thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter)
thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
1/23/21 2:06 p.m.

I'm watching the Rally Monte Carlo right now and the announced that this is the last year for pure gasoline power. I had no idea. Should be cool to see how they make the batteries happy on a rally course. 

MrChaos
MrChaos UltraDork
1/23/21 2:19 p.m.

i mean most race series are going hybrid at this point.

Vigo (Forum Supporter)
Vigo (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/23/21 7:12 p.m.

So this article suggests the new rules are targeted to bringing down overall costs, BUT that the hybrid powertrain was something the teams actually requested. Interesting.

MrChaos
MrChaos UltraDork
1/24/21 8:20 a.m.

DF: What are the specific requirements of the hybrid system in terms of performance and use?

YM: The hybrid system, as you know, will be controlled by the FIA for the first three years. It will include the use hybrid in the stages – this will be the case from the start of 2022. How we do this? We are working on that now, the teams made the request to use [hybrid] in the stages.

It will be available in some precise moments, it’s not finalized yet, but we’re looking at some ‘speed zones’ or something like this. We have to be careful where we allow this extra power to be used. In terms of driving on the road [sections] we want the cars to go through towns and cities; we’re looking at around 10 or 12 kilometres for this.

interesting

CatDaddy
CatDaddy New Reader
1/25/21 5:16 p.m.

Sometimes I feel like the only person who wants to see a revival of a new very cheap basic car with no options or assists and these types of articles cement it. 
 

though I do love the hybrids at LeMans, hitting a jump with a giant lithium battery in the car seems very dangerous 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/25/21 6:10 p.m.

Problem with the very cheap basic car with no options or assists is that nobody actually buys them.

Seems to me that hitting a jump with a giant (although it's not necessarily giant in a hybrid) lithium battery in a car is the perfect way to test them for whackjob street use.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
1/25/21 6:17 p.m.

Interesting that this may be effectively mandated by the pending laws in many city centers that internal combustion engines are banned. Rally cars have to be driven on roads, in traffic, when transiting.  (There was a bit of a funny moment at one year's Rally Japan, where they highlighted the drivers' having to carry money with them to pay tolls along the route)

 

I don't see why the hybrid motors' useage on stage should be limited to certain areas.  This isn't circuit racing where passing is part of the game.  I say let them use it however they want.  Maybe they can use it instead of antilag to pull out of corners, resulting in less fuel usage and less thermal stress.

MrChaos
MrChaos UltraDork
1/25/21 6:21 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Interesting that this may be effectively mandated by the pending laws in many city centers that internal combustion engines are banned. Rally cars have to be driven on roads, in traffic, when transiting.

 

I don't see why the hybrid motors' useage on stage should be limited to certain areas.  This isn't circuit racing where passing is part of the game.  I say let them use it however they want.  Maybe they can use it instead of antilag to pull out of corners, resulting in less fuel usage and less thermal stress.

I think on stage they are going to have it set up like F1's KERS system. and they dont want them flying off the side of a cliff if they use it at the wrong time.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/25/21 6:24 p.m.
MrChaos said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Interesting that this may be effectively mandated by the pending laws in many city centers that internal combustion engines are banned. Rally cars have to be driven on roads, in traffic, when transiting.

 

I don't see why the hybrid motors' useage on stage should be limited to certain areas.  This isn't circuit racing where passing is part of the game.  I say let them use it however they want.  Maybe they can use it instead of antilag to pull out of corners, resulting in less fuel usage and less thermal stress.

I think on stage they are going to have it set up like F1's KERS system. and they dont want them flying off the side of a cliff if they use it at the wrong time.

That's why there are drivers in the cars. Give them the tools, let them use the tools. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
1/25/21 6:25 p.m.

In reply to MrChaos :

Which makes no sense?  F1 has a push to pass system because they have to think about passing traffic, and they drive the same corners and straights over and over again, so they can plan an attack.

These should be treated as HYBRID systems, where motor control is integrated with engine control.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/25/21 6:34 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Could be that the FIA does not want to increase the performance too much.  So learn about how a rally car can use the system, then tweak the engine to keep performance at a nominal level, and then unleash it.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
1/25/21 6:54 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver (Forum Supporter) :

They are already limiting boost (21psi, IIRC, or 2.5 bar absolute) and they just increased the restrictor size to 36mm, and are allowing some other previously banned technologies.

I can see (would like to see, in a "motorsports improves road cars" kind of way) restricting motor torque to an inverse function of boost.  The hard part, and on reflection the probable reason for the silly "speed zone" idea, is policing it.

 

'Course, I also used to say that if they were interested in making more of a spectacle, they'd limit suspension travel to 200mm or so, and ban external reservoir dampers, so they weren't boring slot cars even on gravel.

MrChaos
MrChaos UltraDork
1/25/21 8:33 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

i think the FIA is being overly cautious with it at the start. i imagine it will change.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/26/21 6:16 a.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

And that's why I think they limits on how the hybrid system is used seems to appear to me.

Long term, the hybrid system could mostly replace the turbo, if left unlimited.  But the only way that will happen is if they really understand how it can be used in a rally environment.

One thing that will be interesting- when the cars are sliding sideways, there's no energy harvesting....  Very much unlike using braking to slow a car.  So will the hybrid system change how cars are drive so that they can harvest and use more energy?

Colin Wood
Colin Wood Associate Editor
1/26/21 8:24 a.m.

Before the GRC folded a few years ago, I was excited to hear that there were plans to run a full-on electric class. So color me interested with hybrid rally cars—especially since it was the teams that were asking for them.

Who knows what kind of wild road-going cars the world may get now.

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/26/21 9:04 a.m.
Colin Wood said:

Before the GRC folded a few years ago, I was excited to hear that there were plans to run a full-on electric class.

If they go full-electric at some point, I fear they'll have to add some type of audible alert device. Otherwise they might end up with rally fans splattered all over the car like dead bugs. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/26/21 9:37 a.m.

You say that like rally fans get out of the way for roaring ICE cars.

Extreme E is full electric off-road racing. Pretend it's the Safari rally :)

STM317
STM317 UberDork
1/26/21 9:38 a.m.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

One thing that will be interesting- when the cars are sliding sideways, there's no energy harvesting....  Very much unlike using braking to slow a car.  So will the hybrid system change how cars are drive so that they can harvest and use more energy?

Is ther clarification about what type of hybrid system will be allowed? A KERS sytem seems like it might make some sense for reasons like this

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
1/26/21 3:57 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver (Forum Supporter) :

Definitely an interesting angle.  On tarmac it would make little difference, and the faster gravel drivers in the past period of time have a decidedly non-slidey driving style.  Which is largely because the cars do not reward it like they did in the days of no suspension travel and dampers about as sophisticated as a screen door return.

 

I use Colin McRae as an example...  He was fast in the old barely-more-than-Group A spec Subarus, and he was moderately fast in the first generation Focus.  But when he got a ride in a later generation car (Xsara?) with wild suspension travel, he was off the pace, because the newer cars do not reward being manhandled.

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