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No Time
No Time Dork
8/10/20 8:17 a.m.

In the days of my youth I wouldn't have thought twice about the hub and wheel diameter, just the lug pattern.  Never had any issues, but maybe that was luck. 

Ive been shopping FB and CL looking for a deal on wheels and tires for my son's Suzuki SX4. It's 5x114 pattern and the factory wheels are 16x6.5 with a 60.1 center bore and 50mm positive offset (according to wheel-size.com).

How critical is the center bore? 

Any suggestions on possible donor vehicles that could fit? The sellers don't always list specs for lug pattern or wheel dimensions (actually there are times they don't even list what vehicle they had them on).

If I don't find something local, I may just order from TR. I could get a set of wheels and tires for it for $650, and know they fit and I won't have issues. If I go this route, how do I make sure GRM gets credit as the source for picking TR?

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
8/10/20 8:21 a.m.

The center bore just centers up the wheels while you tighten the lugs.  Same thing as a 'centering ring' on an aftermarket wheel.  

Ideally you want the same size as OEM. If not that, you want larger.  If smaller, you'll have to machine it out to the right size or larger.

I believe Toyotas have a 60.1, but Honda, Hyundai, and Mazda all have larger center bores on their relatively modern 5x114.5 wheels (but always double-check somewhere to be sure)

newrider3
newrider3 Reader
8/10/20 8:24 a.m.

Only problem is too small, obviously won't fit. Too big is just fine.

Unpopular opinion - hubcentric rings are not necessary at all with proper lug torque and tightening sequence. The weight of your car is not carried by the hub center spigot (or by the wheel studs in a shear direction), it's carried by the clamping force of the lugs and the friction of the interface between the wheel and hub.

John Welsh (Moderate Supporter)
John Welsh (Moderate Supporter) Mod Squad
8/10/20 8:30 a.m.

In reply to newrider3 :

But Hubcentric rings are too cheap to not buy. 

Amazon samples: $9.99 Metal$5.99 plastic

No Time
No Time Dork
8/10/20 8:37 a.m.

This is good info.

Since my Hyundai is only getting used a couple times a month with wfh, I may put my winter wheels back on the Hyundai. Then I can put the Hyundai alloys on the Suzuki and have decent tires on it until I find another set of wheels.

That way it can get through the safety inspection and he can continue to practice driving stick. 

EvanB (Forum Supporter)
EvanB (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/10/20 8:38 a.m.
John Welsh (Moderate Supporter) said:

In reply to newrider3 :

But Hubcentric rings are too cheap to not buy. 

Amazon samples: $9.99 Metal$5.99 plastic

It's even cheaper if you don't buy them.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/10/20 8:41 a.m.

Agreed. The rings are for a bit of convenience but even then not much because the lugs get the wheel within 1-2mm of where it needs to be even before you tighen them up.

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia Dork
8/10/20 8:42 a.m.
EvanB (Forum Supporter)

It's even cheaper if you don't buy them.

I love that ,

can I quote you on that !

No Time
No Time Dork
8/10/20 8:46 a.m.

Another related question:

Are lug nut tapers standardized?

I'm guess the OEMs are standardized, but don't want to assume. I know the Hyundai and Suzuki have different size/pitch lug nuts. 

John Welsh (Moderate Supporter)
John Welsh (Moderate Supporter) Mod Squad
8/10/20 8:49 a.m.
EvanB (Forum Supporter) said:
John Welsh (Moderate Supporter) said:

In reply to newrider3 :

But Hubcentric rings are too cheap to not buy. 

Amazon samples: $9.99 Metal$5.99 plastic

It's even cheaper if you don't buy them.

You are correct, Touch'e

DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) PowerDork
8/10/20 8:52 a.m.

The taper is standardized, but the stud diameter and hole diameter are not. You can end up with wheels that may have been from a vehicle with larger studs, not that it matters much. You'll just end up with a little more slop to take up with the nuts as you tighten them. The only wheels I've ever used that required a different taper were steel race wheels , like Bassetts or Aeros where they are made with a 45 degree taper seat rather than 60 degree.

No Time
No Time Dork
8/10/20 8:54 a.m.

I checked and the difference is 

Suzuki M12 x 1.25

Hyundai M12 x 1.5

So not an issue for seating Suzuki lug nuts on Hyundai wheels. 

PMRacing
PMRacing GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
8/10/20 8:54 a.m.

Counter point on hub centric rings.  The snows for my car had hubcenteic rings. I forgot them one time but torqued the wheels without any weight on the wheels to make sure they were lug centered. I couldn't drive above 70mph without getting big vibrations. Remembered I had the rings, installed them, and the car smoothed out. 

