1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 10
Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/27/21 7:01 a.m.

It is hilarious how defensive EV proponents get when discussing their cars. It's as bad as discussing veganism or homosexuality. God forbid someone has a different opinion about the subject. It sets them off like a bomb. 

 

Chris_V
Chris_V UberDork
7/27/21 7:07 a.m.
Toyman01 + Sized and said:

It is hilarious how defensive EV proponents get when discussing their cars. It's as bad as discussing veganism or homosexuality. God forbid someone has a different opinion about the subject. It sets them off like a bomb.

It is hilarious how defensive ICE proponents get when a different method of propulsion is mentioned.

It isn't about a different opinion It's about stupid berkeleying questions that they should know the berkeleying answer to and arguing with ZERO experience for the sake of arguing. JUST LIKE FOR ANY CAR. I mean, how's the torque rated? AT THE MOTOR just like any car. Arguing about torque at the wheels at different gear ratios is berkeleying STUPID. Has nothing to do with an EV or not. If I said my MINI made x number lb ft of torque and some moron said what he said, I'd still respond the same berkeleying way. Yes, this sort of E36 M3 pisses me off.

jharry3
jharry3 GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/27/21 7:26 a.m.

I'll buy an electric car when they pry my I.C.E. vehicles from my cold, dead hands...   ;-) 

And yes, my job depends upon taking  dino-juice out of the ground. Engineering for its production pays WAY better than the wind & solar industries.  Like 2 times better.

 

JesseWolfe
JesseWolfe Reader
7/27/21 7:33 a.m.

I'll buy an EV when price ( new or used ), reliability and customer self service market support exists, and when practically of the vehicle is on point.  I personally rack a lot of miles up a week commuting, at least 500-600 miles, and an EV like the Alpha Wolf would really hit smack on my Overton Window of EV requirements.  Fingers crossed the right vehicle eventually comes along in the next 3-5 years. 

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman SuperDork
7/27/21 7:42 a.m.

I'll probably get one as our next Daily driver.  One of each would be a good fit. Probably will be a few more years since I told my wife we can get a new car when she hits 200k miles in her CRV. In 4 years she's only put on 55k miles. 

chaparral
chaparral Dork
7/27/21 7:43 a.m.

As far as power requirements for an EV for apartment-lot and on-street parking go, Level 2 is anything above the inadequate 120Vx15A Level 1 standard.

240V x 20A, 4800W, will add 40 kWh to a battery in 8 hours, satisfying the vast majority of customers. That only requires 10-gauge wire and can be a small, inexpensive device, possibly integrated into light poles or parking meters.

For the purposes of grid balancing, however, the power company will want to use  home and workplace chargers to dump power when they have excess solar or wind energy, so I anticipate future EVs will accommodate the full 19.2 kW allowed by SAE J1772. That unit will be more expensive as there'll be a data link to tell it to vary power input between 2 kW and 19.2 kW, and 4-gauge cables to handle the 80A it'll be drawing. 

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/27/21 8:21 a.m.

When I find one that is as good or better than my current ride and I need to replace my current ride.   I have huge hopes that the big three German manufacturers will get in the game and keep the German car feel fit and finish and it will just happen to be an ev. 
 

If Mercedes can make an EV e350 they would sell boatloads of them.  If I could get my CLS 550 in EV I would.  It is not the propulsion of a car it is everything else about a car that is important to me.  Audi with the etron i think is going to be a game changer in the ev market and we will see the other German manufacturers follow. 
 

I am excited about the future. 

chaparral
chaparral Dork
7/27/21 8:22 a.m.

In reply to dean1484 :

Dean,

I would test-drive a Model 3 Dual Motor. It'll be at least as quick and roomy as your CLS550

STM317
STM317 UberDork
7/27/21 8:25 a.m.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
frenchyd said:

Whatever you decide will be fine.   But do consider the cost of delaying.  Resale of used EV's is strong and I foresee no  reason it should drop.   Unlike cars, brushless motors don't wear out quickly. There are Tesla's used as taxi's with near 300,000 miles on them and the batteries still retain 85% of charge capacity.  

