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Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
7/27/21 6:59 p.m.

In reply to tester (Forum Supporter) :

I think that point was somewhere in the past couple years for me.  What cemented it was Ford abandoning all US automotive sales.  This wasn't a cause, but more of a symptom of where the North American automotive market is heading.

We had a thought exercise this weekend, if you had $40k to spend on ANY car,  but you had to buy a NEW one, and get rid of your collection of crap, what would it be?  I could not think of a single one.  I couldn't really think of a single one with no price cap either.  Everything is lacking.  Maaaaaaybe a Mitsubishi Mirage but those are kinda tall too.  The ND really needs to lose the convertible top so it can get some more seat room to fit my skeleton in it.  The Frisbee twins are wide for my tastes.  Etc.

 

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/27/21 7:22 p.m.

In reply to tester (Forum Supporter) :

Apparently the number of those people who wanted to buy that "supercar" from a big OEM has shrunk so much that the market has dried up.  

We can blame the car companies all we want (and I have plenty of times), but the reality is that the market drives what is being built and sold.  SUV and CUVs cost the same to build as cars do, and sell at higher prices, thanks to demand for them- it would be stupid to continue to spend money in a market where you lose money.  And we can't blame CAFE for this, either- as the SUV's are almost identical to their car counterparts- or even worse- the wheelbase for an Escape is 6" SHORTER than a Fusion. 

Sad that the market for cars is so small that fewer are even selling cars, but it's reality.

We still have the Miata, Vette, and Mustang, among some others.  Plus all of the cars we own.

EV's will come when they come.

tester (Forum Supporter)
tester (Forum Supporter) Reader
7/27/21 8:22 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

I don't think any of those name plates will survive the decade as gas powered automobiles. 
 

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/27/21 8:23 p.m.
alfadriver said:

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

It's easier to not engage.  

time will really tell how EV's are taken in the market.   

I know. Sometimes it's fun to poke the bear just to see if it still knows how to dance. devil

 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
7/27/21 8:41 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to tester (Forum Supporter) :

I think that point was somewhere in the past couple years for me.  What cemented it was Ford abandoning all US automotive sales.  This wasn't a cause, but more of a symptom of where the North American automotive market is heading.

We had a thought exercise this weekend, if you had $40k to spend on ANY car,  but you had to buy a NEW one, and get rid of your collection of crap, what would it be?  I could not think of a single one.  I couldn't really think of a single one with no price cap either.  Everything is lacking.  Maaaaaaybe a Mitsubishi Mirage but those are kinda tall too.  The ND really needs to lose the convertible top so it can get some more seat room to fit my skeleton in it.  The Frisbee twins are wide for my tastes.  Etc.

 

I think the reason cars don't appeal is because of traffic.  It's hard to care what appliance you're driving creeping along in rush hour traffic.  
     The sacrifice of a compact  sports car compared to the comfort of the SUV? What for?  Most don't care that  the sports car will exceed 1 g in a corner. They want room for their friends and enough cup holders. 
 So an EV is a cheaper more efficient appliance.  Things change. 
   
 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
7/27/21 8:41 p.m.
Toyman01 + Sized and said:
alfadriver said:

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

It's easier to not engage.  

time will really tell how EV's are taken in the market.   

I know. Sometimes it's fun to poke the bear just to see if it still knows how to dance. devil

 

Honestly that's really disappointing

noddaz
noddaz GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/27/21 8:44 p.m.

When do you think you'll buy your first electric car?

With the way I don't make money, I will probably buy one when EVs are Challenge priced.

GTwannaB
GTwannaB GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
7/27/21 8:57 p.m.

What if it was a classic Lotus $6500. Assuming the conversion is not by Lucas, could it be fun?

Eclat - looks nice

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/d/albany-lotus-eclat-electric-car-kit/7356718496.html

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
7/27/21 10:52 p.m.

I've been driving electric trucks for 31 years. 

I wonder if those of us that had these as kids are less fearful of full sized EVs? I am not. Not one bit.

racerfink
racerfink UltraDork
7/28/21 12:16 a.m.

Yeah, like that awful, acrid smell when an armature goes bad, or how you have to have the latest, greatest batteries...  between slot cars and 1/10th scale on-road, I know all about the pitfalls.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/28/21 6:06 a.m.
tester (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to alfadriver :

I don't think any of those name plates will survive the decade as gas powered automobiles. 
 

