Help me pick some free computers for work

Ok, not really free.

The key points:

- The theater is writing a grant for upgrading our 20-year-old computer system.
- I'm the only one back working at the theater.  I'm the technical director and I make things; weld, screw, paint.
- Our computers are ancient.  Mine was an old Pentium tower running Vista that I tried doubling the memory and stuffing Win10 on to it, and shortly after fighting with all the drivers and compatibility issues, the HD failed.
- Our backup and file sharing setup is this lovely thing called "Google Drive."  Oy.
- The average age of the board members is 112 years (I'm kidding, but not by much)
- I successfully got the board to write a grant for a complete upgrade.
- we currently have no IT people on the board.  I keep reaching out to a friend but that well is running dry.

So, since I'm the only person working there, the board members haven't had sex since 8-track tapes were in style, and I may or may not know the difference between SATA and IDEE, they asked for my help getting the ball rolling.  I don't need to be an expert.  I don't even need to know what to actually get, I just need to come up with a nebulous idea of what we need before Friday's meeting.  The meeting is to determine if the grant is a viable avenue (versus something like a capital campaign or soliciting a sponsorship from Lenovo or something).  i.e., do we need bigger money than a local charitable grant would offer.

The theater will need:

• 5 or 6 terminals.  There are 5 employees, each with different needs, but in truthfully most current tech should suffice.
  • Exec Director:  Primary uses are research, watching video, listening to audio, spreadsheets, donor software, not usually heavy stuff.  ED's job is 90% phone, but needs a good terminal.
  • Artistic director:  Zoom meetings, hi-res photos and videos, but in reality, mostly normal things that could be done with most computers.  AD's job isn't very heavy on the computing side, but when it's needed, it can't be basic.  We can't have our AD showing up to a production meeting with a broadway producer looking like they're joining from a cell phone.
  • Tech director:  Lots of vector files, CAD, blueprints, audio editing, video editing.  Heavy on the memory and A/V cards.  Display is important, and portability is important.  Laptop/workstation type setup would be nice with touchscreen.  Saves me the need for running between the office and shop, or trying to print out things on 11x17 (the largest our printer will do).
  • Costume designer:  Right now, our CD is super old-school - like he just got a cell phone last year.   All of his designs are hand-sketched works of art, but he's retiring after this season.  I imagine that a new CD might have similar needs to the Tech Director, minus the portability part.  Also, it's hard to attract and hire a new CD if all we're offering is a pencil and a Vista tower.
  • Main office/Manager:  As you can imagine, quick books, accounting, internet, security, financial stuff.
  • The 6th (optional) terminal will get minimal use, but it needs to be like the Camry that you use as a backup vehicle.  Always starts, always works, and does the job.  In the past, this 6th terminal has been used for Box Office, data entry by volunteers, a backup if any one of the office terminals has an issue.
• Some kind of central server for backup and file sharing.  Our kind of work is highly collaborative.  Each of us report budgets for our departments, we all collaborate on putting the programs together from each of our departments' volunteer pool, etc.  Google drive sucks.  I'm tired of emailing multiple people an invoice and then they have to search their mail to find it later.  Our life is currently all about forgotten emails and spreadsheets.  Time consuming and not easy to share/access/cross-edit.
• We also need two iPads.  This will be the only time I specify a platform.  The booth needs Mac.  iOS has buttloads of production software that just can't be found in PC.  There are a few wannabes, but the industry standard is iOS.  So the tech room needs one pad for sound and one for lights.  I know zilch about ipads other than what I've picked up on here.  Old is old, but customizable.  New is new but sealed.  The booth would need some kind of airpod/wifi to make that happen.
• One other thing I would like to convince them to consider.... As I'm remodeling the space, there will be a several displays throughout the theater; one behind the box office counter showing upcoming shows, one behind the bar showing our current local wine selections, and one in the theater (via projector) showing a slideshow of our sponsors.  I currently accomplish this with an A) DVD player and a thumb drive, B) my old laptop set up for two displays and showing a different slideshow on each display, which means running 150' of Cat5 and an HDMI converter... translated, A PITA.
• The other OTHER thing I want them to consider is 6 nodes of cat5 around the space with either a patch panel or a non-TCP/IP switch so that all of this can be done without me on a ladder hanging Cat5 for each show's needs.  "audio is in #3" is a lot easier than "ok, give me a day to run 100' of cat 5 to the corner we need."

In short, I DON'T NEED a super detailed answer.  I don't need "the ED needs a [insert Lenovo part number]" or " I really like my ASUS [insert part number]"

What I'm looking for is ballpark numbers for a new set of terminals and a few upgrades

And if you happen to be in this business, is this something that can be ballparked?  Or... if you're in this business, is this something I can go to the board and say "call this GRMer for a consultation which will cost this number of dollars?"  Anyone want a couch-surfing adventure in Harrisburg, PA to come advise?