Source on that? Not doubting you, but the C&D long-term Model 3 is down to 93% after only 24k miles. Limited battery life (and the cost of replacing them) is one of the things giving me pause about buying an EV.

Tesloop was the all-Tesla taxi service that shared all of their maintenance data. But the company seems to have closed, and I can't find their document with the maintenance and cost data. They put as much as 17k miles per month on each Tesla and charged primarily with Superchargers. The most degradation that they saw was a Model X with 330k miles and 77% battery capacity remaining.

The average degradation seems to be less than 10% at the 150k mark, but there are some concerning exceptions

In general it seems like degradation in a modern, liquid cooled EV battery is probably not a concern for most users that would be slow charging at home most of the time.

STM317
STM317 UberDork
7/27/21 8:28 a.m.
dean1484 said:

When I find one that is as good or better than my current ride and I need to replace my current ride.   I have huge hopes that the big three German manufacturers will get in the game and keep the German car feel fit and finish and it will just happen to be an ev. 
 

If Mercedes can make an EV e350 they would sell boatloads of them.  If I could get my CLS 550 in EV I would.  It is not the propulsion of a car it is everything else about a car that is important to me.  Audi with the etron i think is going to be a game changer in the ev market and we will see the other German manufacturers follow. 

The Mercedes EQS is expected to be on sale in the US late 2021:

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/27/21 8:34 a.m.
Chris_V said:
Toyman01 + Sized and said:

It is hilarious how defensive EV proponents get when discussing their cars. It's as bad as discussing veganism or homosexuality. God forbid someone has a different opinion about the subject. It sets them off like a bomb.

It is hilarious how defensive ICE proponents get when a different method of propulsion is mentioned.

It isn't about a different opinion It's about stupid berkeleying questions that they should know the berkeleying answer to and arguing with ZERO experience for the sake of arguing. JUST LIKE FOR ANY CAR. I mean, how's the torque rated? AT THE MOTOR just like any car. Arguing about torque at the wheels at different gear ratios is berkeleying STUPID. Has nothing to do with an EV or not. If I said my MINI made x number lb ft of torque and some moron said what he said, I'd still respond the same berkeleying way. Yes, this sort of E36 M3 pisses me off.

Agreed. You get tired of hearing the same statements with no thought behind them, and the same ridiculous claims of weekly cross-country trips where you are penalized for actually stopping to eat or pee, and statements like "I'll buy one when I can go 600 miles without stopping and recharge in 60 seconds and it only costs as much as this 2004 Civic I pulled out of a river". It's not the different opinion, it's the uneducated or uninformed opinions. Assume that anyone with experience with an EV has been hearing this kind of thing for a while.

It's not always that bad - Toyman, your wish list for a truck can actually be met today by an ICE, which is unusual in those wish lists - but somehow any discussion gets pushed into black and white, "if it can't do everything it can't do anything" territory almost immediately.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/27/21 8:37 a.m.
STM317 said:
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
frenchyd said:

Whatever you decide will be fine.   But do consider the cost of delaying.  Resale of used EV's is strong and I foresee no  reason it should drop.   Unlike cars, brushless motors don't wear out quickly. There are Tesla's used as taxi's with near 300,000 miles on them and the batteries still retain 85% of charge capacity.  

Source on that? Not doubting you, but the C&D long-term Model 3 is down to 93% after only 24k miles. Limited battery life (and the cost of replacing them) is one of the things giving me pause about buying an EV.

Tesloop was the all-Tesla taxi service that shared all of their maintenance data. But the company seems to have closed, and I can't find their document with the maintenance and cost data. They put as much as 17k miles per month on each Tesla and charged primarily with Superchargers. The most degradation that they saw was a Model X with 330k miles and 77% battery capacity remaining.

The average degradation seems to be less than 10% at the 150k mark, but there are some concerning exceptions

In general it seems like degradation in a modern, liquid cooled EV battery is probably not a concern for most users that would be slow charging at home most of the time.

I think it would be fair to say that modern EV battery longevity* looks to be roughly similar to ICE engine longevity** overall. They have different ways of expressing their age - a gradual drop in range versus typically an increase in oil consumption and a loss of power but sometimes a complete failure like a head gasket*** - but in both cases, something will have to be done by a certain point. And there are outliers in both.

