is worthless if the car doesn't run.

Stampie (FS)
Stampie (FS) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
7/6/20 12:40 p.m.

What's the target weight again?  40hp can make a big difference in a 1000 lb car.  Turbo sounds good but will it help in low end and how hard to tune the FI for it?  Don't things fall off the back of the truck in Chicago like they do in NY?

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/6/20 12:54 p.m.
Dusterbd13-michael (Forum Supporter) said:

What do you want at the end?

Also, wait to make the decision until the "free" one runs and goes through the gears on a milk crate. Honestly,  at this point,  it seems like youre incredibly married to the engine family you made the mounts for. Youve already done lots of the work to make it fit and function properly. May be cheapest and easiest to buy a running/title lost/wrecked/possibly stolen bike and stuff that drivetrain in your already made stuff. Gotta be one for way under a grand out there.

Good question, and YES, and YES. I won't make final decisions till I know the CBR runs. and I have already sunk a lot into the GSXR. But I sunk that into the GSXR platform when I thought I'd still have $350 in budget, and a spare engine, etc, etc. 

My problem with looking for another donor is very limited by time now. I've been watching for good GSXR deals for years so if I need something in a couple weeks I'm likely to pay a premium. Know of any good deals (lol)? The subaru wagon guys got a wrecked busa for like $700 which is such a nuts deal. I thought I had some good deals in my pocket but sometimes luck doesn't swing your way. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ PowerDork
7/6/20 12:56 p.m.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

You could always do the annoyingly cheaty but somehow legal itemized receipt move and buy a $2k "engineless" GSXR with a $300 engine.

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/6/20 12:58 p.m.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

$1000 more in budget is $1000 more to get the car running when you realize it needs a buunch of little stuff.  40% more power is worthless if the car doesn't run.

Yeah, the current engine leaves me quite nervous budget-wise. I mean, I have a lot of 'value' in the CBR stuff in budget already that could be 'self-traded' for GSXR or anything else stuff. But that still feels shady. 

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/6/20 12:59 p.m.
Stampie (FS) said:

What's the target weight again?  40hp can make a big difference in a 1000 lb car.  Turbo sounds good but will it help in low end and how hard to tune the FI for it?  Don't things fall off the back of the truck in Chicago like they do in NY?

40 hp will always make a big difference when it's 40% 

BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter)
BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/6/20 2:10 p.m.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the 1000cc engine is likely to have a lot more torque compared to the 600cc one. 600cc bike engines are notorious for being pretty peaky unless you do trick things with the exhaust.

If I were in your shoes, I'd focus my efforts on making a headgasket work in the budget somehow, rebuild the better GSXR engine, cut out my own paper gaskets for the rest of the case, and save all the hassles associated with the CBR. I think about the times I see someone selling a lot of service parts for a bike they no longer have and wonder how you could find such a thing. Usually they are selling oil filters, brake pads, and sprockets, but sometimes I also see gaskets and seals in such sale ads. Maybe put out a call on Suzuki message boards, groups, FB, etc and see if someone with a parts hoard wants to help the project by selling a gasket cheap?

RXBeetle
RXBeetle Reader
7/6/20 3:09 p.m.

The HG should be an MLS and is OK to reuse, better with a coat of copper spray-a-gasket. 
I'd ultra black rtv the side covers after  good cleaning and degreasing and skip the gasket $$.

Also, from FSAE experience you are going to want a baffle plate sandwiched between the pan and the block.  I'm not sure how well that works on a GSXR but on the CBR600 engines it was better than a accusump. There is a lot of space in the side covers to slosh oil to and pull all the oil from a large wet sump.  An aluminum sheet with a big drain-back hole around the pickup tube worked pretty good.

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/6/20 3:50 p.m.

I would go the route of upgrading the GSXR1000 engine to '03 spec, since you have all the parts to do it if I read correctly ('03 electronics, gearset, etc). Reuse the gaskets, hack-a-pan mod, as described above. Sounds like this route it well-documented, you're just afraid to tear into the motor. I believe you can do it, and will enjoy it too. I hate the sunk-cost fallacy, but you're already set up for the GSXR motor with your awesome aluminum sheet mounts. So if this works out, it only costs about $500, not $1000. That's a lot of nitrous.

