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gamby
gamby UltimaDork
2/19/15 11:42 p.m.

The head of exercise science at the school where I teach (Dr. Wayne Westcott) is pretty much a legend/guru in the field of strength training and fitness. Google him and you'll see.

He recently mentioned to me that men over 50 need a 20g serving of protein for it to even be effective. The smaller amounts won't do much.

The conventional wisdom among bodybuilders/powerlifters is 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight. Then other conventional wisdom says you can go much less. I do 80-100g a day--the only macro I count. I try to avoid bread/white flour as much as possible.

The problem with fitness advice, especially on the internet, is that everyone knows a method and everyone thinks every other method is wrong. Finding the truth is difficult.

gamby
gamby UltimaDork
2/19/15 11:55 p.m.

I'll also add--the cardio is what keeps your doctor happy. I'm a fairly avid cyclist (3500 miles last year) and a hack runner (200 miles last year) who does pushups and kettlebell swings (in a 40 minute jumprope circuit) and chin-ups, as well as Nautilus machine circuits at school (although not this semester). I tend to do strength one day and cardio the other, but I'll sometimes do pushups pre-run. I'm 42 and my doc loves me because of the cardio conditioning, but is very happy with my muscle mass.

I'm 42 and this was me at 178 (5'11") over the summer (I'm ~185 now at winter trapped-inside-because-of-snow weight)

Muscle mass and cardio can co-exist to a fair extent. The guys who are huge and in cardio shape are playing in the NFL, though. That's the whole "you can't serve two masters" thing--cardio or strength/muscle mass: pick one.

Klayfish
Klayfish UltraDork
2/20/15 6:42 a.m.
gamby wrote: He recently mentioned to me that men over 50 need a 20g serving of protein for it to even be effective. The smaller amounts won't do much. The conventional wisdom among bodybuilders/powerlifters is 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight. Then other conventional wisdom says you can go much less. I do 80-100g a day--the only macro I count. I try to avoid bread/white flour as much as possible. The problem with fitness advice, especially on the internet, is that everyone knows a method and everyone thinks every other method is wrong. Finding the truth is difficult.

This. I used to track all my macros, but since my nutrition is down to a routine, I don't anymore. But on workout days, I get something like 250g of protein per day, and I weigh 170lbs. On non-workout days, it may be closer to 125.

There are a ton of different methods out there. Some of it is broscience, but there is also no one "right" answer. I'd bet if you went to a bodybuilding contest, or crossfit, and asked all the athletes you'd get many different answers.

aussiesmg
aussiesmg MegaDork
2/20/15 9:28 a.m.

OK, detail question, is wheat/multi grain bread considered white?

gamby
gamby UltimaDork
2/20/15 10:35 a.m.

In reply to aussiesmg:

No. Nutritionally, whole wheat/multigrain is way better. If I want to get fat, all I need to is raise my white flour intake and bingo.

(Not to sound like the Most Interesting Man In The World) I don't eat a lot of bread, but when I do, it's Ezekiel Bread. This is a super-expensive ($5.29-$6.29 a loaf) no preservatives, super low sodium, no sugar sprouted grain bread. It's usually in the frozen health food section of the market, because it has no shelf-life unfrozen. Toast it lightly and it's actually tasty, if you're used to hearty multigrain breads. I learned about it from an interview with Mike Dolce, a bigtime MMA dietician.

So there's bread.

I'm also a big fan of Chobani Flips at the moment. I have trouble with the "tang" of Greek yogurt, but a lot of the Flip flavors are very palatable to me. 13g of protein a shot.

golfduke
golfduke Reader
2/20/15 12:37 p.m.

There are about a million ways to skin a cat, and about 2 million ways to answer this question. I'm an NASM/ACSM personal trainer and coach. I've personally lost 75+ lb and am now what I'd define as 'fit'. I start with every client, regardless of their goals-

  • Take a high quality fish oil daily.
  • Avoid processed foods as much as possible. think the 'U' of the grocery store- fruits/veg/nuts/seeds/meats/dairy (if you can tolerate it after doing an auto-immunity test yourself). Organic, local, and pastured if at all possible.
  • Worry about quality, not quantity at first.