I have not seen any realistic path where they are all gone in a decade.  These cars biggest threat isn't EV's by any measure, it's tightening emissions requirements- but I also see that they all have paths to meet them.  The only one that I would honestly question is the Miata- but at the same time, Mazda has put so much into that small part of the market, they will keep doing something.  Even if it's an EV, it will probably very fun to drive.

Then again, I also have not seen the path where EV's take over the majority of the market in a decade.  Could happen, but I just don't see it.

68TR250
68TR250 HalfDork
7/28/21 7:02 a.m.

I doubt if I will live long enough to HAVE to go EV.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
7/28/21 8:39 a.m.
MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) said:

At this point I would rather move to an area I can live car free (or mostly car free + a fun car) than depend on a beige appliance no matter it's means of propulsion.

I'd much rather we lobbied and got more transit infrastructure built out so we could actually remove bad drivers and traffic from the road ways rather than just all cram ourselves into EVs. Because tbh, bad drivers and the gigantic modern SUVs and trucks are already significantly impinging on my automotive enjoyment whether they're EV or not.

I totally agree with all of this. I am unconvinced that one that is enough material to build the needed number of electric cars to replace the everyone's car. Two even if there is how much environmental damage will there be in mining all of this.

IMO better mass transit and bicycle infrastructure is a much better solution to the envirnomental issues we fact then building a crap ton of electric cars.

the_machina
the_machina Reader
7/28/21 8:48 a.m.

In reply to dean1484 :

Have you taken a look at the Porsche Taycan? Its from one of the German luxury brands, is a 4 door 4 seat performance luxury car - maybe an electric version of your CLS?

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
7/28/21 10:29 a.m.
93EXCivic said:
MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) said:

At this point I would rather move to an area I can live car free (or mostly car free + a fun car) than depend on a beige appliance no matter it's means of propulsion.

I'd much rather we lobbied and got more transit infrastructure built out so we could actually remove bad drivers and traffic from the road ways rather than just all cram ourselves into EVs. Because tbh, bad drivers and the gigantic modern SUVs and trucks are already significantly impinging on my automotive enjoyment whether they're EV or not.

I totally agree with all of this. I am unconvinced that one that is enough material to build the needed number of electric cars to replace the everyone's car. Two even if there is how much environmental damage will there be in mining all of this.

IMO better mass transit and bicycle infrastructure is a much better solution to the envirnomental isses we fact then building a crap ton of electric cars.

Bicycles may work down South and for the young and fit. But there are a whole lot of us living where snowfall is sometimes measured in feet.  Who likely would suffer heart attacks attempting a daily commute.  Or are forced to carry heavy and or bulky things as part of our daily movement ( think plumbers, carpenters, electricians, and other tradesmen, craftsmen, etc) 

  Then there your hated SUV's.Think of mon's  taking the kids to soccer, football, Hockey, etc.  often with teammates  or other children to dance recitals, art classes, to & from school and school activities.  
  Maybe they have a sideline business of shopping garages and estate sales to recycle items?  
  I personally would use a SUV to tow my race car  and sleep in it when I get there. 
   
Mass transit only works when there are masses going the same direction.  Rural, and suburban often don't fit that criteria. 
  The freedom you enjoy picking where to live and telling others how to live. Applies to all. Some will be left driving older and older ICE's  for financial reasons. Some will choose EV's because they Contain 25% less material  than ICE's and require 25%  less labor to build. 
     The operating cost savings will allow them to put that towards other priorities in their lives. 
     Really the environment  doesn't much care if it's an Iron ore mine,  a bauxite mine,  or a buckle mine.   It does care that internal combustion is emitted by every single ICE in use. Perhaps as many as 5-6 billion in daily use. 
  While some electricity is still generated by coal, oil, and other hydrocarbons.  More and more of it's being generated  by a renewable source.  In addition the modest size of most renewables means less energy is wasted in transmission. 

Chris_V
Chris_V UberDork
7/28/21 12:10 p.m.
Toyman01 + Sized and said:
alfadriver said:

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

It's easier to not engage.  

time will really tell how EV's are taken in the market.   

I know. Sometimes it's fun to poke the bear just to see if it still knows how to dance. devil

So basically you get off on being an assclown. Great. Why is being an shiny happy person such a valuable goal to some people?

Chris_V
Chris_V UberDork
7/28/21 12:27 p.m.
tester (Forum Supporter) said:

To be quite honest, the electric car thing just makes me sad. I realize that one day in the not so distant future there will no cars on the market that have any interest for me. I don't think I am alone in this sentiment. 

