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SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/23/17 10:19 a.m.

In reply to GTXVette :

You're getting hung up on "Full sized". I call the Chevelle a full sized, as opposed to an Outback or a Corolla wagon. 

But, you are also forgetting this one:

The '59 and '60 El Camino is built on the Impala pan, not the Chevelle. 

All El Caminos (both Impala and Chevelle based) still have the rear seat footwell in place under the bed. 

itsarebuild
itsarebuild GRM+ Memberand Dork
10/23/17 10:24 a.m.

I'm gonna say cars made from at least 3 other cars. Just because I don't want to be the only idiot doing this.

BlueInGreen44
BlueInGreen44 SuperDork
10/23/17 10:27 a.m.

I've never been to the challenge but it's my favorite thing to read about in the magazine and I love watching the challenge builds that are documented on the forum.  I've been immensely entertained by the sub classes that have surfaced in the last few years.

 

So from the perspective of my own entertainment:  Of the ideas presented thus far in this thread I think a mid engined class would be fun to watch and would have a lot of room for radical creativity.  A counterpoint being that the mid engine hatchback thing has already been done before in the challenge and crapcan racing with various degrees of hooptieness and success so it wouldn't necessarily be breaking new ground.  I also think an Italian subclass would be entertaining but maybe with less potential for the cars to be competitive.  Italian cars are just cool and I think it would be fun to see what people could come up with.

hobiercr
hobiercr GRM+ Memberand Dork
10/23/17 10:31 a.m.

While I also like the idea of a mid engine class remember that we only have 1 year to build this and that much engineering and fabrication for many of us is just not possible in that timeframe. Now if we set the sub class TWO years out (which was my idea at last years town hall meeting) it would give more potential for these types of builds.

hobiercr
hobiercr GRM+ Memberand Dork
10/23/17 10:32 a.m.

In reply to SVreX :

Paul, that first car does not have 4 doors nor a full roofline, i.e. not a wagon. I don't care what it has under it's skirt. wink

Matthew Kennedy
Matthew Kennedy GRM+ Memberand Reader
10/23/17 10:34 a.m.

In reply to hobiercr :

Then what is a VW Squareback? Not a wagon?

minivan_racer
minivan_racer UberDork
10/23/17 10:35 a.m.

I like the idea of wagons, but feel diy shooting brakes should also be allowed.  If its a crappy looking (like a plywood box built over where the hatch went or the like) conversion you could dq it from sub class consideration but it would probably get low concourse points anyway.

pimpm3
pimpm3 SuperDork
10/23/17 10:39 a.m.

Several things need to be considered when picking a subclass.  

Does it increase participation?  Does it provide enough variation to be interesting?  Are the vehicles readily available in a price point conducive to entering this event?  Is there real performance potential?  Is it possible to participate without mad fabrication skills.

Indy-Guy
Indy-Guy SuperDork
10/23/17 10:49 a.m.
pimpm3 said:

Several things need to be considered when picking a subclass.  

Does it increase participation?  Does it provide enough variation to be interesting?  Are the vehicles readily available in a price point conducive to entering this event?  Is there real performance potential?  Is it possible to participate without mad fabrication skills.

Based on your criteria let's evaluate the Wagon Class:

Increase  participation?   . . . probably many have expressed desire for the wagons.

Enough variation?  . . .  I think so.  Chevy, ford, chrysler, Volvo, Buick, etc. etc have offerings to choose from.

Readily available in price range? . . . yes

Performance potential? . . . yes very much so with the right choice

Participate without fab skills? . . .  Yes.

 

So, the clear choice in my opinion would be Wagons!  (I must confess that I do love the long roofs)

EvanB
EvanB GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/23/17 10:55 a.m.
hobiercr said:

In reply to SVreX :

Paul, that first car does not have 4 doors nor a full roofline, i.e. not a wagon. I don't care what it has under it's skirt. wink

Does my wagon not count?

hobiercr
hobiercr GRM+ Memberand Dork
10/23/17 11:01 a.m.

In reply to EvanB :

Tough call but we did discuss such animals at our hot tub round table. I believe the general consensus was that we did not want to discourage anyone from participating but needed to set some base requirements so that we didn't get a miata (or Porsche 928) with shooting brake roof added. IMHO the hive is best for approval on a case by case basis after a class is determined.

Personally, I would give a huge YES to your Opel and say PLEASE do build and bring it next year if we have a wagon class.

dropstep
dropstep SuperDork
10/23/17 11:03 a.m.

Im not going to be building a car but love the coverage and the subclass stuff has been cool. 70s land barges or wagons(im heavily biased there) would be awesome too see.  Anything that cant be miata would work for my entertainment!

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/23/17 11:11 a.m.
hobiercr said:

In reply to EvanB :

Tough call but we did discuss such animals at our hot tub round table. I believe the general consensus was that we did not want to discourage anyone from participating but needed to set some base requirements so that we didn't get a miata (or Porsche 928) with shooting brake roof added. IMHO the hive is best for approval on a case by case basis after a class is determined.