That sets up the meal plan. Eat as much of that as you can handle if you wish... Go for broke! Now, more goal oriented... you want to add muscle. Well, you're 59, so your natural testosterone production will put you at a disadvantage. That's just life... but it's not impossible. In my very humble, individual, and with all respect to others who have differing opinions and get upset about others throwing their $0.02 in... the quickest and most effective way to gaining lean muscle mass without getting fat at the same time is as follows-

  • Eat lots of good quality organic meats and fats... Good fats (EVOO, avocado, nuts, coconut fats) are worth their weight in gold to someone trying to put on muscle. It's very ironic- eat fat to gain muscle. It works though.
  • Bias your gym routine to high weight (70%+ of your single rep maxes) functional movements- squats, deadlifts, presses, more squats, even more squats.
  • Keep your cardio short and intense. Tabata type stuff. Several rounds of 1on, 2 off type stuff, varying your work:rest ratios. It's now fact- sustained aerobic activity over 15 minutes in duration absolutely involves energy consumption in the form of muscle as well as fat. There's no way around it.
  • Be patient. You aren't going to gain 10# of muscle in 2 months without anabolic agents or eating 3 pizzas a day... Stick to a routine and listen to your body, because what works for me might not work for you. It's important to get a baseline and personally tweak it to your morphology. That's why a good personal trainer/coach is an amazing asset- they have the ability to put you on a program, and then tune it to your personal needs, preferences, and bodily reactions.
Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy GRM+ Memberand UberDork
2/20/15 1:08 p.m.

I was told of a exercise called "manmakers" recently. I plan to dig out my dumbells and do these if I can't get to the gym.

Hasbro
Hasbro SuperDork
2/20/15 1:29 p.m.
  • I'm eating lots of oils in raw nuts and seeds, almond butter, flax seed oil, avacados, olive oil, coconut oil, tahini, etc.. No fish oil yet but will soon. I eat a lot buckwheat, Ezekial sprouted tortillas, and 7 grain sprouted bread, etc.. A ton of raw or gently cooked veggies.

  • I'll be off meats for several more weeks.

  • No processed foods at all.

  • Supplements for now are a multi, multi B, enzymes, amino acids, and anti fungal/yeast/mycotoxin stuff, etc..

  • I think I have nutrition pretty well covered but more suggestions are welcome.

I'd like to just lift gently for a week or so to wake up the muscles and connective tissue. I like the 70% of max, though.

Ok on the cardio being short and intense and will check out Tabata. I've been cycling 1 to 3 hours at a time so that'll stop for now.

Can you suggest a schedule? As mentioned, it doesn't have to be weekly, whatever is best.

Thanks, GolfDuke, and everyone else. All of you have really helped me get motivated. Off to the gym.

mtn
mtn MegaDork
2/20/15 1:50 p.m.
gamby wrote: I learned about it from an interview with Mike Dolce, a bigtime MMA Nutritionist.

FTFY. He has no accrediation, therefore he is merely a nutritionist. A Dietitian requires a degree, rigorous internship, passing of an exam, and continuing education. Now, that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about, but he is not an RD.

/Soapbox

golfduke
golfduke Reader
2/20/15 2:05 p.m.

Welp, there are a few programs out there that work really well, but personally I've found the below modified Wendler Cycle to be easiest to follow due to repetition. It's meant to be a long-term lifting cycle,, and I've gone as many as 8 cycles without breaks... It definitely works if you stick to it. First and foremost however, I would highly suggest having someone look at your lifting form before jumping in. A goPro and youtube are helpful from the side profile, that way I could critque any mobility issues I'd be concerned with, but someone local can do this well too.

Here's how I typically break it down-

  • Take 1-2 weeks to get a general feeling for the movements- work through the back squat, front squat, deadlift, strict press, and push press with a PVC pipe. Watch tutorials, talk to a local trainer, etc. Get proficient with doing these movements PROPERLY. A E36 M3ty squat is going to injure you, not add muscle. Get it right with no weight first.
    The program comes out like this- you can do mild additional accessory work if you'd like on top, but the big lifts should be the primary focus. You are either off completely tues/thurs or pick one. You need 2 complete rest days in order to properly recover in a given week. Perform some high intensity interval work on your non-lifting days. Mix it up, but you really are trying to get into that 90% heart rate threshold for several short intervals. HIIT, Tabata, EMOM, all are good with this... research and use what you have at your disposal.

