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Johnboyjjb
Johnboyjjb HalfDork
7/13/23 11:34 p.m.

I'll say businesses around here keep rejecting my 16 year olds for having no experience (even though they have a few months). Or being too young. And then complain that nobody wants to work, and they desperately need people, and they are paying minimum wage. It is very frustrating by proxy.

dj06482 (Forum Supporter)
dj06482 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/14/23 7:05 a.m.

IT is particularly brutal from a search perspective. When I was a manager, I hired based off of general skills (i.e. troubleshooting, personality, ability to learn, etc.) with the idea that hard technical skills could be learned by a competent person.

It's all about finding the right hiring manager who can see your value. As an example, the person who hired me understood my value, but I don't know that my current manager would have even given me a glance. Now that I'm established in the organization and have proven my value it doesn't matter, but if I were trying to break in it would.

Sometimes certifications help because they demonstrate an ability to learn a particular skill. Then you can point to them in the interview and say something along the lines of "I'm not an expert on that area currently, but my xyz certification demonstrates my ability to rapidly learn new technical skills."

Happy to connect in LinkedIn and share my network with you. I work for a large, four letter IT company based in Austin, TX, and security is huge (and expanding) around here!

porschenut
porschenut HalfDork
7/14/23 7:35 a.m.

Not just this market, bad interview processes have been going on for decades.  My last job before retirement (2015) required a personality test that was from the 50's based on language and artwork.  The test was a joke, just answer what they want not how you feel.  Well I got the job and soon found out why.  Previous guy lasted 6 weeks and walked out stating "life is too short to work here"  and I lasted 16 months before doing the same.  

aw614
aw614 HalfDork
7/14/23 8:49 a.m.
porschenut said:

Not just this market, bad interview processes have been going on for decades.  My last job before retirement (2015) required a personality test that was from the 50's based on language and artwork.  The test was a joke, just answer what they want not how you feel.  Well I got the job and soon found out why.  Previous guy lasted 6 weeks and walked out stating "life is too short to work here"  and I lasted 16 months before doing the same.  

There are a few companies in Clearwater, FL that use "personaility tests" from Ron L Hubbard as part of their hiring process. It was weird when I went in to an interview and saw it...

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 PowerDork
7/14/23 1:21 p.m.
JThw8 said:
DirtyBird222 said:
JThw8 said:
DirtyBird222 said:

My experience recently has been more like Brotus. "Can you give us the binary version of this subnet mask?"

If you are actually getting that question it leads me to belive you work in the IT field.  Looking/willing to relocate?  

I do work in the IT field. Mainly in information assurance, policy, and risk management side of the house. I can get my hands "dirty" in the technical stuff but it's not what I'm most proficient at. 

Where at?

 

Potentially NC.  Going to be staffing up a new unit within my company, will have a few openings and I think IT Security is one of them (I think my current ITSec guy is going to stay with the existing local unit rather than join the new unit), still getting headcount approved and JDs finalized but if you are up to relocation I can at least send you the posting when it opens up.

Oh rad, yea let me know. I'll always entertain anything. I'm guessing the triangle area? 

Scotty Con Queso
Scotty Con Queso UltraDork
7/14/23 2:25 p.m.

I think the endless HR, hiring, retention, chief people officers, etc. have bogged down the process so much that making a decision to hire someone is almost impossible.

Meanwhile, the managers that are begging for more help are completely ignored. 

JThw8
JThw8 UltimaDork
7/14/23 5:45 p.m.

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

yeah, near enough anyway.  I live quite a bit away from the job site as Im done with anything resembling cities but the site itself is outside of the city and there are options.  I suspect the postings will be finalized sometime in August (the corporate overlords who are responsible for such things are pretty much off for the month of July)  Its a good company and no games on interviews.  I wont be the hiring manager as I swore off people management a few years ago but I will be on the interview team as I'll be the operations manager for the team.  Shoot me an email, jim at misfittoysracing dot com.  When they are posted to the public I'll shoot you some links.