 

 

*no counting the Leaf
**not counting Subaru
***counting Subaru this time

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
7/27/21 8:49 a.m.
Chris_V said:
pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

If Chevy were to release a Bolt/Sonic EV with 250hp/300 torques in a $25K platform that can handle I'd be all over it. I would love to replace the FiST with an electric hot-hatch and can't swing a Tesla 3 performance. Make it small, make it a hatch, make it handle like the FiST. Perfect for autocrossing and around-town driving. If I ever head to the Tail of the Dragon, I will deal with recharging on the way. My hope is that electrification will make cars cheaper eventually.

200 hp and 266 lb ft of torque is pretty close to that, especially when you factor in the INSTANT delivery of that power and torque, with no waiting around.

Then add good tires instead of the crap eco ones it came with and the Eibach lowering springs (like the red one I posted) or even coilovers, and you get a REALLY low CG hot hatch with 250-300 mile range for cheap. How cheap? For the last year and a half, since GM lost the tax credits, they've been selling new for as little as $22k (cheaper if you are a Costco member). As I mentioned above, our 2020 Bolt cost $25k out the door with a decent selection of options (though it was the LT model with the heated cloth seats). An aquaintance just bought a new '21 for $22,500...

As for the Dragon, my wife was going to take hers on that when she drove down to Greeneville earlier this month, but didn't end up with enough time. TN is setting up a charging initiative where you'll never be more than 50 miles from a fast charger. With a car like the Bolt with a 250-300 mile range, that means you can top off at a local charger, run the Dragon and still have enough charge to get to the next charging station.

Indeed it's nearly an exact fit. I love my Bolt, and it's way quicker than it should be.

STM317
STM317 UberDork
7/27/21 8:58 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
frenchyd said:

Whatever you decide will be fine.   But do consider the cost of delaying.  Resale of used EV's is strong and I foresee no  reason it should drop.   Unlike cars, brushless motors don't wear out quickly. There are Tesla's used as taxi's with near 300,000 miles on them and the batteries still retain 85% of charge capacity.  

Source on that? Not doubting you, but the C&D long-term Model 3 is down to 93% after only 24k miles. Limited battery life (and the cost of replacing them) is one of the things giving me pause about buying an EV.

 

I think it would be fair to say that modern EV battery longevity* looks to be roughly similar to ICE engine longevity** overall. They have different ways of expressing their age - a gradual drop in range versus typically an increase in oil consumption and a loss of power but sometimes a complete failure like a head gasket*** - but in both cases, something will have to be done by a certain point. And there are outliers in both.

 

 

*no counting the Leaf
**not counting Subaru
***counting Subaru this time

Your occasional Subaru digs always make me laugh.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
7/27/21 9:00 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:
Chris_V said:
Toyman01 + Sized and said:

It is hilarious how defensive EV proponents get when discussing their cars. It's as bad as discussing veganism or homosexuality. God forbid someone has a different opinion about the subject. It sets them off like a bomb.

It is hilarious how defensive ICE proponents get when a different method of propulsion is mentioned.

It isn't about a different opinion It's about stupid berkeleying questions that they should know the berkeleying answer to and arguing with ZERO experience for the sake of arguing. JUST LIKE FOR ANY CAR. I mean, how's the torque rated? AT THE MOTOR just like any car. Arguing about torque at the wheels at different gear ratios is berkeleying STUPID. Has nothing to do with an EV or not. If I said my MINI made x number lb ft of torque and some moron said what he said, I'd still respond the same berkeleying way. Yes, this sort of E36 M3 pisses me off.

Agreed. You get tired of hearing the same statements with no thought behind them, and the same ridiculous claims of weekly cross-country trips where you are penalized for actually stopping to eat or pee, and statements like "I'll buy one when I can go 600 miles without stopping and recharge in 60 seconds and it only costs as much as this 2004 Civic I pulled out of a river". It's not the different opinion, it's the uneducated or uninformed opinions. Assume that anyone with experience with an EV has been hearing this kind of thing for a while.

It's not always that bad - Toyman, your wish list for a truck can actually be met today by an ICE, which is unusual in those wish lists - but somehow any discussion gets pushed into black and white, "if it can't do everything it can't do anything" territory almost immediately.