  • Wendler minus 1- week- Squat monday, press wednesday, deadlift Friday.

this is the week to find a rough starting point. Find a weight for each exercise where 1 rep is moderate and 2 reps are doable but challenging. Use that weight as your theoretical max, aka training max. Write it down. Keeping a log is the single best way to gain muscle in the gym. How can you chart progress without knowing what you did and are doing.

Week 1 Wendler- - 5x65% of training max - 5x75% - 5+ x85%- do as many reps as you can leaving 1 or 2 reps in the tank. NOT to total failure.

Week 2- - 3x70% - 3x80% - 3+ x90% Same as above

Week 3- - 5x75% - 3x85% - 1+ x95% same as above.

Week 4- deload- - 5x40% - 5x50% - 5x60% NO EXTRA REPS

Week 5- Restart week 1, but- Add 20# to your deadlift, 10# to your back squat, and 5# to your strict press training maxes if you got through the cycle without missing any reps. Stay at the same training max and repeat if you did.

I personally like to re-test my single rep maxes every 3 cycles, right after the deload week. You should see noticeable strength gains after this. Again, add in as much high intensity, short duration cardio as you want to be happy, as well as muscle isolation ecxercises if you feel lazy that you're only lifting something like 9 reps a day. That's fine. Just make sure you're getting 2 full 'do nothing' rest days per week.

Feel free to ask any questions.

gamby
gamby UltimaDork
2/20/15 4:46 p.m.
mtn wrote:
gamby wrote: I learned about it from an interview with Mike Dolce, a bigtime MMA Nutritionist.
FTFY. He has no accrediation, therefore he is merely a nutritionist. A Dietitian requires a degree, rigorous internship, passing of an exam, and continuing education. Now, that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about, but he is not an RD. /Soapbox

Sorry--unknowingly used the term loosely

bgkast
bgkast GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
2/20/15 4:47 p.m.

I suggest eating a 10 lb steak.

patgizz
patgizz PowerDork
2/20/15 8:19 p.m.
bgkast wrote: I suggest eating a 10 lb steak.

i suggest doing whatever alex rodriguez did.

Billy_Bottle_Caps
Billy_Bottle_Caps Dork
2/21/15 9:11 a.m.
patgizz wrote:
bgkast wrote: I suggest eating a 10 lb steak.
i suggest doing whatever alex rodriguez did.

I don't think that is a good idea long term....

btabacchi
btabacchi Reader
2/21/15 9:54 a.m.

Good info here. Following.

Hasbro
Hasbro SuperDork
2/21/15 11:45 a.m.

iadr, thanks for the input. Cleanse is an abused word that covers many definitions and can therefore be misunderstood. For instance, if you eat 8 hours a day, the body will naturally cleanse itself during the 16 hours. The cleanse I did was an extremely high nutrition one week endeavor that helped to flush the body of stuff that shouldn't be there. I won't say it was pleasant but the results are palpable. I try to stay away from extreme nutrition philosophies that seem to be supported by dogmatic "experts". So, take my definition of the term cleanse lightly.

Spent a couple of hours watching lifting videos last night. I wasn't looking forward to them but found them very informative. There's a lot to this stuff.

golfduke
golfduke Reader
2/23/15 9:35 a.m.

While I do agree with some points that you are making, given the thread title 'I want to add 10# of muscle', his age- 59, and his opening post, there is no way to reach his goal without going to the gym and doing some form of weight training. No amount of OTC testosterone derivatives or dietary changes will get him there alone. If he does get diagnosed with Low testosterone, and gets a medical prescription, different story. But my guess is that he's still producing exactly what a 59 year old male should be producing...