Johnboyjjb
Johnboyjjb HalfDork
7/14/23 6:03 p.m.

In reply to Scotty Con Queso :

I always thought that hiring people off the street was stupid. Most of the time it should be a 3-6 month contract that leads to a full job. Then you could cut 80% of the HR overhead. Hiring people is a huge risk because the hiring business has no idea if it will work out but could incrue huge amounts of expense to dispose of a bad hire. So remove some of that risk.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/14/23 6:21 p.m.
aw614 said:
porschenut said:

Not just this market, bad interview processes have been going on for decades.  My last job before retirement (2015) required a personality test that was from the 50's based on language and artwork.  The test was a joke, just answer what they want not how you feel.  Well I got the job and soon found out why.  Previous guy lasted 6 weeks and walked out stating "life is too short to work here"  and I lasted 16 months before doing the same.  

There are a few companies in Clearwater, FL that use "personaility tests" from Ron L Hubbard as part of their hiring process. It was weird when I went in to an interview and saw it...

I interviewed with a place years ago that had me take a personality test. It was two separate ones, both were something like 200 questions. 

I don't know if I answered a certain way, because then when I went into interview with the head of HR he just came after me in a way over-the-top aggressive way. It caught me so off guard, I flubbed the questions (on top of not wanting to work there anymore). The recruiter was flabbergasted after talking with the initial HR person, the person who would manage, he was so sure I would be offered the job he even came with me to the final interview. 

mtn
mtn MegaDork
7/14/23 9:14 p.m.

I'll chime in here with my recent experience. I was caught up in a staffing reduction at my company, and let go on May 23, effective June 6. The way it all worked out was pretty good for me considering, I'm going to collect severance through mid August and I kept my insurance through June 30. 

 

I started applying probably on May 25, and the week of May 29, I treated it like a full time job. I probably submitted 300 applications. 

I had a lot of rejections early on. Starting June 14 though, I had my first interview. I ended up interviewing for 11 positions at 9 companies. I was pretty blatantly transparent with all of them about why I was let go, what I want in a position, and my issues with their positions. 

I received my first offer from Company 1 on June 30, and accepted it on July 5. During that time, I canceled a few interviews, checked with the recruiters on some others for the salary range, and declined 2 other offers. Some I told them that they're asking people to be in the office 5 days a week in 2023 is ridiculous. Others, I told them point blank that their 2 weeks of vacation (or 3 weeks with no sick days and 6 holidays) was an insult. 

On July 11, after I had accepted my position, the recruiter for another position at Company 2 I had been interviewing for contacted me and told me I needed to have another interview, but they were going to make an offer. This is, in my opinion, one of the best companies in the world. I have wanted to work there a long time. But the commute, the position, the structure of this specific team, all have me wary. I had that last interview today. I'm supposed to start my new job at Company 1 on Monday. I expect I'll get an offer from Company 2. Everything about the job itself is better at Company 1. Everything about the company is better at Company 2. But the commute at Company 2 is a killer, and they're old-fashioned in terms of hybrid/remote. So they're going to need to knock my socks off at Company 2 to make me make the jump. Good problem to have, but an uncomfortable situation to be in. 

 

I was shocked at how many companies wanted me. I have a relatively unique skill set, but it is not that hard to learn. Most of it is just knowing how to google your problem - something I was also very up front with every interviewer about (incidentally, everyone was very impressed with that answer). I was also shocked at companies posting a salary range, then stating that the target is basically the lower quarter of the salary range. They seem to be requesting a 747 but only have the budget for an experimental home built, then are shocked when I withdraw my application. No wonder your position has been open for 2 months. 

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 PowerDork
7/18/23 4:24 p.m.
mtn said:

I'll chime in here with my recent experience. I was caught up in a staffing reduction at my company, and let go on May 23, effective June 6. The way it all worked out was pretty good for me considering, I'm going to collect severance through mid August and I kept my insurance through June 30. 

