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DrBoost
DrBoost Dork
7/14/10 12:13 p.m.

I think we all knew that the whole Toyota unintended acceleration issue was a non-issue but it appears that will be official soon.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703834604575364871534435744.html?mod=WSJ_auto_IndustryCollection

The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that the throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't engaged at the time of the crash, people familiar with the findings said.

The U.S. Department of Transportation found that throttles were wide open and brakes not engaged on Toyotas involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration, said people familiar with the matter. Mike Ramsey discusses. Also, Joe White and Ashby Jones discuss the U.S. Court ruling striking down certain FCC rules against broadcast indecency.

The early results suggest that some drivers who said their Toyotas and Lexuses surged out of control were mistakenly flooring the accelerator when they intended to jam on the brakes.

But the findings—part of a broad, ongoing federal investigation into Toyota's recalls—don't exonerate the car maker from two known issues blamed for sudden acceleration in its vehicles: "sticky" accelerator pedals that don't return to idle and floor mats that can trap accelerators to the floor.

The findings by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration involve a sample of the reports in which a driver of a Toyota vehicle said the brakes were depressed but failed to stop the car from accelerating and ultimately crashing.

A NHTSA spokeswoman declined to comment on the findings, which haven't been released by the agency.

The data recorders analyzed by NHTSA were selected by the agency, not Toyota, based on complaints the drivers had filed with the government. Toyota hasn't been involved in interpreting the data.

The initial findings are consistent with a 1989 government-sponsored study that blamed similar driver mistakes for a rash of sudden-acceleration reports involving Audi 5000 sedans.

The Toyota findings appear to support Toyota's position that sudden-acceleration reports involving its vehicles weren't caused by electronic glitches in computer-controlled throttle systems, as some safety advocates and plaintiffs' attorneys have alleged. More than 100 people have sued the car maker over crashes they claim were the result of faulty electronics.

It is unknown how many data recorders NHTSA has read so far. The agency's investigators have been reading the data only since Toyota provided the agency with 10 reading devices in March.

Since then, investigators have responded to accidents involving sudden acceleration when the driver claims to have been stepping on the brakes.

Because the data recorders can lose their information if disconnected from the car's battery or if the battery dies—as could happen after a crash—the agency is focusing only on recent accidents, said a person familiar with the situation.

NHTSA has received more than 3,000 complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyotas and Lexuses, including some dating to early last decade, according to a report the agency compiled in March. The incidents include 75 fatal crashes involving 93 deaths.

However, NHTSA has been able to verify that only one of those fatal crashes was caused by a problem with the vehicle, according to information the agency provided to the National Academy of Sciences. That accident last Aug. 28, which killed a California highway patrolman and three passengers in a Lexus, was traced to a floor mat that trapped the gas pedal in the depressed position.

Toyota has since recalled more than eight million cars globally to fix floor mats and sticky accelerators.

The NHTSA spokeswoman said the agency wouldn't comment on its Toyota probe until a broader study is completed in conjunction with NASA, which is expected to take months.

Daniel Smith, NHTSA's associate administrator for enforcement, told a panel of the National Academy of Sciences last month that the agency's sudden-acceleration probe had yet to find any car defects beyond those identified by the company: pedals entrapped by floor mats, and accelerator pedals that are slow to return to idle.

"In spite of our investigations, we have not actually been able yet to find a defect" in electronic throttle-control systems, Mr. Smith told the scientific panel, which is looking into potential causes of sudden acceleration.

"We're bound and determined that if it exists, we're going to find it," he added. "But as yet, we haven't found it."

Some Toyota officials say they are informally aware of the NHTSA data-recorder results. Toyota officials haven't been briefed on the findings, but they corroborate its own tests, said Mike Michels, the chief spokesman for Toyota Motor Sales.

Toyota says its own downloads of data recorders have found evidence of sticky pedals and pedal entrapment as well as driver error, which is characterized by no evidence of the brakes being depressed during impact.

