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Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/24/22 3:53 p.m.

P.S.  There is also a huge issue in cases like this, that while I think the government needs to step in, the problem is that the average Congressman/Woman (age 57.6 years) and the average Senator (age 62.9) has very very little understanding of the concepts at stake.  See the confusion over customers and making money back with the Faceballs hearings.  This is where you need assistance from an impartial (haha, like that's ever going to happen from either side) organization.  No, I don't claim to have the answers, I just think that modern TOS are so far beyond most people ability to undersatnad and comprehend that something has to be done about it.

03Panther
03Panther UltraDork
1/24/22 8:27 p.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

You and I differ on a lot of "social" info... but you stated this extremely well! Well put, well worded, and well thought out. And I could not have. My compliments, sir. 

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
1/24/22 10:44 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

Which makes them a highly organized spammer. Do they have an affiliate program yet? Oh, hell yeah! A spammer banking on your search terms. The ultimate!

When Searching for anything obscure you have to bust through the first and second layers of advertising, to finally get at what you want if it can be rooted out.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
1/25/22 8:27 a.m.

This should be a federal action, but the feds only seem interested in driving consolidation via policy.  When was the last time we busted a trust?  The 70's?  
 

im still waiting for consumer prices to fall like I was promised when people were selling the big corporate tax cut. 
 

Lots of waiting. Little action. 

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter)
pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/25/22 8:43 a.m.

Yes and no.  I have nothing against Google, they are a big organization and do a lot of good for a lot of people and give lots of people jobs. But the suit is not against Google for just existing, it is for something specific: 

In separate lawsuits, the attorneys general of the district, Texas, Washington and Indiana claimed that Google misled users of Android phones and of tools like Google Maps and its search engine by continuing to track location information of users who had changed privacy settings to prevent the data collection.

I don't even care that Google tracks me, I'm not a conspiracy type or privacy advocate. BUT, if I didn't want to be tracked, and I turned it off, and Google lied to me and kept tracking me anyway...I would be pissed.  Instead of me dropping Google and going with another option (because Apple isn't tracking us, right? wink wink) I stayed with Google based on their promise of privacy, I would be supportive of the suit. I mean, I am even if it doesn't apply to me directly, because its wrong. 

67LS1
67LS1 Reader
1/25/22 9:12 a.m.
alfadriver said:
67LS1 said:

As much as everyone professes to hate Google, they're the best at what they do.

You mean delivering hits to the people who pay to advertise on them?

In theory, they have am amazing search engine.  But it's also possible that they bias the search in ways that the consumer has no idea about.  I know I still lean on google to deliver what I am asking, but I'm not 100% confident they are delivering the whole answer anymore.   Especially when you search for something more obscure, and there's a page or two of companies selling stuff over the actual info you are looking for.

That is their business model, ie, selling advertising. I read somewhere a long time ago that if you did a search for "personal injury attorney in Chicago" the cost to be the number one hit was like $100 per search. Crazy but some attorney agreed to pay it, so....

And while I have no insight into the algorithms that Google uses in their search engine I'm generally happy with the results. So if them tracking me helps with those results, no worries.

Tracking people who have opted out is another issue. They should not be doing that. But IMO, they shouldn't even offer an opt out. You use their service as offered or go elsewhere. Problem solved.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/25/22 9:22 a.m.

In reply to 67LS1 :

That assumes that the free market is really free, and that there's an alternative that is reasonably close to equal.  Neither of which are true.

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/25/22 9:35 a.m.

In reply to 03Panther :

Thanks.  That's the best thing about this site.  Most of the time we can be respectful of each other even when we disagree, and when we do people can reach out and acknowledge it.  Thank you, and right back at you :)

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
1/25/22 9:46 a.m.
GameboyRMH said:

Let me add one thing for those not in the know about this - let me tell you about the Killzone.

Each of these tech megacorps has a "killzone" around their most profitable products - if your company steps into the "killzone" by competing with them, they will buy you out, or if they can't, they'll destroy your company in anticompetitive ways:

https://financialpost.com/technology/inside-the-kill-zone-big-tech-makes-life-miserable-for-some-startups-but-others-embrace-its-power

This deserves more attention, so I'm going to quote it here. 

Isn't this the very definition of "unfair methods of competition?"  How does google destroying their competitors and operating in a de-facto monopoly benefit the consumer?

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/antitrust-laws

jharry3
jharry3 GRM+ Memberand Dork
1/25/22 10:20 a.m.

www.duckduckgo.com

On their website:

Tired of being tracked online? We can help.

We don't store your personal info. We don't follow you around with ads. We don't track you. Ever.

 

barefootskater5000
barefootskater5000 PowerDork
1/25/22 10:28 a.m.

In reply to jharry3 :

I have used DuckDuckGo. Seems to work well enough as a browser. Here's the thing though. They provide a free service. And they advertise. Where exactly are they making their money? Not asking you, just rhetorical. 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
1/25/22 10:44 a.m.

In reply to barefootskater5000 :

Yeah that's the problem I have with these vpn companies.  You're just trusting some one else to do what they say they are going to do.  

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/25/22 10:44 a.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

I agree in principle with the sentiment that 'you accepted the TOS so it's your own fault'.  But that's not really a practical argument in these days.  IF you're a student you in many cases have no ability to opt out of using Google services.  If you are older (by which I'm implying over 70, as at 52 I grew up with computers, the early internet, dumb phones and onwards) you literally may not understand what you are agreeing too.  Also even for you average, above average or way above average person, understanding what the TOS mean without a Juris Doctorate is realistically beyond you.  You are forced to sign at the bottom of pages and pages of 8pt text.  Yes, the argument is you shouldn't sign if you don't understand, but there comes a point that understanding is beyond the normal persons capability and something is so ubiquitous that in reality you have to accept the TOS, or be forced to one of the very very few true competitors who all have equally onerous and difficult to understand TOS.  That's the point that the 'government' should step in to protect people.  This isn't shirking personal responsibility or wanting a nanny state, there is a point that something is so complex (or dangerous, or hazards to others etc.) that it's beyond the expectations that a normal person can understand the whole scope.  That's why States have standardized forms and contracts for buying a house etc.   