As for lug nuts they are either conical or ball shaped. Make sure you have what matches the wheels. 

DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) PowerDork
8/10/20 9:40 a.m.

In reply to PMRacing :

Ooops....I forgot the ball shaped ones....Hondas had them for one.

fidelity101 (Forum Supporter)
fidelity101 (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
8/10/20 9:47 a.m.

piece of mind is well spent at 20 bucks, plus if it shakes less then you're fine. I've never been this lucky. 

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/10/20 9:48 a.m.
DeadSkunk (Warren) said:

In reply to PMRacing :

Ooops....I forgot the ball shaped ones....Hondas had them for one.

And Mercedes. I had to get new lug nuts when I put Mercedes wheels on the Vanagon, and I have to watch my lug nut/wheel matches for my CRX and Miata wheels.

Vigo (Forum Supporter)
Vigo (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
8/10/20 9:49 a.m.

They're also different facing material depending on what type of wheel they snug down to. That's becoming less of an issue as steel wheels become less and less common. 

I could go either way on hubcentric rings. In my opinion they just require less care and caution when tightening lugs, because you CAN tighten a wheel offcenter without them if you aren't taking your time and making at least two passes (snug, tighten). Honestly, getting the measurements you need to order the correct ones is more of a hassle than the actual $10 is if you can't find the spec and don't own a caliper or something accurate <1mm that will fit in there to measure.

NickD
NickD UltimaDork
8/10/20 10:17 a.m.

I ran my Miata hard for two years without centering rings. Never broke a wheel stud or had any catastrophic failure. Put them on this year, because it seemed the responsible thing to do. I can't tell any difference in how it drives and it really didn't make it that much easier to install the wheels. Also, nearly had them bone me, when I went to swap wheels and tires at a track and the one spacer wedged itself to the center bore of the hub and had to be essentially chiseled off.

No Time
No Time Dork
8/10/20 10:18 a.m.

Thanks everyone for the info.
 

I ordered a set of rings. 

We need to replace a front wheel bearing, and the rears seam noisy, so it's worth the cost of the rings to avoid creating new vibrations to chase down. 

ColoradoBob
ColoradoBob New Reader
8/10/20 10:42 a.m.

When mounting wheels with bolts versus studs (Audi, VW, etc) it's difficult to get the wheel centered without a centering ring, so using a centering ring is more important.

Also be aware that there are different diameters of ball seats.  VW and Audi are the same, and I know OZ is different than Audi/VW.  There likely are others as well.  As stated earlier, the lug nut/bolt seat needs to match the wheel

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/10/20 10:47 a.m.

I used ball seat lugs on tapered wheels for years.

 

The other way probably would not work.

dps214
dps214 HalfDork
8/10/20 2:22 p.m.

In my experience they do make wheel installation a bit easier. On a car that gets frequent tire changes I'd want some form of centering just for that. But otherwise, no problem. And I'd sooner run no rings at all than plastic rings that inevitably get crushed or adhere themselves to the brake rotor.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/10/20 8:39 p.m.

Hubcentric is always good, but not necessary.

If the wheel bore is larger, definitely make sure you

A) don't get wheels that use "mag" type nuts.  Acorn/tapered lug will center the hole on the stud.  Mag style lugs really need proper hub bores.
B) don't do that thing where you put 5x4.75 wheels on a 5x120mm hub.  People do this sometimes between an American car and a BMW.  The problem is, 120mm is close, but not quite right... 4.724".  The first lug that gets tightened centers the wheel a mm or so and you'll always have a nasty wobble.

But running traditional acorn-style lugs on a non-hubcentric wheel is perfectly fine.  Most aftermarket wheels do just that.  They have to sell a 5x5 lug pattern that fits jeep, gm, ford, chrysler, and a few other brands... all with different hub bores, some with 4x4.  They just make the hub bore big enough to fit the largest hub it might encounter and bingo.

Some brands rightfully reduce the weight rating when they aren't hubcentric.  With a proper hub bore, the lugs are only holding the wheel on.  Without the proper hub bore, the lugs are holding it on, up, left, right, in, out, and everything.  The only thing preventing a pothole from snapping the lugs is the clamping force of the wheel against the hub... but honestly, I've never seen it become an issue, other than pretty massive impacts that would rip any wheel off.

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
8/10/20 8:42 p.m.

I thought there were a couple of different conical lug angles?

EDIT: A quick search suggests there are both 45 and 60 degree seats/lugs.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/10/20 8:43 p.m.

In reply to Jesse Ransom :

Nearly always 60 degree for street, sometimes 45 for racing.

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