Still, since the start of Toyota's troubles late last summer, the Japanese company hasn't blamed drivers for any of the sudden-acceleration incidents, though in many cases the company couldn't find another cause. Toyota President Akio Toyoda has said the company won't pin the blame on customers for its problems as part of its public-relations response.

An attorney who represents four drivers who sued Toyota in state courts over sudden acceleration said the NHTSA finding doesn't mean much for his litigation. "Toyota has always taken the position that the electronic data recorder system is not reliable," said Tab Turner, the Little Rock, Ark., lawyer.

A Toyota spokesman said the company considers the device "a prototype tool. It wasn't designed to tell us exactly what happened in an accident. It was designed to tell us whether our systems were operating properly."

One case studied by U.S. regulators involves Myrna Marseille of Kohler, Wis., who reported in March that her 2009 Toyota Camry accelerated out of control and crashed into a building.

Ms. Marseille said in an interview Tuesday that she was entering a parking space near a library when she heard the engine roar. "I looked down and my foot was still on the brake, so I did not have my foot on the gas pedal," she said.

Police in Sheboygan Falls, Wis., investigated and believe driver error was to blame, Chief Steven Riffel said Tuesday. He said surveillance video showed that the brake lights didn't illuminate until after the crash. But Mr. Riffel said that determination is preliminary and that his agency has turned over the investigation to NHTSA.

Based on the black box data, NHTSA investigators found that the brake was not engaged and the throttle was wide open, according to a person familiar with the matter.

Ms. Marseille sticks by her story. "It makes me very angry when someone tells me, 'She probably hit the gas pedal instead,' because I think it's a sexist comment, an ageist comment," she said.

Write to Kate Linebaugh at kate.linebaugh@wsj.com

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
7/14/10 12:27 p.m.

I think Toyota owes BP a Christmas card.

triumph5
triumph5 Reader
7/14/10 12:31 p.m.

Through out this whole thing with Toyota, I didn't see a mention ANYWHERE of the Audi 5000 "unintentional acceleration" that was operator error, too. Also, how many people claimed their Toyotas weren't driveable, just as the economy tanked and they could no longer afford the payments?

DukeOfUndersteer
DukeOfUndersteer SuperDork
7/14/10 12:33 p.m.

Hahaha! Thats America for ya! You notice there hasnt been any claims lately of this problem...

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 SuperDork
7/14/10 12:33 p.m.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1047137_drivers-at-fault-in-so-called-sudden-acceleration-toyotas-nhtsa-says

Surprise.

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
7/14/10 12:33 p.m.

"The agency's investigators have been reading the data only since Toyota provided the agency with 10 reading devices in March. "

=

"pay no attention to that man behind the curtain..."

still though, I really never bought the whole OMFG MY CARS BRAIN WANTS TO KILL ME!!!!!! bit, I do though get the very real feeling 'yota decided quantity over quality was a decent game plan for the better part of the last decade.

madmallard
madmallard New Reader
7/14/10 12:40 p.m.

This doesn't negate the discovery of shenaningans regarding avoiding that previous recall that were 'discovered' in the process of this action.

triumph5
triumph5 Reader
7/14/10 12:44 p.m.

In reply to madmallard: True; that DESERVES to be looked into.

alfadriver
alfadriver Dork
7/14/10 12:51 p.m.

Well, to be fair, we should also apologize to Ford (Pinto and Explorer), Audi (5000), GM (trucks) etc.

OTOH, it's nice to see Toyota knocked off their pedestool.

Just had a Yaris rental- what a total piece of junk. Terrible car- I think people use the "reliabilty" excuse for their reason to buy such garbage.

Eric

Cotton
Cotton HalfDork
7/14/10 12:52 p.m.

Toyota owes me an apology for making boring appliances. I had several MR2s, Supras, and a Celica GTS in the past, but berkeley them now.

Keith
Keith GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/14/10 12:53 p.m.
DrBoost wrote: NHTSA has received more than 3,000 complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyotas and Lexuses, including some dating to early last decade, according to a report the agency compiled in March. The incidents include 75 fatal crashes involving 93 deaths.