Many "car guys" have a dream car that they want to buy brand new off the show room floor just once in their life.  That dream car might have a turbo, a V8, a flat six, V10, or maybe a even V12 with a gated shifter. By the time many of us achieve that financial point, after years of working, saving, and investing; we realize that the dream vehicle will simply not exist at any price. 
 

What many of you hear as "knuckle dragging idiocy" is really the anger and grief associated with mourning the death of a dream that they have held since they were 10 or 12 years old, maybe younger. 
 

There will always be gas powered cars on the market, maybe not new, but the kind you lusted after as a kid will still be available. But getting rid of pile of four and 6 cyl daily drivers and commuters is not a bad thing from a tailpipe emissions standpoint. And even though the NEW car market may shift in some states and countries to all EVs by 2035, there will still be 90% of the car population that is gas for decades to come. Longer than ANY of us will be around for. So yes, the anger and grief is drama llama overreaction fueled by ignorance and resistance to new things.

And after driving some of the latest crop of EVs, fun will not be gone. SHIFTING may be, but if that's all you consider fun, or if it's a major portion of what you consider fun, then stick a shifter and clutch pedal on your easy chair at home and get all the fun of driving without any of that pesky fuel, maintenance, or insurance costs. I love my 6 speed manual MINI Cooper JCW, but I can also have fun in my automatic cars and I'm having a blast driving briskly in my one speed EV. I'm a CAR enthusiast and I don't CARE what powers my metal box on wheels.

Now, autonomous cars are a different matter, and though I think the average driver on the roads today would be well served by not driving themselves, and I'd love to have my car bring me home from the pub safely, I still want the ability to drive myself where and when I want to go. But fully autonomous cars are probably a longer way off than full EV adoption.

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/28/21 12:29 p.m.

In reply to Chris_V :

Pot/kettle and all that stuff. Time for me to move on.

Thanks for the exchange. 

 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
7/28/21 12:29 p.m.
frenchyd said:
93EXCivic said:
MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) said:

At this point I would rather move to an area I can live car free (or mostly car free + a fun car) than depend on a beige appliance no matter it's means of propulsion.

I'd much rather we lobbied and got more transit infrastructure built out so we could actually remove bad drivers and traffic from the road ways rather than just all cram ourselves into EVs. Because tbh, bad drivers and the gigantic modern SUVs and trucks are already significantly impinging on my automotive enjoyment whether they're EV or not.

I totally agree with all of this. I am unconvinced that one that is enough material to build the needed number of electric cars to replace the everyone's car. Two even if there is how much environmental damage will there be in mining all of this.

IMO better mass transit and bicycle infrastructure is a much better solution to the envirnomental isses we fact then building a crap ton of electric cars.

Bicycles may work down South and for the young and fit. But there are a whole lot of us living where snowfall is sometimes measured in feet.  Who likely would suffer heart attacks attempting a daily commute.  Or are forced to carry heavy and or bulky things as part of our daily movement ( think plumbers, carpenters, electricians, and other tradesmen, craftsmen, etc) 

  Then there your hated SUV's.Think of mon's  taking the kids to soccer, football, Hockey, etc.  often with teammates  or other children to dance recitals, art classes, to & from school and school activities.  
  Maybe they have a sideline business of shopping garages and estate sales to recycle items?  
  I personally would use a SUV to tow my race car  and sleep in it when I get there. 
   
Mass transit only works when there are masses going the same direction.  Rural, and suburban often don't fit that criteria. 
  The freedom you enjoy picking where to live and telling others how to live. Applies to all. Some will be left driving older and older ICE's  for financial reasons. Some will choose EV's because they Contain 25% less material  than ICE's and require 25%  less labor to build. 
     The operating cost savings will allow them to put that towards other priorities in their lives. 
     Really the environment  doesn't much care if it's an Iron ore mine,  a bauxite mine,  or a buckle mine.   It does care that internal combustion is emitted by every single ICE in use. Perhaps as many as 5-6 billion in daily use. 
  While some electricity is still generated by coal, oil, and other hydrocarbons.  More and more of it's being generated  by a renewable source.  In addition the modest size of most renewables means less energy is wasted in transmission. 

I am not saying that bicycles or mass transit work in every situation but they work in lots of situations. I don't see why investing more money into those solutions is a bad thing. I am not telling everyone they have to use them. But building better solutions would probably mean more people use them. More people using them means a need for fewer cars.