Yes it absolutely blows me away. I went from DD the 88 Accord to DD the Bolt on my 80 mile daily round trip, and despite gas prices nearly doubling, I still get the wacky comments:

 

"It's just a little wind up car!" - right, with more acceleration and cargo space than your generic CUV

"I'm worried about the battery life over time" says the guy with an Odyssey on its third $4K transmission replacement

"They're expensive!" says the lady with a 84 month loan on a rando Mitsubishi getting 14 MPG

I even had someone complain about the 95 mph top speed. 

 

The wheel torque thing is absurd as well. One silly advertisement talks about wheel torque and everyone suddenly assumes that's somehow an EV thing. 

 

Oh well. I drive past a lot of gas stations every day. This thing is saving me so much money that it will pay for itself and the Accord it replaced within a decade.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
7/27/21 9:03 a.m.
Tom1200 said:

I'm taking a wait and see attitude for a whole host of reasons; everything from cost to net reduction in pollution.

Those pioneers who headed out west first got the choice pieces of land. Those of us who went out recently paid massive prices to rent the bits of land to the descendants  of those original pioneers. 
You won't be the first but if you're among the last you won't gain what they did. 
 

racerfink
racerfink UltraDork
7/27/21 9:23 a.m.
frenchyd said:
Tom1200 said:

I'm taking a wait and see attitude for a whole host of reasons; everything from cost to net reduction in pollution.

Those pioneers who headed out west first got the choice pieces of land. Those of us who went out recently paid massive prices to rent the bits of land to the descendants  of those original pioneers. 
You won't be the first but if you're among the last you won't gain what they did. 
 

So you’re saying they’ll only make so many EV’s and never make any more???  

Insert 1000 crying/laughing emoticons here

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
7/27/21 11:02 a.m.

In reply to racerfink :

OK I'll try to explain it better for you.   I wasn't talking about production at all. 
I spoke of benefits.  The first to arrive got the best.  Those who arrived late paid more.  
    You buy gas every time the tank is low.   Lear's say it's $50 a tankful  and you buy a tank every week.  That's $200 a month  or $2400 a year.  
 With an EV  your electric bill will go up. Maybe $8 a week $24 a month, $288 a year.  When do you want to start saving money?  
   How much does it cost and how often do you change your oil?  Well that's a 100% savings.  

Chris_V
Chris_V UberDork
7/27/21 11:27 a.m.
chaparral said:

As far as power requirements for an EV for apartment-lot and on-street parking go, Level 2 is anything above the inadequate 120Vx15A Level 1 standard.

240V x 20A, 4800W, will add 40 kWh to a battery in 8 hours, satisfying the vast majority of customers. That only requires 10-gauge wire and can be a small, inexpensive device, possibly integrated into light poles or parking meters.

Europe is already doing that:

 

As are a few places in the US:

 

This is not a new idea:

MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter)
MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) New Reader
7/27/21 11:42 a.m.

To answer the original question as to "when": Hopefully never. At this point I would rather move to an area I can live car free (or mostly car free + a fun car) than depend on a beige appliance no matter it's means of propulsion. There are no EVs that appeal to me, although that's not saying much since most new cars do not appeal to me -- They're too expensive and too much of a hassle to work on. With the direction the car industry is going, I don't expect there to be any vehicles left that I will actually want to buy new by the time I could afford one, since I will only daily things smaller than a house.

The biggest problem EVs have is that they don't solve traffic or the safety issues. Even if you can cruise down a highway in traffic without driver inputs, you still need to be belted in lest someone else knock you off the road, at which point you need to keep your limbs in the right places and avoid using things like a laptop lest the airbags implant it into your face... This still comes off as worse than taking the train, since you get more room and can eat, use your laptop, etc. Even if you make the fantastic leap of imagination that we'd all have self driving EVs that talk to each other and fully remove the driver, well, what's the point then? Being on the train gives you a bathroom, possibly a cafe, more comfortabl seats, and if the train's electric, lower environmental impact.