I wonder how this compares to other carmakers? That number is meaningless on its own, especially if you consider the amount of noise in the NHTSA database.

DrBoost wrote: Ms. Marseille sticks by her story. "It makes me very angry when someone tells me, 'She probably hit the gas pedal instead,' because I think it's a sexist comment, an ageist comment," she said.

Yes, because any comment about her driving is obviously due to her age and sex. Nothing to do with her ramming a building a WOT.

I'll bet Audi sends Toyota a Christmas card.

96DXCivic
96DXCivic Dork
7/14/10 1:13 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: Well, to be fair, we should also apologize to Ford (Pinto and Explorer), Audi (5000), GM (trucks) etc. OTOH, it's nice to see Toyota knocked off their pedestool. Just had a Yaris rental- what a total piece of junk. Terrible car- I think people use the "reliabilty" excuse for their reason to buy such garbage. Eric

I drove a Yaris and I thought it was pretty fun.

Cotton
Cotton HalfDork
7/14/10 1:19 p.m.
96DXCivic wrote:
alfadriver wrote: Well, to be fair, we should also apologize to Ford (Pinto and Explorer), Audi (5000), GM (trucks) etc. OTOH, it's nice to see Toyota knocked off their pedestool. Just had a Yaris rental- what a total piece of junk. Terrible car- I think people use the "reliabilty" excuse for their reason to buy such garbage. Eric
I drove a Yaris and I thought it was pretty fun.

If that's the only car you've ever driven in you life then, yeah, you may have something there.

96DXCivic
96DXCivic Dork
7/14/10 1:22 p.m.
Cotton wrote:
96DXCivic wrote:
alfadriver wrote: Well, to be fair, we should also apologize to Ford (Pinto and Explorer), Audi (5000), GM (trucks) etc. OTOH, it's nice to see Toyota knocked off their pedestool. Just had a Yaris rental- what a total piece of junk. Terrible car- I think people use the "reliabilty" excuse for their reason to buy such garbage. Eric
I drove a Yaris and I thought it was pretty fun.
If that's the only car you've ever driven in you life then, yeah, you may have something there.

I guess to be fair It was modified a little.

Bobzilla
Bobzilla Dork
7/14/10 1:23 p.m.

OK.... flipside:

They're reading the black boxes looking for the instance and showing no recrded braking. What if their problem is software and that it's not braking because it's not showing that the pedal has even been depressed?

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 SuperDork
7/14/10 1:44 p.m.

Taken from my reply to Bob on the local SB:

1) car accelerates by itself
2) driver ACTUALLY hits brake pedal
3) brake system fails (remember the magazines that tested and found that the brakes were sufficient to stop the car even under WOT at the same time)
4) then the black box happens to read brake pedal as gas pedal

That's a lot of coincidences.

paul
paul Reader
7/14/10 1:51 p.m.
Cotton wrote: Toyota owes me an apology for making boring appliances. I had several MR2s, Supras, and a Celica GTS in the past, but berkeley them now.

THIS!....

alfadriver
alfadriver Dork
7/14/10 2:41 p.m.
96DXCivic wrote:
Cotton wrote:
96DXCivic wrote:
alfadriver wrote: Well, to be fair, we should also apologize to Ford (Pinto and Explorer), Audi (5000), GM (trucks) etc. OTOH, it's nice to see Toyota knocked off their pedestool. Just had a Yaris rental- what a total piece of junk. Terrible car- I think people use the "reliabilty" excuse for their reason to buy such garbage. Eric
I drove a Yaris and I thought it was pretty fun.
If that's the only car you've ever driven in you life then, yeah, you may have something there.
I guess to be fair It was modified a little.