 

I started applying probably on May 25, and the week of May 29, I treated it like a full time job. I probably submitted 300 applications. 

I had a lot of rejections early on. Starting June 14 though, I had my first interview. I ended up interviewing for 11 positions at 9 companies. I was pretty blatantly transparent with all of them about why I was let go, what I want in a position, and my issues with their positions. 

I received my first offer from Company 1 on June 30, and accepted it on July 5. During that time, I canceled a few interviews, checked with the recruiters on some others for the salary range, and declined 2 other offers. Some I told them that they're asking people to be in the office 5 days a week in 2023 is ridiculous. Others, I told them point blank that their 2 weeks of vacation (or 3 weeks with no sick days and 6 holidays) was an insult. 

On July 11, after I had accepted my position, the recruiter for another position at Company 2 I had been interviewing for contacted me and told me I needed to have another interview, but they were going to make an offer. This is, in my opinion, one of the best companies in the world. I have wanted to work there a long time. But the commute, the position, the structure of this specific team, all have me wary. I had that last interview today. I'm supposed to start my new job at Company 1 on Monday. I expect I'll get an offer from Company 2. Everything about the job itself is better at Company 1. Everything about the company is better at Company 2. But the commute at Company 2 is a killer, and they're old-fashioned in terms of hybrid/remote. So they're going to need to knock my socks off at Company 2 to make me make the jump. Good problem to have, but an uncomfortable situation to be in. 

 

I was shocked at how many companies wanted me. I have a relatively unique skill set, but it is not that hard to learn. Most of it is just knowing how to google your problem - something I was also very up front with every interviewer about (incidentally, everyone was very impressed with that answer). I was also shocked at companies posting a salary range, then stating that the target is basically the lower quarter of the salary range. They seem to be requesting a 747 but only have the budget for an experimental home built, then are shocked when I withdraw my application. No wonder your position has been open for 2 months. 

I'm glad things are working out for you! Sounds like you want to stay with company 1 and it works out better for you. 

I've made it a part time job doing this. I'll search for jobs, copy links for the positions, e-mail them to myself, write resumes to match the posting, tailer a cover letter, apply, next. I can knock out a whole application with edits in under 15 minutes. I replace buzz words or a few lines here or there to address the posting in an effort to attract the attention of the automated systems that flag resumes for review. 

A friend referred me to a position with Stripe. This was their response LOL. 

"Thank you for your interest in Stripe. [ENTER STRIPE REFERRER NAME] passed along your information and suggested we reach out for the [ENTER POSITION HERE] role at Stripe. We are committed to providing a thorough and efficient review process for all of our referrals. 

Our team had a chance to review your profile, and we wanted to provide an update as soon as possible. After careful consideration, we have decided not to move forward in the interview process. The team is looking for candidates with a bit more [ENTER XYZ EXPERIENCE THAT CANDIDATE IS LACKING] for these roles."

NY Nick
NY Nick GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/18/23 4:45 p.m.
Johnboyjjb said:

In reply to Scotty Con Queso :

I always thought that hiring people off the street was stupid. Most of the time it should be a 3-6 month contract that leads to a full job. Then you could cut 80% of the HR overhead. Hiring people is a huge risk because the hiring business has no idea if it will work out but could incrue huge amounts of expense to dispose of a bad hire. So remove some of that risk.

This is a nice theory but you need to have an amazing development system and be bringing in enough fresh new workers to replace your turnover. If you do this you will never get a top talent person to come to your organization. My company had a hiring freeze for a couple years and we needed people so they tried to fill the gap with temps. What you are describing is a temp job, all the top talent wouldn't even consider it, they offer no benefits and no stability so they can go get other jobs that offer those 2 things. I kissed so many frogs in the temp pool, maybe one of them ever worked out to be a decent full time hire and I had dozens of temps.

Peabody
Peabody MegaDork
7/18/23 5:10 p.m.
Johnboyjjb said:

In reply to Scotty Con Queso :

 Hiring people is a huge risk because the hiring business has no idea if it will work out but could incrue huge amounts of expense to dispose of a bad hire. So remove some of that risk.

