From Innovate's instructions " A 1” bung (provided in the kit) will best protect the sensor. When fully threaded, the sensor’s tip will sit flush with the exhaust pipe, this does not adversely effect the readings "
I will say mines installed just like a normal OEM sensor and hasn't been an issue for me.
I've been running my MTX-L for years. Can't say I've ever had an issue with my voltage dropping below 12V either.
In reply to GPz11 :
Other than the problem that it does change how it reads the gasses- as it will primarily see the boundary flow on that wall, as opposed to the mixed flow in the middle.
Again, if that is how they want their sensors to be used, I would not buy one- as that is clearly not the best way to use them. We have millions and millions of installations that say otherwise. And the rest of the industry does, too.
I've got mine installed just like the millions of other folks too.
Innovate does their heater control a little "differently" than others (hence some of the problems seen by the user base). I think the long bung is a way to mitigate total heat to the sensor and provide them with an "out" if you don't follow their instructions. That being said out of hundreds of Innovate WB I have only seen a few be a total E36 M3 show, most work fine for years and maybe eat a sensor or two over their life.
alfadriver said:In reply to Knurled. :
Thanks for that information- as that means I'll not get an innovate system for my Alfa build. I had suspected that they don't build the highest quality components, anyway.
14Point7 stuff seems to be good technology-wise but if something does go wrong, customer service is a cruel joke. My auto electrician actually said I might've been better off with an Innovate WB02 system for that reason, but between this and Keith's recent comments it seems that there are downsides there too.
So is there a good option for affordable and simple WB02 systems for use with aftermarket ECUs, or do we have to choose between crappy support for decent technology vs. crappy technology that constantly needs support?
Paul_VR6 said:Innovate does their heater control a little "differently" than others (hence some of the problems seen by the user base). I think the long bung is a way to mitigate total heat to the sensor and provide them with an "out" if you don't follow their instructions. That being said out of hundreds of Innovate WB I have only seen a few be a total E36 M3 show, most work fine for years and maybe eat a sensor or two over their life.
I appreciate that they may work. But when the instructions tell you to install them so that they are not optimum, that just tells me something about them... They can always fix what is actually wrong...
So I'm sure I can find a better alternate.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
There are some others, but I don't know how good they are
http://wbo2.com/ I bought one of these a long time ago, and it worked pretty well. Even though it came from down under, I would probably get one of theirs. Edit- looking at their list of obsolete parts, the one I had (and it went with my race car) was one of the 1.0 controllers. Which I probably got back when we were doing a Challenge car. It worked well, and I used it on my GTV, too. They were pretty good with support back then.
I've been running an Innovate MTX-L in a Mazdaspeed Miata for about 7 years now. For the first 2 years, it was simply checking the factory ECU as I played around with increasing boost. For the last five, it's been running closed loop with a Megasquirt. The sensor is in the wideband port provided on the FM MSM downpipe which is just before the cat and on top of the pipe. IIRC, that puts the tip of the sensor somewhat in the exhaust stream. I haven't seen any issues other than the low voltage reset of the controller while cranking mentioned earlier.
For my TR6 project, I used the bung provided with the Innovate LC-1. It does put the sensor tip flush with the pipe. This setup has been working OK on another fuel injected TR6 for over 8 years. Maybe it's luck. Worst case, I'll drop the exhaust and remove 3/16" or so from the bung.
Looks like the Tech Edge 2J9 is their equivalent of the 14point7 Spartan Lambda 2 or the Innovate LC2.
We use AEM sensors at FM. They're pretty solid.
Only trouble is that AEM's equivalent is in the ballpark of 2x the price of the 14point7/Innovate/Tech Edge products, and that's a special sale price:
Although it does have CANbus which is nice.
In reply to JoeTR6 :
I'm sure they work ok.
But I know how they are supposed to be installed and why. And since Innovate tells you to NOT do it that way, for a reason they can fully deal with, I see a reason do not get their product.
Then again, some of the aftermarket tuners are ok with just looking at one cylinder's worth of exhaust, too. Again, I see that as a big problem- while it may be better than a carb, it's far from the correct way of doing EFI.
Some of us are damned by knowing things.
GameboyRMH said:Only trouble is that AEM's equivalent is in the ballpark of 2x the price of the 14point7/Innovate/Tech Edge products, and that's a special sale price:
Although it does have CANbus which is nice.
"They have no customer support"
"Their lifespan and engineering is questionable"
"They cost more than the cheapest options available"
Take your pick, I guess. For something like this, I prefer to buy right and buy once.
FYI, Jeremy at FM has found that the AEM units with the controller integrated into the gauge seem to have a narrower range of AFRs and I think slower response. He much prefers the units with a standalone controller wired straight into the ECU. I don't know if that's the case with the current generation, but it was when the controllers were bulkier and blue :)
If you want a GOOD wideband get a Ballenger AFX500 v2 with the NGK sensor.
If you want an OK wideband the PLX, Zeitronix, AEM with Bosch 4.9 sensor are decent
If you want an OK wideband that will be hard to get any type of tech support for 14point7 is the best
If you want A wideband Innovate will be the cheapest that works
In reply to Paul_VR6 :
So what makes one better than another? (ignoring the innovate, as I already see it's fault).
