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NickD
NickD MegaDork
7/28/21 2:45 p.m.

This popped in the Facebook group about local railfanning that I'm a part of. Apparently some company is making HO scale versions of Mohawk, Adirondack & Northern C425 #2456. Pretty surprising considering the MA&N's relative obscurity

 

https://jrjunction.com/product/10003305-man-c425-2456/

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/28/21 4:35 p.m.

In reply to NickD :

Wow, that's really cool!

NickD
NickD MegaDork
7/29/21 12:05 p.m.

Union Pacific may have the reputation for having big steam locomotives, thanks to their 4-12-2s and 2-8-8-0s and Big Boys, but competitor ATSF absolutely did not berkeley around either. ATSF's early experiments with flexible-boilered 4-4-6-2s and 2-10-10-2s turned them off from articulated engines permanently, but their non-articulated engines were massive. The 2900/3700-series Northerns were the biggest and heaviest in the USA. And then there were the 5011s. ATSF had had the very first 2-10-4, when they had one of their 2-10-2s delivered with a 4-wheel trailing truck in 1918, and then 12 years later ordered another singular 2-10-4, #5000 "Madam Queen". In '38 they ordered another ten built to the same specs as #5000. In 1944, they finally committed to the wheel arrangement and ordered a 25 unit batch of 2-10-4s, called 5011s thanks to #5011 being the first in the class.

These were a physically massive and powerful modern engine. They weighed 1,000,700lbs over 123 feet, 5 inches from stem to stern. In the interest of minimizing fuel and water stops, the 16-wheel tenders were designed to hold 24,500 gallons of water and 7,000 gallons of oil. Timken roller bearings, Worthington 6SA feedwater heater, cast-steel bed with integral cylinders, lightweight rods were among the other features of this awesome locomotive design. They ran on 74" drivers, the tallest ever fitted to a 10-coupled locomotive, and ran at 310psi boiler pressures. Channeling that into 30"x34" cylinders resulted in piston thrusts that generated over 200,000lbs of force, requiring 15" diameter axles to hold up to the force. With 108,961lbs of tractive effort, they were the most powerful 2-cylinder locomotives in the US, and they were just as happy in freight usage as passenger usage thanks to those big drivers. UP's 4-12-2 9000s get a lot of fanfare, primarily due to them being the only 12-coupled engines in the US, but the 5011s were larger, more powerful despite one less drive axle and one less cylinder, and they were much faster.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
7/30/21 9:33 a.m.

A 5011-class throws an oily cloud of smoke up over the quartet of F-units behind it. Since the 5011s were oil-burners, this is rather uncharacteristic. Either the fireman was paid off by a photographer to crank the oil nozzle wide open, or he is "scouring the flues". Oil-fired locomotives would build up carbon deposits in the flues that would prevent transfer of heat, so a fireman would occasionally have to chuck a shovelful of sand into the firebox while the engine was working hard. The strong draft would suck the sand up through the tubes and scour the carbon deposits out of the flues. The carbon would then be blown out of the stack in a huge black plume.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
7/30/21 10:36 a.m.

The 5011s closed out the era of steam on the ATSF. The 2900s and 5011s got lucky in that when they were built during WWII, ATSF couldn't get the nickel steel they had been using on many of their modern steam engines and so wre built with good old-fashioned carbon steel. Post-war, the prewar 5001 class 2-10-4's, 3460 class Hudsons, and the 3765 and 3776 class 4-8-4s all began to develop cracking issues with their nickel steel boilers, to the point that ATSF ordered 25 brand-new carbon steel boilers to retrofit to those engines. Most of those boilers were never actually installed and ended up being scrapped without ever seeing a single psi of steam pressure.

In April of 1953, corporate ordered managers to prepare to eliminate all steam servicing facilities except between Argentine-Clovis, where 101 modern 4-8-4's and 2-10-4's were to handle through freights. By October of 1953, 17 of the 2900's were in service in the Argentine-Waynoka freight pool and four others were assigned to Belen helper duty, with the remaining 9 stored. The belief at that point was that 1953 would end with approximately 50 4-8-4's and 2-10-4's in service. But thanks to a traffic slump and the delivery of 12 A-B-B-A sets of F7's, not a single Santa Fe steamer was in service on the last day of 1953. The Cleburne shop switcher was given the day off so that claim could be made in the annual report). In January 1954, corporate issued instructions that stored steamers were only to be reactivated for emergencies. The delivery of 80 new diesels in 1954 solidified the end of any plans for regular Santa Fe steam action and classified steam repairs ceased in early May with the closure of the Albuquerque shop. Remaining steam would only be revived for seasonal rushes and the Belen helper pool. That first call to duty came in May of 1954, the first of four annual revivals before the final curtain call came (And the leasing of 12 of the 5011's to the Pennsy in April of 1956). 1955 was the last "good" year, with demand enough to even dust off some 2-10-2s for yard duty at Clovis and Amarillo and a handful of Mikes for local service in Kansas.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
7/30/21 10:39 a.m.