He does bring up a great point about sleep, and I'll go further into that- stress (aka cortisol management). Get a standardized schedule and try like hell for 8 hours of blacked out room, silent sleep. It will improve every single facet of your life- physically, mentally, and all in between. It is a hugely overlooked component in Western lifestyles. Meditation is also a valuable tool in eliminating stress and cortisol levels before bed. some people dislike it or connotate it to weirdos chanting and crap, but really all mediation is is pattern breathing and letting your mind wander into subconscious thoughts. That's it, that's all.

Hasbro
Hasbro SuperDork
2/24/15 2:25 p.m.
golfduke wrote: Welp, there are a few programs out there that work really well, but personally I've found the below modified Wendler Cycle to be easiest to follow due to repetition. It's meant to be a long-term lifting cycle,, and I've gone as many as 8 cycles without breaks... It definitely works if you stick to it. First and foremost however, I would highly suggest having someone look at your lifting form before jumping in. A goPro and youtube are helpful from the side profile, that way I could critque any mobility issues I'd be concerned with, but someone local can do this well too. Here's how I typically break it down- - Take 1-2 weeks to get a general feeling for the movements- work through the back squat, front squat, deadlift, strict press, and push press with a PVC pipe. Watch tutorials, talk to a local trainer, etc. Get proficient with doing these movements PROPERLY. A E36 M3ty squat is going to injure you, not add muscle. Get it right with no weight first. The program comes out like this- you can do mild additional accessory work if you'd like on top, but the big lifts should be the primary focus. You are either off completely tues/thurs or pick one. You need 2 complete rest days in order to properly recover in a given week. Perform some high intensity interval work on your non-lifting days. Mix it up, but you really are trying to get into that 90% heart rate threshold for several short intervals. HIIT, Tabata, EMOM, all are good with this... research and use what you have at your disposal. - Wendler minus 1- week- Squat monday, press wednesday, deadlift Friday. this is the week to find a rough starting point. Find a weight for each exercise where 1 rep is moderate and 2 reps are doable but challenging. Use that weight as your theoretical max, aka training max. Write it down. Keeping a log is the single best way to gain muscle in the gym. How can you chart progress without knowing what you did and are doing. Week 1 Wendler- - 5x65% of training max - 5x75% - 5+ x85%- do as many reps as you can leaving 1 or 2 reps in the tank. NOT to total failure. Week 2- - 3x70% - 3x80% - 3+ x90% Same as above Week 3- - 5x75% - 3x85% - 1+ x95% same as above. Week 4- deload- - 5x40% - 5x50% - 5x60% NO EXTRA REPS Week 5- Restart week 1, but- Add 20# to your deadlift, 10# to your back squat, and 5# to your strict press training maxes if you got through the cycle without missing any reps. Stay at the same training max and repeat if you did. I personally like to re-test my single rep maxes every 3 cycles, right after the deload week. You should see noticeable strength gains after this. Again, add in as much high intensity, short duration cardio as you want to be happy, as well as muscle isolation ecxercises if you feel lazy that you're only lifting something like 9 reps a day. That's fine. Just make sure you're getting 2 full 'do nothing' rest days per week. Feel free to ask any questions.

Ok, golfduke, I'm ready to start lightly with the Wendler approach. I only have machines and dumbbells. Are dumbbells ok? I've been using Muscleandstrength.com for Wendler guidance and videos. Nice site.

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/hardcore-look-at-jim-wendlers-5-3-1-powerlifting-system.html

Edit: I like this also; http://stronglifts.com/5x5/

This is fun, thanks for you guidance.

Osterkraut
Osterkraut UberDork
2/24/15 5:34 p.m.
Hasbro wrote: Ok, golfduke, I'm ready to start lightly with the Wendler approach. I only have machines and dumbbells. Are dumbbells ok? I've been using Muscleandstrength.com for Wendler guidance and videos. Nice site. http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/hardcore-look-at-jim-wendlers-5-3-1-powerlifting-system.html What about pace? How much rest between each group? Can a Tapata type pace be implemented? Sunday I tried upper work on the machines and legs Monday using Tapata and liked it, although I suppose a whole body each time would be better. And an off day in between. This is fun, thanks for you guidance.

Spend the $20 or so for Wendler's 5/3/1 book... All your questions will be answered. You're going to want barbells due to the linear progressive nature of the training, time to find a gym!