As far as the mining thing, you obviously have never been to a mine site or a former mine site to see the damage it does.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/28/21 2:00 p.m.
alfadriver said:
tester (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to alfadriver :

I don't think any of those name plates will survive the decade as gas powered automobiles. 
 

I have not seen any realistic path where they are all gone in a decade.  These cars biggest threat isn't EV's by any measure, it's tightening emissions requirements- but I also see that they all have paths to meet them.  The only one that I would honestly question is the Miata- but at the same time, Mazda has put so much into that small part of the market, they will keep doing something.  Even if it's an EV, it will probably very fun to drive.

Then again, I also have not seen the path where EV's take over the majority of the market in a decade.  Could happen, but I just don't see it.

With how expensive cars are against the average income, I suspect the only way for EV's to take over that soon is for manufacturers/dealers to start renting cars vs selling them.

We already see people justifying 84 month loans to buy cars they couldn't otherwise afford, and probably still can't truly afford them with that long of a note. 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
7/29/21 10:22 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

Expensive?   I suppose depending on your income.   If you're excited about a $15/hr minimum wage then yes. But a lot of people earn $100,000/ year or more. That's ignoring the 1%  who's income is in multiples of millions. 
    Then you need to consider at those income levels cars are replaced when owners grow tired of them, not when their useful practical life is over. 
84 month?   Nothing compared to an expected life of 240 months. Put it another way, a 2001 Corvette, or pickup?  In addition. Interest rates are barely above inflation.  No doubt by the time they are paid off they will seem impossibly cheap.  

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/29/21 6:32 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Yes, the average price of a new car is approaching $40k.

The average household income is $65k per year.

To replace all cars with electric, they are going to have to be more attainable, or affordable if you will. And interest rates aren't going to stay this low for much longer. The Feds are going to have to inflate us out of all this spending, and hell it's already happening.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
7/30/21 6:02 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

While I agree with your conclusion, the Fed just announced they intend to continue the zero interest rate for a while yet.  
     $40,000?  Big deal.  Used car prices are at all time highs, in fact more than a few used cars are now selling for more than they originally sold for.  Yeh, buzzaro.  So less trade in and with low interest, $40,000 over a 20 year expected life, transportation is chump change.  
      Low interest on a car loan means as interest rates climb, those who take advantage of the current market will feel pretty good for the next what? 84 months?  

They won't flip the switch and start making all electric next Tuesday. Any well selling ICE  with remain on the market until profit disappears.  There are enough stubborn and restive people in this country that it will probably take 20 years to completely stop selling them. Heck we still almost have 2% still using a clutch pedal. 
 

 

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/30/21 8:27 a.m.
the_machina said:

In reply to dean1484 :

Have you taken a look at the Porsche Taycan? Its from one of the German luxury brands, is a 4 door 4 seat performance luxury car - maybe an electric version of your CLS?

I have not been in one.   The looks are polarizing. That is definitely another option that I think is setting the new bar for the luxury market if what I have read about it is true.  (interior fit and finish and the intangible feeling of quality that some cars have)

Another thing that I have been meaning to bring up is the whole 0-60 times.  Why are so many people fixated on this?  I actually would argue that the vast majority of people are not qualified to be driving a car that can do 0-60 in less than 4 seconds never mind some that are close to the 2-second mark.  

How many people here have honestly driven a car that can do 0-60 in under 4 seconds and have tried it?   I know my wife actually hates it when I get on it in my CLS and it is right at the 4-second mark in terms of performance.  And the reality is 99.9 percent of the time you never use it never mind actually need it.  This is another thing that I think needs to be looked at.  People are fixated on this as if it makes a car good.  It does not make a car good.  When I was younger for some reason it was a performance metric I cared about.  Now I realize it is about the stupidest thing you can base a car purchase on unless all you are going to do is drag race it.  Accelerating at that rate on the street is borderline irresponsible.  And I don't care about the idiot that is doing it it is the general public that it is putting in danger.  Kids stepping off curbs, older people pulling out that have diminished reaction times.  None of them (the public in general) expect a car to get from A to B that quickly combined with a car that is approaching or exceeding the talent level of the driver will result in bad things.

 Dam I am starting to sound like James May. . ..   laugh

 

rslifkin
rslifkin UberDork
7/30/21 8:38 a.m.

In reply to dean1484 :

Live somewhere that has a few highway on ramps with a stop sign at the end.  In those cases, there's no such thing as too much power or too much traction.  A 6 - 7 second 0-60 is "adequate".  9+ seconds is "I'll drive a few miles out of my way to get on somewhere else" kind of slow. 

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