It doesn't work for the reasons mentioned, but a bigger problem is HR departments. With one exception I've never seen one that gave the impression that they had any idea what they are doing.

When an HR manager mentioned to me in a follow up call after interview number 3, and almost a month in, that she wanted me to do a personality test I laughed at her. Really, do you have any idea what you are doing?

mtn
mtn MegaDork
7/18/23 10:29 p.m.

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

First thing I did was sit down with my dad and rewrote my resume. He had been through a couple of resume writing classes as part of his package, despite him retiring because of the package, and had some good tips. I would recommend paying for someone to look at it if you don't have someone who is an "expert" in it to help you for free. 
 

Then, I decided to apply by company. Company A, I'd find 5 jobs that I might be qualified for, apply to all of them hit the "use my last application" button. Move on to company B. 
 

I kind of worked it by industry. Banks one day, technology companies the next, healthcare companies after that, automotive... it helps that I've been in Vendor Management, Vendor Risk, Collections, Operational Risk, Finance, general "Business analyst", capital analyst, FP&A analyst, financial analyst, process analyst - and mind you, that was only 4 companies. I took advantage of official title vs functional title to give me the best shot.

Funny thing about all of those jobs is that the biggest requirements to be successful are really know how to use Excel and know what question or phrase to put in the google search bar. 

Furious_E (Forum Supporter)
Furious_E (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
7/19/23 7:21 p.m.

In reply to mtn :

I was let go in a "staffing reduction" as well last week.

Had a very long winded, somewhat rambling post typed up earlier but decided to dump it into a Word doc and finish it off as a sort of essay to myself to collect some thoughts instead. The TLDR version is basically a change in product mix with our one dominant customer, which necessitated a cut in overhead, combined with an impending reorg that left my position vulnerable to just such a catastrophe, is what precipitated the event. I wasn't entirely blind sided by it, nor do I think a change in scenery will ultimately wind up being a bad thing - there have been some undercurrents of dissatisfaction with my current (well, former) situation brewing for a while that this has forced me to confront. Still, having been there close to 10 years now, since I was fresh out of college, I'm a bit rusty on all this and the whole job search and interview process is not something I particularly enjoy. Good news is there seems to be plenty of job postings out there.

Now that I've had some time to unwind a bit, it's time to start updating my resume. Any specific tips or resources you'd recommend?

My background is in mechanical engineering, having moved into the role of engineering manager at our relatively small company the past three years. Coming from that small company environment I've had the opportunity to do at least a little bit of a lot of things, and have a fairly broadly applicable skill set in a manufacturing environment, although jack of all trades master of none would be an accurate descriptor.  

Not sure to what extent I want to pursue another management role at this point, in part due to the fact that I kind of miss the relative simplicity of a more technical position - "things" are much more straightforward to deal with than people - but also due to insecurities about my own qualifications. I've done some good stuff in my latest role, most notably IMHO in assembling the team I had (which somewhat ironically is also what ultimately made me expendable,) and a number of solid references, but I'm way on the young end of the spectrum for the position I had and feel that I lack depth and breadth of experience. Getting in somewhere with a solid management development program might be the best route if I want to stay on that track, as it was mostly learn on the fly at my last place. 

Ultimately what I think I'm really after is really the right company and environment, and I feel like I could fit and be happy in any number of roles within that. 

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 PowerDork
7/20/23 9:20 a.m.
Furious_E (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to mtn :

I was let go in a "staffing reduction" as well last week.

Had a very long winded, somewhat rambling post typed up earlier but decided to dump it into a Word doc and finish it off as a sort of essay to myself to collect some thoughts instead. The TLDR version is basically a change in product mix with our one dominant customer, which necessitated a cut in overhead, combined with an impending reorg that left my position vulnerable to just such a catastrophe, is what precipitated the event. I wasn't entirely blind sided by it, nor do I think a change in scenery will ultimately wind up being a bad thing - there have been some undercurrents of dissatisfaction with my current (well, former) situation brewing for a while that this has forced me to confront. Still, having been there close to 10 years now, since I was fresh out of college, I'm a bit rusty on all this and the whole job search and interview process is not something I particularly enjoy. Good news is there seems to be plenty of job postings out there.

