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itsatrap
itsatrap New Reader
10/22/10 3:27 p.m.

I really wish the EPA would stop making my car get worse fuel mileage with their corn blended crap. I know why there doing it, but I think surely we can find something else out there to blend our petrol with that won't degrade the engines performance, fuel mileage, hoses and seals..

Story link

Platinum90
Platinum90 SuperDork
10/22/10 3:54 p.m.

It doesn't degrade engine performance. Ethanol has higher resistance to detonation.

Most new cars have hoses that can handle it indefinitely, and I don't think 15% ethanol is going to hurt MPG all that much...maybe 1 or 2...

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
10/22/10 4:04 p.m.

It does get worse mileage. It shouldn't degrade engine performance. It does not hurt hoses, seals, etc.

<-- Has been running E85 for 2 years in a 21 year old OE fuel system. Zero fuel problems.

16vCorey
16vCorey SuperDork
10/22/10 4:09 p.m.

IIRC, a lot of the '80s Ford trucks had problems with alcohol messing up the valve that switched between the front tank and the rear tank, but that's the only real ethanol related problem that I can think of.

Derick Freese
Derick Freese HalfDork
10/22/10 4:10 p.m.

My 24 year old Honda says right in the manual that it can run up to 15% ethanol.

I read in another article that E15 has to be served from a separate pump.

xFactor
xFactor New Reader
10/22/10 4:46 p.m.

When they brought e10 here, I was almost a point leaner on my wideband...

I'm overjoyed that they want to shove e15 down our throats.

later, matt

RexSeven
RexSeven Dork
10/22/10 4:58 p.m.

RANT ON:

Big Agriculture and corn subsidies strike again. Not only does corn-based ethanol drive up the price of food corn, it also does not accomplish any environmental goals. In fact, it's worse for the environment. The processing of corn to become ethanol requires a lot of energy, and we aren't reducing oil consumption due to E10's lower fuel efficiency.

I'm not totally against ethanol- Platinum90 mentioned its higher resistance to detonation, and there are other plants and biomass materials that can be made into ethanol - it's just that I'm against companies like ADM pushing corn-based ethanol blends to boost their profits. As long as Iowa remains an important election state, we'll never see a reduction in government corn subsidies or Big Ag's lobbying.

RANT OFF.

itsatrap
itsatrap New Reader
10/22/10 5:41 p.m.

On the point of ethanol reducing detonation. My understanding is this, it reduces detonation because it takes more effort to burn. This is what also causes it to have less energy released when burned, making you burn more of it to make the same amount of energy as straight petrol, reducing mileage. The inefficient burn also reduces power in an engine setup to burn the more efficient gas. I could see you being able to increase the compression ratio or advance the timing more due to the reduced detonation factor to make the same HP as petrol only.

So please correct me if I am wrong, this is just my understanding of the blending.

xFactor
xFactor New Reader
10/22/10 6:01 p.m.

Well, I haven't noticed any detonation difference between e10 and old fashioned 93 pump gas, but e85 is like running pure alky, where you crank the boost and timing. But you need a monster fuel system, like 1600cc injectors for a 2.0L engine and all that supporting stuff.

Alky does burns cooler and slower, kinda like the way high octane Q15 race fuel does...but way cheaper.

later, matt

FlightService
FlightService Reader
10/22/10 7:25 p.m.

Ethanol has less energy density than gasoline, but it does have a higher resistance to detonation than gas.

Think of diesel. It also has both of those properties.

Think of ethanol as holding an ounce of C4 in your hand. Think of gas as holding an ounce of dynamite. Both bang, gas does it just a little bigger, but the ethanol is a little harder to detonate.

The reaction is what causes the difference in energy density, not the resistance to burn. A properly tuned E15 or E85 will produce more power but will use alot more fuel.

I have also never heard of a problem with the alcohol causing a fuel system issue in a car. Given alcohol is one of the additives used to gas in the Winter to keep water out.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
10/22/10 7:34 p.m.

I've had problems with the 10% ethanol stuff in my bike. OEM fuel lines turn to goo. The bike is a 1986. I have since replaced all the fuel and oil lines, mostly with Russell stainless braided, and I don't have any more problems.

Shaun
Shaun Reader
10/22/10 8:26 p.m.
FlightService wrote: Ethanol has less energy density than gasoline, but it does have a higher resistance to detonation than gas. Think of diesel. It also has both of those properties.

Diesel has higher energy density than gasoline.

FlightService
FlightService Reader
10/22/10 8:30 p.m.
Shaun wrote:
FlightService wrote: Ethanol has less energy density than gasoline, but it does have a higher resistance to detonation than gas. Think of diesel. It also has both of those properties.
Diesel has higher energy density than gasoline.

Yes that was my point, we're on the same page, didn't come out right.