Rental, 4 speed (hello- this is the 21st century, can we say 5 or 6 speed?), 1.6l (decent enough)- terrible interior.

the center dash idea is a complete fail. I hated that I had to look away from straight to see important info- that was the first thing I saw and hated.

second was the horrible plastics- every single surface was hard as a rock. very uncomfortable.

third was a hard to deal with driving position- but other people may like that.

funny enough- a nit pick was the total manual everything- locks, mirrors, windows, everything- I guess it's the bottom of bottom line cars.

What bugged me most was the lack of refinement in the powertrain. Bad idle quality, and terrible driveability in the hills- step in, step in, step in (DOWNSHIFT) back out, back out, upshift, repeat about 100 times. We fixed that problem 20 years ago- when did Toyota forget that?

For thier reputation, the car was horrible. If it were a Hyundai, it would have been just bad. But T is held in such regard, the only think I could think of is people use the "reliability and reputation" as excuses for them buying complete pieces of junk. How else would this thing sell in such numbers?

Eric

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
7/14/10 2:47 p.m.
93celicaGT2 wrote: Taken from my reply to Bob on the local SB: 1) car accelerates by itself 2) driver ACTUALLY hits brake pedal 3) brake system fails (remember the magazines that tested and found that the brakes were sufficient to stop the car even under WOT at the same time) 4) then the black box happens to read brake pedal as gas pedal That's a lot of coincidences.

remember, the NHTSA is using TOYOTAS equipment to read these "recorders"...

racerfink
racerfink Reader
7/14/10 2:51 p.m.

No they don't

http://kansascity.injuryboard.com/automobile-accidents/toyota-bullied-auto-professor-and-university-on-sudden-acceleration-problem.aspx?googleid=282974

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 SuperDork
7/14/10 2:56 p.m.
4cylndrfury wrote:
93celicaGT2 wrote: Taken from my reply to Bob on the local SB: 1) car accelerates by itself 2) driver ACTUALLY hits brake pedal 3) brake system fails (remember the magazines that tested and found that the brakes were sufficient to stop the car even under WOT at the same time) 4) then the black box happens to read brake pedal as gas pedal That's a lot of coincidences.
remember, the NHTSA is using TOYOTAS equipment to read these "recorders"...

Well, if i'm understanding what you're insinuating, then we shouldn't see ANY malfunctions out of the 3,000 investigated.

Bobzilla
Bobzilla Dork
7/14/10 3:21 p.m.
racerfink wrote: No they don't http://kansascity.injuryboard.com/automobile-accidents/toyota-bullied-auto-professor-and-university-on-sudden-acceleration-problem.aspx?googleid=282974

why does that not suprise me. Go toyoduh!

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
7/14/10 3:24 p.m.
93celicaGT2 wrote:
4cylndrfury wrote:
93celicaGT2 wrote: Taken from my reply to Bob on the local SB: 1) car accelerates by itself 2) driver ACTUALLY hits brake pedal 3) brake system fails (remember the magazines that tested and found that the brakes were sufficient to stop the car even under WOT at the same time) 4) then the black box happens to read brake pedal as gas pedal That's a lot of coincidences.
remember, the NHTSA is using TOYOTAS equipment to read these "recorders"...
Well, if i'm understanding what you're insinuating, then we shouldn't see ANY malfunctions out of the 3,000 investigated.

fair enough...it does sound like Im making my foil hat while I type

Strizzo
Strizzo SuperDork
7/14/10 3:36 p.m.

In reply to 4cylndrfury:

seriously though, the article says that the NHTSA is saying they picked the boxes, and they did all this with no help from toyota, but they didn't. they requested the boxes from toyota, and they're using toyotas equipment to read the boxes. if they were sneaky enough to talk the inspectors into not making them do a recall before, i wouldn't put tampering with evidence past them

blaze86vic
blaze86vic Reader
7/14/10 4:34 p.m.

I really don't care, with all the BS the American auto makes have had to put up with for the past 3 years, Toyota needs to just suck it up. They wanted to be #1, well welcome to the top! Here is you #1 mug, and your 10,000,000 false allegations with years of unwarranted bad publicity from people poking any way they can at the leader.

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