Now that I've had some time to unwind a bit, it's time to start updating my resume. Any specific tips or resources you'd recommend?

My background is in mechanical engineering, having moved into the role of engineering manager at our relatively small company the past three years. Coming from that small company environment I've had the opportunity to do at least a little bit of a lot of things, and have a fairly broadly applicable skill set in a manufacturing environment, although jack of all trades master of none would be an accurate descriptor.  

Not sure to what extent I want to pursue another management role at this point, in part due to the fact that I kind of miss the relative simplicity of a more technical position - "things" are much more straightforward to deal with than people - but also due to insecurities about my own qualifications. I've done some good stuff in my latest role, most notably IMHO in assembling the team I had (which somewhat ironically is also what ultimately made me expendable,) and a number of solid references, but I'm way on the young end of the spectrum for the position I had and feel that I lack depth and breadth of experience. Getting in somewhere with a solid management development program might be the best route if I want to stay on that track, as it was mostly learn on the fly at my last place. 

Ultimately what I think I'm really after is really the right company and environment, and I feel like I could fit and be happy in any number of roles within that. 

Dude I'm really sorry to hear that. Frustrated with your position or not, it sucks to be put in a bind. 

As far as resources. I got on Linkedin and started looking at other people's resumes and profiles with similar backgrounds and took notes. Apparently modern resumes are heavy on the brevity and more artistic; however, I feel that doesn't work well in certain industries. 

I also tailor buzz words in my resume to the job I'm applying for. Does the req say "NIST 800.53 or ISO 27001?" If the answer is yes, well then a resume bullet might look like this: 

  • Apply NIST 800-53 and RMF practices, including STIGs implementation, to ensure compliance with cybersecurity standards and regulations.

I've got mine broken down into this format:

Name

Profession

Email| Location | Phone | linkedin URL

Profile Summary

Skills (Professional and Technical)

Education

Certifications

Professional Experience

  - Job 1

  - Job 2

Military Experience

 - Job 1

 - Job 2

Puddy46
Puddy46 Reader
7/20/23 9:44 a.m.

In reply to Furious_E (Forum Supporter) :

If you were able to manage a team through the last three years, you have all the experience you need.  You did the job on expert mode.  

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/20/23 10:27 a.m.

if you can put some monetary or process value to the bullet points, that's a win.

every test engineer resume says "analyzed data to determine blah blah blah..." 

make yours the one that says "realized annual savings of $57K through streamlining process based on data analysis"

and every applications engineer resume says "managed cross-functional team to deliver to established milestones"

make yours the one that says "managed cross-functional team to deliver $50M project on time and under budget"

 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/20/23 10:49 a.m.

I'm not looking per se, but always have my eyes/ears available to new opportunities.

I spoke with a highly regarded resume writing company that also does LinkedIn work as well.....it all sounded great, but the price for the pros is not inconsequential. I'm still considering it, because I think it would be a great idea to update everything (been with my current company for almost 7 years). And I'm happy where I work, outside of pay. 

Our pay isn't competitive with others in the tech area, however, when you saw Shopify/Microsoft/Amazon, etc laying off tens of thousands, we laid off 50 and got them jobs in other companies inside the corporate umbrella. So I'm hesistant to chase money. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
8/24/23 12:21 p.m.

In reply to BrandonRichards :

Next time, you should have the AI write you a post about how canoes are useful in selling things.  Here, I made one for you (Google Bard AI):

No matter how you choose to use canoes in your marketing, make sure that it is relevant to your target audience and that it fits with your brand image. By doing so, you can create a successful marketing campaign that will help you to sell more products.