A 5011 in passenger service. They weren't strictly designed for it, but they were capable, with those 74" drivers. The next closest in driver size were the KCS, C&O, and PRR 2-10-4s with 69" drivers, and the rest (Central Vermont, Texas & Pacific, CB&Q, etc) thumped along on 63" drivers.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
7/30/21 11:13 a.m.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
7/30/21 11:41 a.m.

Pennsy got a taste of the 5011s in 1956. PRR had a coal-hauling traffic spike on their Columbus-Sandusky division and found themselves short on operating steam power. They had plenty of stored steam engines on the property, but some of them had been parked in the Great Depression and never returned to service, and others were worn out from hard usage in WWII. The Q2 duplexes, PRR's newest and most powerful, had been out of service for the past 2 or 3 years thanks to leaky boilers. PRR was winding down steam operations and wasn't going to overhaul any engines for a brief traffic spurt, so they leased a handful of 5011s from ATSF, who had them sitting around on the deadlines.

The 5011s served alongside PRR J1s, and the crews found that the 5011s could make the Columbus-Sandusky run quite a bit quicker and they were worth a couple extra cars. The J1s were better at starting a train though. With their shorter drivers and lighter piston thrusts, they weren't as slippery as the big ATSF engines. The ATSF engines also introduced a few logistical headaches. For starters, all PRR steam power was coal-fired, while the 5011s were all delivered as oil-burners. PRR had to park a line of tank cars at the Columbus engine facilities and fill them with oil and use those to fill the ATSF engines. The other was that the 5011s was too big for the Columbus turntable. They were several feet too long, and so to be able to turn them, PRR bolted rail extensions, bent at a 45 degree angle, to extend the turntable. The 5011s had to have their tenders run almost dry, and then the rear tender truck was backed onto the extensions.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
8/3/21 9:00 a.m.

Two of Canadian Pacific "Selkirks", their name for a 2-10-4, take a rest at Fields, British Columbia with the Dominion. Despite their 63" drivers, CPR used their 2-10-4s almost exclusively in passenger service, even receiving a batch of semi-streamlined Selkirks later on. 

NickD
NickD MegaDork
8/3/21 10:26 a.m.

One of CP's later streamlined Selkirks, with CP's trademark "beer can" streamlining. A streamlined, 10-coupled locomotive with only 63" drivers was certainly unique. Since their territory was largely pounding through the Rockies, the short drivers weren't a huge deficit.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
8/3/21 10:29 a.m.

Selkirk #5929 assisting a CPR Mikado with an eclectic mix of passenger cars.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
8/3/21 10:30 a.m.

CPR #5931 in a rare freight-hauling shot. Also interesting that it is sporting a boiler tube pilot and not the cast-steel pilot with a drop couple.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
8/3/21 10:34 a.m.

One of the earlier non-streamlined engines at Revelstoke. It has a pilot plow installed, and judging by the way the fireman is looking out the window, they are preparing to back down on a train.

Sidewayze
Sidewayze Reader
8/3/21 9:30 p.m.
NickD said:

Two of Canadian Pacific "Selkirks", their name for a 2-10-4, take a rest at Fields, British Columbia with the Dominion. Despite their 63" drivers, CPR used their 2-10-4s almost exclusively in passenger service, even receiving a batch of semi-streamlined Selkirks later on. 

Field is right at the bottom of "The Big Hill" or the spiral tunnels today.  If you have the pleasure of traveling there and seeing the grade, the reason for the short drivers becomes quite apparent.         

Even with the tunnels, it's still a big grade.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAwdbs-VjmM           

NickD
NickD MegaDork
8/4/21 9:28 a.m.

In reply to Sidewayze :

Yeah, at least they were smart enough not to over-driver the engine like some lines did. And like some lines continue to do. Steamtown for example is restoring B&M #3713, a heavy Pacific with 80" drivers. With 80" drivers, an engine really doesn't start to hit its stride until about 50mph and does not care for grades. The line that Steamtown operates over (or rather, operated over, since it's been 9 years since they did an excursion) has some rather stiff grades and a speed limit of 25mph. Steamtown would have been better off reviving one of the low-drivered freight engines that they have kicking around, like Illinois Central #790 or Rahway Valley #15, rather than the B&M #3713.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
8/4/21 9:36 a.m.

The Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington Railway is gearing up for their summer picnic next weekend and has gathered all five of the surviving Maine 2-foot locomotives together. From left to right they are Bridgton & Saco River #8, Bridgton & Saco River #7, WW&F #9 in its original Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes #6 appearance, Monson Railway #4 and Monson Railway #3. Monson #3, B&SR #7 and WW&F #9/SR&RL #6 are all operational and will be operation for the Summer Picnic. It'd be fun to attend but the tickets are sold out.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
8/4/21 10:55 a.m.

Some excellent photos taken from the WW&F's Facebook page. They ran a photo charter with B&SR #7  and WW&F #9 recently.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
8/4/21 10:57 a.m.

They also posted a photo of WW&F #9 crossing the Trout Brook Bridge for the first time since 1933! The bridge leads into the Mountain Extension, which they plan to open to the the public next year. They are also progressing nicely on the construction of the new engine house as well.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
8/4/21 1:00 p.m.