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/6/20 4:07 p.m.

In reply to maschinenbau (I live here) :

yeah, I'm a bit afraid to tear into the motor. But not because I don't feel capable, more because I'm already feeling time crunch pressure. And I do think a factory-assembled motor has a greater chance of surviving than one I take apart and look at and go "well, if it weren't the challenge I'd fix that but it's probably good enough for now" haha.

Patrick (Forum Supporter)
Patrick (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/6/20 5:21 p.m.

See if 600 runs, tiny turbo it

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/7/20 8:32 a.m.
RXBeetle said:

The HG should be an MLS and is OK to reuse, better with a coat of copper spray-a-gasket. 
I'd ultra black rtv the side covers after  good cleaning and degreasing and skip the gasket $$.

Also, from FSAE experience you are going to want a baffle plate sandwiched between the pan and the block.  I'm not sure how well that works on a GSXR but on the CBR600 engines it was better than a accusump. There is a lot of space in the side covers to slosh oil to and pull all the oil from a large wet sump.  An aluminum sheet with a big drain-back hole around the pickup tube worked pretty good.

Thank you for this response - very helpful! especially the part about cbr oil control... I'm not sure how I feel about re-using headgaskets of any kind but maybe Im about to find out!

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/8/20 9:29 a.m.

Well, I've spent about 3 hours over the past couple days re-asdembling this bike just enough to start it up. Already, it's going way better than the gsxr...

First I reassembled and plugged the harness together. I don't have a manual at the moment so I had to just use my own deductive reasoning to plug everything in correctly. The Honda connectors are straightforward and the layout was easy to reverse engineer. Plugged in a battery, and had lights on the dash and had starter action.

Clicked the shifter a few times until the neutral light came on. Added oil and ran the starter a few seconds and the oil pressure light went off. 

Rigged up my fuel tank and put in some old gas I had in a can (dubious quality but it's what I had). Fuel pump is running straight from jumper wires to the battery. Hit the starter, had some burbling and pops and a backfire. Hmmm.

So I rechecked the one vacuum hose I didn't know where to go with. Internet tells me it's a map sensor (duh) and the nipple is not only hidden it's incredibly hard to get to. Fixed that. Still popping. Finally I checked the coil wires. The harness is laid out such that each plug only reaches one coil - or so I thought. It turns out it is possible to swap coils 1&2. Even though Honda labeled coil wire number 1, apparently I ignored that.

Hit the start and it immediately leveled into a nice clean idle. FI light is still on, and I don't have a throttle cable hooked up, but it sounds really nice.

gumby (Forum Supporter)
gumby (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
7/8/20 10:01 a.m.

This post makes me smile, and a twinge of jelly!

I should have done that before I abandoned the project.....but if I had, it might have never been for sale.

If you go with the 600, I will send you the CBR shop manual I bought. (And the baby turbo if it works in the budget/timeline devil )

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/8/20 10:26 a.m.

In reply to gumby (Forum Supporter) :

I'll BUY that manual from you. You keep that baby turbo away from me for now though. 

What's absolutely crazy to me is the difference in 'security' between honda cars and bikes. I've never done a honda engine swap, but I read about immobilizer issues like crazy. for the bike however, I unbolted the two screws that hold the ignition switch to the frame, loosened the 3 screws on the back, and pulled the key cylinder off the switch. Now the switch works with a screwdriver. and the bike seems to run. the switch also tests with a multimeter exactly like a regular switch (open or closed), no special resistance or zener diode or anything, so it SEEMS like if the steering head wasn't locked you could drive the bike with a paperclip. 

gumby (Forum Supporter)
gumby (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
7/8/20 10:41 a.m.

Baby Turbo Baby Turbo Baby Turbo

Dusterbd13-michael (Forum Supporter)
Dusterbd13-michael (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/8/20 10:51 a.m.

Baby turbo do doo doo dooo do.....

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/8/20 10:58 a.m.

I am not licensed by the state as a turbo orphanage. You cannot leave your baby turbos on the doorstep here. 

gumby (Forum Supporter)
gumby (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
7/8/20 11:32 a.m.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Personally, I would never abandon a baby turbo on anyone's doorstep. I cannot say the same for your UPS driver though...

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