In reply to Indy - Guy :
not to mention the longer you stay somewhere, the more you learn about the operation. That's valuable in and of itself. There's some people at my company that we'd be screwed if they quit, simply because they've been here forever and have seen every weird thing that can happen during a project, and that knowledge can save us weeks of messing around trying to troubleshoot.
Looks to me like inflation is not a horrible hit, until the last couple years:
If we could skip the last couple years, it seems like most of us are doing ok.
1991 entered job market with BS in Mechanical Engineering. Fed job, started as GS-5 Engineer (because <3.0 GPA) on accelerated Leadership Development advancement plan. i'll speak in terms of "x", my starting salary fresh out of school
year -- annual salary
1991 -- x
1993 -- 1.63x, late 1993 i left GS work, joined auto industry as a lateral move. same company 94-08, so i'll only post what i can recall:
1994 -- 1.91x: hey, pretty sweet, almost doubled in only 3 years. just need a few more of those. LOL.
2000 -- 3.18x plus $24k bonus because customer berkeleyed up and caused a recall, so we got to sell them service parts for every affected vehicle at a juicy markup because individually packaged vs pallets to an assembly plant
2008 -- 3.50x; so first 2x took 3 years. here we are 14 years later and not at 4x yet.
laid off in 2008, 4 months salary and healthcare, so was never hungry. took a job in SC and visited home every other weekend for 1 year to keep lights on
2009 -- 4.00x, so the first double took 3 years, and the second double took 15 years.
2010 -- 3.18x, took a big pay cut to get back to living with my wife and kids. jumped companies in 2011
2011 -- 4.27x, jumped companies mid-2012
2012 -- 4.77x, got a "needs improvement", jumped companies mid-year
2013 -- 5.00x
2014 no bump
2015 -- 5.09x, jumped companies mid-year
2016 -- 5.36x
2017 -- no bump, +$5k bonus for launching a big program, jumped companies, to a Chinese EV startup
2018 -- 6.59x
2019 -- no bump
2020 -- 5.91x, Chinese company went tits-up, jumped companies pretty quickly but for a pay cut, only stayed at new place 7 months, jumped companies to current gig at Lordstown Motors
2021 -- 6.59k
2022 -- 6.91x
2023 -- no bump, LMC filed CH 11 bankruptcy, i got a layoff notice effective Nov 10 2023
so, with a legit degree that you can make money with, my salary has gone from x to 6.91x in 32 years. using compound interest formula, that works out to an average increase of 6.23% per year, but the reality is that there were several years with bumps of 3% or less, and i had to change companies to get decent raises along the way. it's funny to me, because you learn a ton and become more valuable in a job, then the current employer doesn't reward you nearly as much as another employer, so you jump companies and the one where you learned a ton is left to fill the hole that wouldn't be there if they gave raises commensurate with abilities and experience.
not shown above is the change in fed tax rate associated with that pay growth. using current tax brackets, i started in 12% and am now in 22%.
In reply to SV reX :
and my company was trying to tell us it was 3% last year so the raises were totally in line lol
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
I hear you. It doesn't feel right that when you learn and become more valuable to the company, they don't want to pay you more.
I think there is a slightly different way to look at it...
Companies have to pay more to try to entice new employees. If everyone working as an underwater basket engineer is paid $50K and Company A needs a skilled person, they may have to offer you $52K or $55K to get you to jump ship.
It's counterintuitive, but I think it's the reality of the employment market.
It's not rhat your company doesn't love you, it's that another company has to do what it takes to get you because they NEED you.
I mean, I started at $6.25 an hour in 1994 at walmart, which equates to around $13/hr now. I've made as high as $28/hour without any bonuses offered, no college degree and just my own brains and drive. I'm ok with that. Local McD's is hiring at $17.50 an hour and the walmart warehouses at $24/hour but neither of those sound like something my old broken body would want to do.
Big Red Dec 2017- Jan 2021
Toxic Green Feb 2021- June 2022
Orange and Black June 2022 - Present
I worked a pretty mediocre paying internship through college but learned a ton and set myself up with way more practical knowledge than my peers in engineering school that got better grades. I've been out of school for only about 6 years but have a decade of industry experience and have worked at 3 very well known companies since I graduated. I could probably jump ship right now and make 20% more base salary elsewhere but I have the best job security, work-life balance and overall compensation I've ever had with Orange and Black and they just celebrated 120 years so they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
I've had a 46% total salary growth over the last 6 years which is enough for my wife to stay home and for us to be comfortable. I toy with the idea of taking a pay cut to take over the family business in a couple years but that is a totally different industry and I'm still wishy-washy on it. I'm still young I'll figure it out I guess.
bludroptop said:I don't understand why people think they should get a raise for not quitting.
Not sure if this is a troll or an actual serious question.
If you actually don't understand, consider that if you've been with a company for 5 years it cost you more to live now, than it did then. The company doesn't HAVE to give you money to match the rising cost of living, but if they don't who will stay? Also consider that, after 5 years you have more knowledge, are more efficient, and more valuable than you were when you started means you're more valuable to them. Again, they don't HAVE to pay you what you're worth, but someone will.
In reply to DrBoost :
Just to be clear, that would be a cost of living increase. That's not a raise (most of us mix the two).