If you don't know what you're agreeing to, don't agree to it. That seems pretty simple to me. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/25/22 10:46 a.m.
Fueled by Caffeine said:

In reply to barefootskater5000 :

Yeah that's the problem I have with these vpn companies.  You're just trusting some one else to do what they say they are going to do.  

To be fair, VPNs are BS. Just like TOR browsers and the like. To get to X there is still a trail of how your IP address got to that IP address. It's just whether it's worth it to track it down based on the severity of your offense. 

 

In this context, that is. VPNs do serve a purpose for instance, I have to sign into my companies VPN to access certain things I need for work. But if you're just using a VPN in attempt to "protect your privacy" that doesn't work. 

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) Dork
1/25/22 11:16 a.m.
barefootskater5000 said:

In reply to jharry3 :

I have used DuckDuckGo. Seems to work well enough as a browser. Here's the thing though. They provide a free service. And they advertise. Where exactly are they making their money? Not asking you, just rhetorical. 

They advertise. They sell ads on their site.  They just don't track you and personalize your 'ad experience' like Google does. Just like everybody on the web used to do before they invented cookies and all the tracking technology.

My iPhone makes a big point of reminding me of how many times it blocks Google from tracking me. Duck Duck Go keeps reminding me that they aren't Google.

If you frequent questionable political sites and sites that sell weapons Google might share that with the authorities if they get a subpoena. Or they might just sell your information to every gun shop and mail order prepper supply the country. Maybe they could get hacked and hackers could embarrass you with your web browsing habits. Then again, does anybody really care that I shop for old Miatas and broken C3 Corvettes on Facebook Marketplace at 2:30 in the morning?

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/25/22 11:45 a.m.

Duck Duck go may not store info or cookies, but if your on a mobile device then either Apple, Google or whoever is the OS on your phone still knows where you've been and what you've done.

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/25/22 11:50 a.m.
z31maniac said:

If you don't know what you're agreeing to, don't agree to it. That seems pretty simple to me. 

These days that's like saying if you don't know how the local authority treats your water, just don't drink any.  It's not practical.  You need to be online to apply for jobs, benefits, banking etc. these days.  While it is theoretically possible to function not connected these days, it's effectively impossible.  These things have become the bedrock of our society and people can't practically not use them.

 

jharry3
jharry3 GRM+ Memberand Dork
1/25/22 11:54 a.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:
z31maniac said:

If you don't know what you're agreeing to, don't agree to it. That seems pretty simple to me. 

These days that's like saying if you don't know how the local authority treats your water, just don't drink any.  It's not practical.  You need to be online to apply for jobs, benefits, banking etc. these days.  While it is theoretically possible to function not connected these days, it's effectively impossible.  These things have become the bedrock of our society and people can't practically not use them.

 

Right, and a few EMP bombs could put the 1st World into the Stone Age since we have lost all the analog ways of communicating, banking, and record keeping.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
1/25/22 11:58 a.m.
jharry3 said:
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:
z31maniac said:

If you don't know what you're agreeing to, don't agree to it. That seems pretty simple to me. 

These days that's like saying if you don't know how the local authority treats your water, just don't drink any.  It's not practical.  You need to be online to apply for jobs, benefits, banking etc. these days.  While it is theoretically possible to function not connected these days, it's effectively impossible.  These things have become the bedrock of our society and people can't practically not use them.

 

Right, and a few EMP bombs could put the 1st World into the Stone Age since we have lost all the analog ways of communicating, banking, and record keeping.

I'm guessing you've never dealt with the Indian government and their extreme penchant for reams of paper. 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/25/22 12:40 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Duck Duck go may not store info or cookies, but if your on a mobile device then either Apple, Google or whoever is the OS on your phone still knows where you've been and what you've done.

Not if you have a rooted Android phone with no Google apps on it, or if you run some oddball OS on it like SailfishOS.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
1/25/22 1:09 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Duck Duck go may not store info or cookies, but if your on a mobile device then either Apple, Google or whoever is the OS on your phone still knows where you've been and what you've done.

And yet, they are advertising a lot now.  Clearly they are making money selling something....

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
1/25/22 1:20 p.m.
z31maniac said:

If you don't know what you're agreeing to, don't agree to it. That seems pretty simple to me. 

Anything sounds simple if you ignore all the complications. "Just put in a new engine," "Just restart their heart and get neurological activity back up and running," "Just avoid using any Google, Apple, Facebook, or Amazon connected services." All very "simple" things to do.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
1/25/22 1:21 p.m.

In reply to aircooled :

Advertising. But blanket advertising, not tailored ads from data profiles.

03Panther
03Panther UltraDork
1/25/22 8:05 p.m.
barefootskater5000 said:

In reply to jharry3 :

I have used DuckDuckGo. Seems to work well enough as a browser. Here's the thing though. They provide a free service. And they advertise. Where exactly are they making their money? Not asking you, just rhetorical. 

I looked into them a bit; since a friend that did not use to be a conspiracy nut has become one last year. I found: the g is prolly tracking ya 100% of the time... ddg does track you less. 
Prolly only 90% of the time!

I actually have more of a problem with that. But anyone that believed them without checking, well...

OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
1/25/22 9:43 p.m.

Gonna suck when they start charging for gmail and YouTube 

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