Funny, when I go search the Ballenger, I see that they also sell the ECM a/f meters. Way back over 20 years ago, I bought over 100 ECM a/f meters... But now, for our car installations, everyone uses a Bosch set up. Neither is what I would use for just a/f control- they were instrumentation UEGO's. (UEGO = Universal Exhaust Gas O2 = WB O2)
But an honest question is which one has the best, just basic, UEGO system? One that the ONLY purpose is to input it into an aftermarket ECU, where the ECU provides the data logging. I'm very much against having an a/f display- as that just distracts you from driving. I have not looked at one driving for quite a while now.
(and NGK v Bosch-- given what I've seen, I'll choose Bosch- they have a more repeatable signal, especially in a NB sensor)
Seems I'm just beating a dead horse at this point, but another vote here that Innovate (I had an LC-2) was hot garbage. Never could get it to work right.
I have since moved to an AEM X-series and it just works. I have the CAN wired into my MegaSquirt directly, so I don't have to do that dance where the controller converts to analog only for the ECU to convert back into digital and hope there are no weird grounding issues. Closed loop fueling is much awesome with a clean WB signal - I can sit at a stoplight for 30 seconds without deviating from 14.7 once. The WB controller is built into the gauge (so maybe not the best for your purpose alfa, but you can always hide it) but at $170 it's not too pricey and does a good job.
If they made the AFR500 with no display I would still use it. I have mine mounted so I can't see them I just use the display on my racepak if I need to look. I use 2x of the old NGK AFX in my race car and have for a long, long time. I have baselined them against calibrated 5 gas analyzers and as long as I do a calibration before use, they come up near perfect (I tend to run some interesting fuels so this is part of my day's startup procedure). I have seen the Bosch sensor equipped WB02 be fairly inaccurate as EGT changes the NGK don't seem to do that. The AFR500v2 seems to have picked up where the original NGK AFX left off. ECM makes the AFR500v2 as well as the original AFX from what I remember.
For a regular car, for basic tuning, gun to my head I would probably buy Zeitronix ZT3 unless I had short arms.
In reply to Paul_VR6 :
Was the Bosch sensor hooked to the AFR500? The controller is supposed to compensate for exhaust temps.... All of the ECM's I bought were with the NGK sensor, but all of the production Bosch sensors I've encountered have not drifted due to temp. So I would want to rule that combo out, too.
I originally bought an Innovate ... something back in December, and when I pulled it out of the package and checked it out, I discovered that a couple of pins were pre-bent, and the connectors would not mate. Based on a lot of the comments I'd already seen (such as in this thread now) suggesting Innovate stuff was ... meh I returned it and ended up getting a 14point7 unit. So that's what I'll be attempting to get working.
I'm surprised with all the widebands going into new cars now that there is not a GRM-style combo that can be pulled from a JY that gives you an OEM-level of reliability with the sensor and controller. It seems like most bury the controller with other functions, so a standalone controller is not to be found. Only one I remember stumbling across was like a '12ish Dodge Ram that used a 4.9 sensor and had what appeared to be a completely separate controller box. Output was CANbus as I recall.
FWIW, I've never been nothing but pleased with the onboard wideband controller that the FAST XFI uses. I have plenty to say about the XFI, not all of it good, but one thing that is good is the wideband setup. Lightyears ahead of anything else I have seen in the aftermarket.
It uses an NTK sensor, IIRC. It can deal with leaded fuel for a while, too.
In reply to Knurled. :
All sensors can deal with leaded fuel, for a while. It's the short while after the catalyst is covered in lead that's the problem....
Paul_VR6 said:If you want a GOOD wideband get a Ballenger AFX500 v2 with the NGK sensor.
If you want an OK wideband the PLX, Zeitronix, AEM with Bosch 4.9 sensor are decent
If you want an OK wideband that will be hard to get any type of tech support for 14point7 is the best
If you want A wideband Innovate will be the cheapest that works
I'll echo this reccommendation for the NGK/NTK AFX wideband controller. Its manufactured by ECM which supplies "wideband" measurement equipment that is used by OEMs as instrumentation during engine dyno and vehicle development (I know FCA uses them in their engine dynos and development vehicles). Granted the AFX is not lab measurement grade, but the fundamental UEGO controls are similar.
If you don't believe me, compare these two:
http://www.ecm-co.com/product.asp?dis1000
https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/103_107/products_id/357/
They have a newer version out which has higher resolution:
https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/3295
Now if you're stepping up to the higher end standalone ECUs, a lot mostly support Bosch LSU 4.9 sensors and output via CAN like this Link example:
In reply to engiekev :
Ford uses ECM, too. Not for cars, but for dynos. For cars, we use Bosch systems (other than some who bought their own).
But considering how we use them in production, it's still quite curious that simple control UEGO systems are so expensive. They have been on virtually every single car in the US since about 2008. Not that I can do anything about it, not being an electronics person.... but I can still whine about it.
In reply to alfadriver :
At least it's made the sensors cheap. Could get replacement 4.2 sensors for $35 at Autozone.
In reply to alfadriver :
No I am comparing apples to pears a bit here, the comparison was AFX with NTK vs an Innovate LC1 or LM1 (forget which) but was 4.2 era we tuned the car with the Innovate then put the AFX in the car and noticed some discrepency. Followed that up with the gas analyzer later on.
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