... but sometimes (like now) inflation rates come DOWN.
And none of us would be ok with lowering our salary because the cost of living went down.
Cuts both ways.
SV reX said:In reply to DrBoost :
Just to be clear, that would be a cost of living increase. That's not a raise (most of us mix the two).
You're right. In theory one would get a cola adjustment (up or down) AND a merit increase.
SV reX said:... but sometimes (like now) inflation rates come DOWN.
And none of us would be ok with lowering our salary because the cost of living went down.
Cuts both ways.
I think inflation coming down is different from deflation.
In reply to Slippery :
You're right.
But prices DO sometimes come down (and therefore the CoL)
Slippery said:SV reX said:... but sometimes (like now) inflation rates come DOWN.
And none of us would be ok with lowering our salary because the cost of living went down.
Cuts both ways.
I think inflation coming down is different from deflation.
Just looked it up...
Deflation is technically when the inflation rate is negative (which does happen)
So, different names for the same thing. I should have referred to it as deflation.
In reply to SV reX :
From that graph you posted earlier the last inflation rate was still around +4%, deflation would be below 0. Deflation is very rare and widely considered to be economically unhealthy.
SV reX said:In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
I hear you. It doesn't feel right that when you learn and become more valuable to the company, they don't want to pay you more.
I think there is a slightly different way to look at it...
Companies have to pay more to try to entice new employees. If everyone working as an underwater basket engineer is paid $50K and Comoany A needs a skilled person, they may have to offer you $52K or $55K to get you to jump ship.
It's counterintuitive, but I think it's the reality of the employment market.
It's not rhat your company doesn't love you, it's that another company has to do what it takes to get you because they NEED you.
To a point that makes sense, but unchecked it gets ridiculous. My current position was mostly a promotion from other positions and the pay was figured as 10% over your last year's pay. Because the other titles were union that got regular increases that led to the senior man in our office with almost 20 years in title making about 75% of what a new manager made. There was no means to address it either, so he only got the sporadic management raises the agency felt like giving. It's hard to keep people from getting bitter in a situation like that. We finally got together, formed a group and pushed the company to bring everyone up to the same level a couple years ago.
GameboyRMH said:In reply to SV reX :
From that graph you posted earlier the last inflation rate was still around +4%, deflation would be below 0. Deflation is very rare and widely considered to be economically unhealthy.
Yes, it's rare. That wasn't the point.
If our position is that we deserve an increase when inflation eats away at our buying power, would we be ok with a salary cut in a deflationary period?
The world doesn't quite work that way.
In reply to SV reX :
Based on the past 100+ years of economic activity, I would OK with that (inflation/deflation adjustment from some fed rate + a merit increase if earned based on productivity and promotions). It would certainly be a net benefit vs. the system today.
I am also in favor of automating federal minimum wage increases to either the same inflation rate, or to the social security benefit % increase every year.
It's also inaccurate to assume that our value is accurate at the time we are hired.
Most of us actually bring minimal value to a company as a new hire. We are an expense, not a revenue source. We are being paid more than we are worth initially in the HOPE that we will improve and be advantageous to the company.
Yes, salary adjustments are not always fair. No argument. But the assumptions about automatic pay increases just because we have existed for a year aren't realistic either.
I make good money because I make my company good money. Not because they owe me something.
In reply to Flynlow (FS) :
I'd be ok with it too. Most people would have a fit.
I think we'd all be healthier and happier if we'd stop assuming our company has an obligation to provide for us, and started figuring out how we can succeed and be a valuable asset to the company.
"Ask not what your company can do for you, but what you can do for your company"
I know a lot of companies suck, and it doesn't always work that way. But we would all be better off if we didn't view ourselves as victims.
In reply to SV reX :
I don't see myself as a victim and know you do not see yourself as one either.
In reply to Steve_Jones :
I certainly do not.
And I like myself, my job, my employer, and my life.
SV reX said:Most of us actually bring minimal value to a company as a new hire. We are an expense, not a revenue source. We are being paid more than we are worth initially in the HOPE that we will improve and be advantageous to the company.
I do agree with that 100%, and have been on both sides of it (as the new guy trainee, and the experienced trainer). I would hope the company would fire/lay off/retrain/reassign underperformers, rather than stagnate the median producer (aka your "meets expectations, reasonably productive" worker, we can't all be rockstars).
Also, a lot of my thoughts in these discussions are what's best for society, rather than me personally. I have done pretty well over 15+ years, sometimes underpaid, rarely (IMO) overpaid, but it's happened, and I felt guilty when it did. Just looking at it from a 1000' view, most folks want a home, to be fed, and to be able to recreate a day or two a week. If we inflate the cost of doing those things beyond what the median citizen can afford, society starts to break down. I think housing and higher education are already in that danger zone, and food and transportation were heading that way the past year or two before pulling back. It worries me.
It's true that deflation is rare. But fluctuations in inflation rates are not.
The inflation rate in 2022 was 8%. If salaries were pegged to inflation (to be "fair") and the inflation rate were to drop to 2% in 2023, we'd bitch about that. THAT'S not fair!! Last year they gave me 8%!
Im more interested in seeking contentment and knowing my value then in measuring myself by my raises.
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