Personally, I would give a huge YES to your Opel and say PLEASE do build and bring it next year if we have a wagon class.

I wasn't in the hot tub (for a very good reason). 

However, I really disagree with your reasoning. 

The definition of "wagon" should be the same as the definition of "pickup" was- it needs to resemble a wagon. 

If that means a shooting brake Miata shows up, TERRIFIC!  That will be excellent in the magazine. 

We had a Miata pickup.  We deserve a Miata shooting brake.

Readers will be far more interested in a shooting brake Miata then in a bunch of stupid rules trying to define what a wagon is. 

And the rules makers will NEVER be able to figure out whether a WRX wagon is a wagon or a hatchback. The designers say it's a wagon. 

Nick (Bo) Comstock
Nick (Bo) Comstock MegaDork
10/23/17 11:13 a.m.

I like the wagon idea. 

I was thinking the other day that a one make sub class would be cool. Let everyone build a certain car to the budget and see who can do it better.

Robbie
Robbie GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/23/17 11:21 a.m.

I'm loving these ideas. Wagon, italian, mid engine, 1500cc, spec tire, team (axis v allies), etc.

Maybe a good question is: if you are considering the challenge, what would YOU commit to build and bring? 

What class is going to make you say: "yep I'm building one of those and bringing it."? 

Vote for yourself, and if you have friends who would also be swayed (maybe you are the head of the Midwestern council of cheap Sweedish Utes, as was suggested to me), vote for them too.

pimpm3
pimpm3 SuperDork
10/23/17 11:22 a.m.

The concern I had with a wagon class is defining it.  

Obviously a roadmaster or a Volvo fit the rules.  But what about a pt cruiser, a vibe, a matrix, a protege5.  Would a lowered cr-v fit the spirit of the rules? How about a four door golf?

Does a wagon need a minimum of 4 doors? 

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
10/23/17 11:23 a.m.

WAGON! I vote wagon!

Just like pickup class, you know it when you see it. Whether it's a Roadmaster, Outback, or Miata with a truck bed camper top grafted onto the trunk cheeky

QuasiMofo
QuasiMofo GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/23/17 11:23 a.m.

In reply to Robbie :

French car, Japanese suspension, Engine with French name.

That is all I can commit to currently.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua UltimaDork
10/23/17 11:24 a.m.

I vote ridiculously unreliable wagons.   

$950 Allroad

hobiercr
hobiercr GRM+ Memberand Dork
10/23/17 11:32 a.m.

In reply to MrJoshua :

He said it ran perfect for the first 177K!

hobiercr
hobiercr GRM+ Memberand Dork
10/23/17 11:35 a.m.

In reply to SVreX :

If we want to do shooting brakes, we should do shooting brakes and not wagons. We could demand that the wagon class entries seat 4 persons belted in.laugh

jstand
jstand Dork
10/23/17 11:39 a.m.
maschinenbau said:

WAGON! I vote wagon!

Just like pickup class, you know it when you see it. Whether it's a Roadmaster, Outback, or Miata with a truck bed camper top grafted onto the trunk cheeky

I think Massachusetts used to list the body style for Cherokee as "wagon" on the title and registration. 

wae
wae Dork
10/23/17 11:41 a.m.
jstand said:
maschinenbau said:

WAGON! I vote wagon!

Just like pickup class, you know it when you see it. Whether it's a Roadmaster, Outback, or Miata with a truck bed camper top grafted onto the trunk cheeky

I think Massachusetts used to list the body style for Cherokee as "wagon" on the title and registration. 

My GL350's title says "station wagon"

JtspellS
JtspellS SuperDork
10/23/17 11:45 a.m.

Well how about a one car class?

 

I.E. A class with only 9th gen Corolla's, or all BJ proteges, or possibly Cavalier's of just one generation, something that is easily found in the cheap pages or junkyard's around the majority of the country,  Seems like that can spur some innovative results in how to go fast.

 

Would not be a spec class, just all the same cars with crazy ways to make them go fast.

John Welsh
John Welsh MegaDork
10/23/17 11:51 a.m.

Wow... 

I am on the road finishing my second leg of the return from The Challenge.  

The ideas have been spectacular but of all of them here and at the hot tub, wagon has been the most reoccurring.  

Like PU, I think the story is the contravercy of the definition.  As such, what if we left it to the impartial judges? Imagine a judging sheet that says Wagon - yes or no. Three out of five judges agreeing it is a wagon makes it a wagon. 

Maybe a 3rd gen Camaro with Roadmaster rear fenders graphed on really is a wagon?  If it is not them we still have a 3rd gen competing for the overall.  

 

Bring your "wagon". Be interesting, be memorable, and be prepared to be convincing. 

If you bring a C3 like this it will be contravercial.  PLEASE bring a C3 like this!  Wood side might make it convincing yes

 

 

Please bring your French wagon and your Italian wagon too. 

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