I'd much rather we lobbied and got more transit infrastructure built out so we could actually remove bad drivers and traffic from the road ways rather than just all cram ourselves into EVs. Because tbh, bad drivers and the gigantic modern SUVs and trucks are already significantly impinging on my automotive enjoyment whether they're EV or not.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/27/21 11:45 a.m.

I am totally making an ELECTRO PARK sign for my garage.

EV and self-driving cars are two separate things. EVs do not require self-driving, and self-driving does not require electric power.

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/27/21 11:46 a.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to racerfink :

OK I'll try to explain it better for you.   I wasn't talking about production at all. 
I spoke of benefits.  The first to arrive got the best.  Those who arrived late paid more.  
    You buy gas every time the tank is low.   Lear's say it's $50 a tankful  and you buy a tank every week.  That's $200 a month  or $2400 a year.  
 With an EV  your electric bill will go up. Maybe $8 a week $24 a month, $288 a year.  When do you want to start saving money?  
   How much does it cost and how often do you change your oil?  Well that's a 100% savings.  

That's a better analogy than your first one, but there's still significant upfront costs to getting an EV that are gradually being reduced. If someone waits 5 years, yes, they'll be buying gas that whole time, but also, in 5 years there will be a lot more EV infrastructure, more models on the market, and those models will be more refined, have better range, better tech, better batteries, etc. 

Early adopters are essential to any technology getting off the ground. But what did people gain when they paid $1000 for DVD players in 1997, vs. those who paid $100 in 2000?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/27/21 11:56 a.m.

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

3 years of DVD video instead of VHS :) 

(bought a CD player in 1986)

I think we're past the early adopter phase of EVs now. The market has reached a point of maturity where further improvements are more likely to be incremental than revolutionary. That's when I decided to make the move, when I figured the car I bought would not be a joke in 10 years. I've definitely seen an increase in the infrastructure, but changes in range, tech and batteries have been relatively small. About the only thing I wish we had was a heat pump instead of a resistive heater, but that has yet to actually be a problem for our use.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
7/27/21 12:01 p.m.
Chris_V said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Chris_V :

The Bolt looks great in photos.  But next to the Volt, it makes the Volt look tiny.

it's actually about the same size as a GTI. The Volt is just a low sedan (and I lowered mine, on top of that). Again, go and see one in person and drive it.

This jibes with real life "What minivan is that?" experiences.

When I think hot hatch, I think of something closer to Veloster than Caravan, no matter what its raw numbers are.

Again, it's about the same size as a GTI. Nowhere NEAR a GD caravan.

 

266ft-lb also doesn't sound impressive without context.  I mean, my RX-7 has 612ft-lb at the driveshaft, or 2980ft-lb at the axles....  Where in the EV drivetrain does the number come from?

At the motor (rated just like any other GD car. Hows your berkeleying RX7 rated? It's not rated at the wheels is it? Well you compare at the motor just like you do in any other car), then add a 7:1 final drive ratio to get at-the-wheels torque. Again DRIVE one. JFC how many times do people have to say it. I HATE it when people argue with zero berkeleying experience just to berkeleying argue.

When there is only one "gear", and the motor RPM is not confined to a certain expected range like ICEs, it IS a valid question.  Because I don't know.

Okay, so that is at the motor.  What is the final drive ratio?  2:1? 10:1?  There isn't any context to make a comparison yet.  People can make a judgement about what 266ft-lb feels like in a ICE vehicle because their drive ratios are all in the same general range, 4:1ish to .7ish in the transmission and 4:1ish to 3:1ish at the differential, give or take some. 

 

i still contend that the Bolt is huge, the height IS why it is huge.

thatsnowinnebago
thatsnowinnebago GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
7/27/21 12:14 p.m.

Hopefully we'll pick one up in the next year or so. My wife is looking to upgrade from her 2007 Milan soon-ish and I'm pushing for an EV. Her car is really our DD so she wants my input. 

I hadn't considered a Bolt at all untill this thread. Seems like they might be a decent option, even though her Ford loving father might have a heart attack. 

1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 10
Our Preferred Partners
TDG7elUmt8Y5FpWjJ8Fe97ZOXYGyC4RXLehyBJSmhlWvICmX3AXmDuEkDqXuoft1