Here are some additional thoughts on the use of canoes in selling products:

  • Canoes are associated with adventure, freedom, and the outdoors. This can make them a great way to market products that are also associated with these things, such as camping gear, outdoor clothing, and travel gear.
  • Canoes are also a relatively niche product. This means that if you can reach people who are interested in canoeing, you are more likely to be successful in selling your products to them.
  • Canoes can be used to create a sense of community. This can be helpful if you are trying to build a loyal customer base. For example, you could sponsor a canoeing team or club, or run a canoeing meetup group.

Overall, canoes can be a valuable tool for marketing products. By using them in a creative and strategic way, you can reach your target audience and sell more products.

759NRNG
759NRNG PowerDork
8/24/23 3:50 p.m.
aircooled said:

In reply to BrandonRichards :

Next time, you should have the AI write you a post about how canoes are useful in selling things.  Here, I made one for you (Google Bard AI):

No matter how you choose to use canoes in your marketing, make sure that it is relevant to your target audience and that it fits with your brand image. By doing so, you can create a successful marketing campaign that will help you to sell more products.

Here are some additional thoughts on the use of canoes in selling products:

  • Canoes are associated with adventure, freedom, and the outdoors. This can make them a great way to market products that are also associated with these things, such as camping gear, outdoor clothing, and travel gear.
  • Canoes are also a relatively niche product. This means that if you can reach people who are interested in canoeing, you are more likely to be successful in selling your products to them.
  • Canoes can be used to create a sense of community. This can be helpful if you are trying to build a loyal customer base. For example, you could sponsor a canoeing team or club, or run a canoeing meetup group.

Overall, canoes can be a valuable tool for marketing products. By using them in a creative and strategic way, you can reach your target audience and sell more products.

Air Cooled, excellent  

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
8/25/23 10:16 a.m.

How about frustrations in hiring?  I need another hygienist, as sadly, my lead hygienist suddenly passed away.  Ads out on all the relevant boards/places.  All the benefits listed, 4 day work week, good compensation package.  NO inquiries.  NONE!  I've been having some temps work for me and luckily one of them is interested but holy moly...

Scotty Con Queso
Scotty Con Queso UltraDork
8/25/23 10:19 a.m.

In reply to docwyte :

Have you put a realistic salary range in the posting?  Not one that is "$50 - $500,000 depending on experience."  My industry has a really hard time hiring and retaining construction inspectors.  Put a general ad out and it's crickets.  Advertise that you're going ot pay someone $5-10/hr more than anyone else around here, and suddenly there's a stream of well qualified folks ready and willing to work for you. 

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 PowerDork
8/25/23 10:46 a.m.
Scotty Con Queso said:

In reply to docwyte :

Have you put a realistic salary range in the posting?  Not one that is "$50 - $500,000 depending on experience."  My industry has a really hard time hiring and retaining construction inspectors.  Put a general ad out and it's crickets.  Advertise that you're going ot pay someone $5-10/hr more than anyone else around here, and suddenly there's a stream of well qualified folks ready and willing to work for you. 

This! I had applied to a job that had a salary range of $55k from the lowest to the highest. That's a large swath of real estate IMO and I got the offer and they told me the position was only budgeted to the lowest number of that range. They gave me an offer that was lower than the range listed on the requistion and told me "it was a generic job posting to generate interest" and I promptly declined. 

I ended up accepting a full WFH position in a salary range that works for me. It's a bit of pay cut but the flexibility in my life to work wherever is convenient for me trumps the loss of income. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/25/23 12:21 p.m.
Scotty Con Queso said:

In reply to docwyte :

Have you put a realistic salary range in the posting?  Not one that is "$50 - $500,000 depending on experience."  My industry has a really hard time hiring and retaining construction inspectors.  Put a general ad out and it's crickets.  Advertise that you're going ot pay someone $5-10/hr more than anyone else around here, and suddenly there's a stream of well qualified folks ready and willing to work for you. 

If he hasn't, he's breaking the Colorado Pay Transparency Law.  

I suspect doc is smarter than that.

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