While I can't make the WW&F Summer Picnic, I am considering taking this trip on the Reading & Northern:

"The National Museum of Industrial History is proud to work with the Reading & Northern Railroad to host this special train ride one day before the start of the Society for Industrial Archeology's 49th Annual Conference. The day-long trip will depart Outer Station in Reading, PA, with guests riding aboard a pair of open window Budd RDCs (self-propelled Rail Diesel Cars).

The train will make its first stop at a facility rarely seen by the public, the Reading & Northern Railroad steam shop in Port Clinton, PA. Attendees will get an up-close look at the operational restoration currently underway on steam locomotive 2102. This 4-8-4 type locomotive weighs 441,300 pounds and was built to operate in the anthracite region served by the Reading Company.

Further north, passengers will again disembark in Tamaqua, PA to see a variety of sites including the Tamaqua Tunnel Railway, a privately owned two-foot gauge railroad with approximately 250 feet of track. Inspired by the Chicago Tunnel Company freight tunnels, the operation features two electric mine locomotives and several cars which lead from a back yard to a short stretch of track under the owner's home. Additional guided tours will showcase the Tamaqua Historical Society, Hegarty Blacksmith Shop, and the railroad equipment displayed outside the 1874 train station,

Back on board, the trip will diverge from the main line and travel rare mileage through the 3,411-foot-long, 159 year old Buck Mountain Tunnel where coal seams pierced by the tunnel will be seen with bright lights shined through the open train windows. A photo run by will occur at the ventilating fan houses at the east end of the tunnel. The train will continue past Reading Anthracite coal mining operations before stopping at Girardville, PA. A ten-minute walk will bring visitors to the Hibernian House where Joe Wayne will show visitors artifacts related to his great-grandfather and former owner of the tavern, Jack Kehoe. Wayne helped clear Kehoe's name a century after he was hanged for being the alleged ringleader of the Molly Maguires, a secret society that used murder, explosions, and assaults to fight against coal companies for Irish-American mine workers."

Sounds like a very cool trip over some rare mileage, and getting access to the steam shops and seeing the progress on #2102 sounds awesome. It's just a little disappointing that the trip is with RDCs. If it was behind #425 or the F-units, I would be buying a ticket right now, but RDCs are a little underwhelming. Also, that weekend I have my friend's bachelor party on Saturday, then I have to get up early Sunday to make the 2.5 hour drive to Watkins Glen International to go autocrossing and I have to be there at 8am. Then, after a day of autocrossing, I would have to leave Watkins Glen to drive the 4 hours down to Reading to spend the night. That's a looooong day.

02Pilot
02Pilot UltraDork
8/4/21 2:12 p.m.

In reply to NickD :

I recognize some of the rolling stock in the WW&F photos from the Maine Narrow Gauge in Portland. I wonder how and when they moved it, as the tracks don't connect, and it was in Portland at the beginning of last year.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
8/4/21 3:18 p.m.

In reply to 02Pilot :

The beauty of Maine 2-foot gauge engines is that they are small enough and light enough that they can be moved on lowboy trailers behind a semi-truck. When I was up there in February, the two B&SR engines and Monson #4 were both on site, as well as a lot of the Maine Narrow Gauge Museum's coaches, because WW&F was storing them for the Maine Narrow Gauge Museum after they lost their indoor storage. Monson #3 was offsite having boiler work done to get it ready for the season.

In reply to NickD :

That sounds like a great trip despite the RDCs. I wish I was close enough to attend. 

I'm thinking we need a GRM group buy on all that narrow gauge equipment in Hawaii. 

NickD
NickD MegaDork
8/5/21 9:12 a.m.

In reply to Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) :

I've seen that listing for the old sugar can train down in Hawaii. $400k for all the locomotives, cars, MoW equipment and even the rails is a good deal. Too bad the shipping from Hawaii would be murderous. And there is no option to leave it where it sits and operate it there. They ran afoul of the old pitfall of not owning their own right of way. Over the years the right of way has been bought up by developers and now they want the train gone so they can build.

02Pilot
02Pilot UltraDork
8/5/21 9:47 a.m.

In reply to NickD :

Once shipping calms down, it should be possible to load that stuff into containers and ship it for a reasonable (for the kind of person who drops $400k on an old train) amount. I can't imagine there's anything over 40ft long.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
8/5/21 10:13 a.m.

In reply to 02Pilot :

True. Just need some modern day Ellis D. Atwood type to swoop in and buy it all up. Unfortunately there seems to be a lack of those types these days. J.J. Jacobson was the most recent equivalent to Nelson Blount or Ellis Atwood or Paulsen Spence or, dare I say, Richard Jensen, and he's been in the ground for a decade. It makes me wonder, how come none of the Bezoses and Musks and Gates of the world are interested in rail preservation? It'd certainly make things a lot easier/faster. Underwriting the $2 million restoration on, say, LIRR #39 would be pocket change to them. No, its usually the small museums and historical societies and non-profits that barely have two nickels to rub together trying to fundraise and scrounge and scrimp and save over two decades to get an engine operational.

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