After you read the book, go download this tracker: 5/3/1 v3.0F. Plug in your starting weights, do what it tells you to do. Basically strength training on autopilot.

Too much tabata'ing (or HIIT or whatever trendy name it's going by these days) and you might start sabatoging your primary goal (lean muscle mass).

There's a bunch of good programs out there (Starting Strength, 5x5, etc). Pick one, stick with it, and eat enough chicken breasts to cause a shortage in your local area.

Oh and at your age if you've got the coin Testosterone Replacement Therapy is a legitimate thing. Look into it.

Hasbro
Hasbro SuperDork
2/24/15 6:54 p.m.

In reply to Osterkraut:

I'm on a very small island and will be leaving in 2-4 months so will use the facility's equipment until moving. The fitness center is 2 minutes down the road by bike. I'll get the book if I continue this endeavor using his methodologies. I like Stronglift's 5x5. Thanks.

http://stronglifts.com/5x5/

golfduke
golfduke Reader
2/25/15 12:49 p.m.

Wendler's book is a valuable purchase for sure. Agree about too much aerobic training diminishing your strength goals as well. But honestly, a barbell and some weights are going to be pretty crucial in meeting your needs. Dumbbells will get you started, but you'll really need to find access to a barbell to start using the above programs to their desired effect.

Good luck!

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
2/25/15 12:59 p.m.

The "too much cardio" thing is good advice for a younger guy, but older dudes need balance. Cardio keeps the heart healthy and the cholesterol numbers down. Doctors like it and when you go hardcore lifting at a certain age, you'll spike cholesterol numbers and send yourself to pill city.

Just one guys experience. I had to start adding in lots of cardio due to cholesterol numbers spiking and I'm not even 40 yet.

I'd also love to get back to deadlifting, but I pulled something in my back a bit ago and I'm slowly rehabbing in.. It's been months now, but I'm not going to injure myself again like that. both the regular doc and chiro say it's no massive cause for alarm, but I'll probably have to lay off the heavy back exercises for another 5-6 months. Damn tight hamstrings.. causing so much havoc.

Here's another point to my older brethen.. Stretch, mobility.. STRETCH.... take the time to recover.. STRETCH..

calteg
calteg HalfDork
2/25/15 1:25 p.m.

@ OP:

Get your testosterone checked at your age. Get a checkup and see if you have any underlying issues prior to working out. Not to E36 M3 in your cheerios, but at your age avoiding injury should be prioritized over working out "hard."

Eat clean, don't drink your calories, avoid white bread as much as possible.

Initially, stick to functional movements that recruit large muscle groups: deadlifts, squats, pull ups, etc.

Drink a lot of water, eat a lot of protein (at least 1g per pound of body weight) and get a lot of sleep.

It's easy to get caught up in the symphony of nutrition advice and the millions of workout plans. What tends to get skipped is the fact that working out does not build muscle; recovering after a workout builds muscle. Adding lean mass requires a LOT of food and a lot of time spent shopping\preparing said food.

Apexcarver wrote: Watching this as I could really stand to put on 10lbs of muscle. (currently 6'2" and 147 at 29) Been looking at doing rock climbing to get strength in. (usually I tend towards biking or swimming) What says those more in the know? Is rock climbing a good sub for someone who hates lifting weights?

short answer: no

long answer: I've climbed and taught climbing technique for several years. I could write for a very, very long time on this subject, but I won't.

Especially for a beginner, your deficiencies will be almost entirely related to technique, specifically lack of proper footwork. Most gains you see will be due to increases in footwork precision, climbing schema, forearm endurance, and cardiovascular endurance, in that order.

Progressing to mid range climbing (5.10, 5.11) will necessitate gains in core and upper back strength, though again, increased footwork precision is key. If you're solely reliant on climbing as your workout at this point, imbalances will begin to develop, specifically the "pull" muscles of your back will likely outstrip the "push" muscles. Look at photos of the prototypical rock climber; long, lanky, well defined back, small pecs, almost nonexistent legs.

5.12 is the upper bound of what the average climber can achieve. Beyond that requires genetic gifts, specifically the insertions points of tendons in your forearms.

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