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
10/22/10 9:32 p.m.
itsatrap wrote: I really wish the EPA would stop making my car get worse fuel mileage with their corn blended crap. I know why there doing it, but I think surely we can find something else out there to blend our petrol with that won't degrade the engines performance, fuel mileage, hoses and seals.. Story link

Do you REALLY know why they did it?

They did it ONLY because Congress told them to. Think corn states who want more subsidies (and check which side of the isle they stand on, too- of Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa- that's 6 R's and 2 D's in the Senate).

Nobody who was involved at the EPA wanted to be, they all know that it's a bad idea, and a bad rule. More importantly, they also know that it's not sustainable with our farm lands. AND, as a bonus, they also know that there's an emissions degridation with E15.

But you won't hear any more reports of that.

Shaun
Shaun Reader
10/22/10 10:11 p.m.

At the risk of stating the obvious, the presidential elections kick off in Iowa with the whole stupidly important "Iowa Caucuses". Follow the power. Follow the money. whatever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_caucuses

Vigo
Vigo HalfDork
10/22/10 10:14 p.m.
Big Agriculture and corn subsidies strike again. Not only does corn-based ethanol drive up the price of food corn, it also does not accomplish any environmental goals. In fact, it's worse for the environment. The processing of corn to become ethanol requires a lot of energy, and we aren't reducing oil consumption

W00t, thank you!!

The ONLY thing corn-ethanol blends are good for in my opinion is boosted cars..

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 HalfDork
10/23/10 7:24 a.m.
alfadriver wrote:
itsatrap wrote: I really wish the EPA would stop making my car get worse fuel mileage with their corn blended crap. I know why there doing it, but I think surely we can find something else out there to blend our petrol with that won't degrade the engines performance, fuel mileage, hoses and seals.. Story link
Do you *REALLY* know why they did it? They did it ONLY because Congress told them to. Think corn states who want more subsidies (and check which side of the isle they stand on, too- of Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa- that's 6 R's and 2 D's in the Senate). Nobody who was involved at the EPA wanted to be, they all know that it's a bad idea, and a bad rule. More importantly, they also know that it's not sustainable with our farm lands. AND, as a bonus, they also know that there's an emissions degridation with E15. But you won't hear any more reports of that.

And I didn't think we'd ever find anything to agree on. There is no science that supports the virtue of ethanol in motor fuel. The resulting decrease in mpg means that gasoline retailers sell more product. Cha-ching! And of course the grain producers sell more product and drive up prices. Cha-ching! Cha-ching!

Rad_Capz
Rad_Capz Reader
10/23/10 10:15 a.m.

You'll find a list of ethanol free stations here http://pure-gas.org/

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
10/23/10 10:25 a.m.
xFactor wrote: Well, I haven't noticed any detonation difference between e10 and old fashioned 93 pump gas, but e85 is like running pure alky, where you crank the boost and timing. But you need a monster fuel system, like 1600cc injectors for a 2.0L engine and all that supporting stuff. Alky does burns cooler and slower, kinda like the way high octane Q15 race fuel does...but way cheaper. later, matt

Hello Mrs. Information. I'm running 450cc injectors on my 12:1, 10psi , 1.6L. They are nowhere near maxed out.

neon4891
neon4891 SuperDork
10/23/10 10:53 a.m.
Rad_Capz wrote: You'll find a list of ethanol free stations here http://pure-gas.org/

Next time I'm out in elmira...

novaderrik
novaderrik Reader
10/23/10 11:05 a.m.

ethanol in gas isn't the end of the world.. build the engine for it and tune for it, and it is a gearhead's best friend.

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 HalfDork
10/23/10 12:20 p.m.

Gearhead or not, if you burn as much gasoline as we do in getting to and from work, etc. you really don't want to buy any more than you have to.

Knurled
Knurled HalfDork
10/23/10 12:22 p.m.

I suspect that the real reason for the increasing use of ethanol is as an octane booster to make up for the more and more crummy fuel.

Has anyone else noticed that gasoline smells really strange compared to 10-20 years ago? It's not sharp anymore. It's more like foul kerosene.

JoeyM
JoeyM Dork
10/23/10 12:56 p.m.

I can't say that I've noticed a difference in the smell around a pump, but I can definitely smell a difference in the exhaust of leaded and unleaded gas[+]. Perhaps part of the difference you are detecting is the absence of lead in modern pump gasoline.


[+] - I know someone who adds tetra-ethyl lead - as a gas treatment - to their old muscle car. They claim that, since it was designed for leaded gasoline, running it without lead can damage the seats for the exhaust valves. The exhaust definitely smells different than other cars.

erohslc
erohslc Reader
10/23/10 1:30 p.m.

In reply to 1988RedT2: And of course, they also collect taxes ....(wait for it) by the gallon! Cha-ching!

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