General feasibility meeting is Friday evening.  If they deem it feasible, then I need to punt to someone who knows their stuff.

Modern computers are so powerful, you won't really need anything unique, custom, or expensive. I'd probably just look at a couple of the big guys (Lenovo, Dell, HP, ASUS) and see if one jumps out at you that you like. Then contact them to build out what you need. Those companies pretty much all have professional business services. I know Lenovo gives a blanket like 5% off for corporate or school orders.

Also see what kind of professional business services and support each company offers. It doesn't sound like you have special IT needs. Would just want a company that will have a tech sit on the phone with you to walk you through setting up the network so everyone can share the server.

Only user likely to need anything sorta special is the Tech Director. Graphics card, touch screen, business class laptop is going to narrow the field substantially. That will also be your most expensive machine.

You'll want a server with a massive amount of drive space. Solid State Drives (SSDs) have come a long way, but Hard Disk Drives (HDDs) are just fine if you can get more space/$$.

If you've got at least one person wanting a laptop, I'd recommend Lenovo. The Thinkpad remains the toughest laptop available. They're cheaper than comparable Dells and Macbooks, too. I'd call up Lenovo and explain your needs to them for suggestions and a quote.

TL;DR: budget around $750 each for every computer except Tech Director and Costume Designer. TD and CD budget more like $1500 each. If you want Macs, $900 for the general purpose machines. Get Notion to stay organized, don't buy a local server.

I know you said you didn't need specifics, but putting them here to show my work. In general, you need to plan on buying something you're going to be happy with for several years, as pretty much every major component is now soldered to a laptop's motherboard and is non-upgradable ever.  Buy more than you think you need for future-proofing purposes:

For the general use machines and the spare, you don't want to go super cheap, because that will result in an absolutely frustrating experience. Also, if you budget a couple of hundred extra dollars for these machines now you'll be able to get more years of use out of these, as a way of hedging against when you'll get the budget to replace these machines again. I advised my wife's nonprofit to purchase one of these, and it's worked very well as a general office-use machine: Lenovo Flex 5 14" 2-in-1 Touchscreen Laptop - AMD Ryzen 7 4700U - 1080p (costco.com)

For the Tech Director and Costume Designer, you're going to want (as you suspected)  more power, and a dedicated graphics card (as opposed to the onboard graphics that the general purpose machines are packing). Something like this would work well: ASUS 15.6" Republic of Gamers Zephyrus G15 GA502IU GA502IU-ES76 (bhphotovideo.com)

If you wanted to get Macs, the general purpose machines should be base configuration MacBook Airs ($899 normal retail but if you can find yourself a student or teacher you could get academic pricing), and the Costume Designer/Tech Director machines should be 13" MacBook Pros ($1499 for the top config). Note: if you do this, make sure you're looking at the models with Apple M1 chips - the M1s leave the previous Intel processors in their dust like Johnny Tran leaves Jesse behind.

With your stated level of tech expertise, I would advise against getting your own server.  It sounds like your problem is organizing folders in Google Drive, not that files are being saved to "the cloud" instead of a local server. At my company, we do a lot of work in Notion – The all-in-one workspace for your notes, tasks, wikis, and databases., which might be a good solution for being able to find and share what you're working on.  The other big player in this area is Atlassian's Confluence, but I've used both and prefer Notion.

EDIT: forgot about peripherals. Figure on another $300 or so per station for a USB-C capable monitor that can act as a docking station for your laptops, and keyboard/mouse of your choice. Your Costume Designer might want to spend more for better color accuracy.

In reply to szeis4cookie (Forum Supporter) :

He only requested one as a laptop. For practicality, security, and cost, would make sense using a desktop for all the others.

In reply to lnlogauge :

Have you seen desktop graphics card prices lately? Outfitting the Tech Director and Costume Designer with desktops with discrete graphics cards is going to cost more than just buying everyone laptops, just by themselves.  I spent about $500 on parts a new PC over Christmas that would be about right for that use case...but still can't find a reasonably priced graphics card almost four months later.  The graphics card those folks are going to need are currently almost $2k each on eBay, where MSRP should be under $500.

I'd also argue that in a small customer-facing setting like this one, the general purpose computers are going to get pressed into service beyond their normal use cases (event night data entry, membership drives, etc.) IMO, the flexibility that comes from the laptop form factor is going to outweigh any cost concerns here. And even so, that Lenovo is $549 right now from Costco - better pricing on a desktop is going to be pretty hard unless you're going to go used, which I would recommend against here. Remember, there's no IT staff around, so they're going to want to be able to depend on manufacturer support (or Costco extended support).

If you want your own server, over the longer run the cost of the server is likely going to be overshadowed by the cost of care & feeding of the server and potentially the license cost if you're running Windows on it. You could run Linux or another alternative OS on it but you'll then need someone tech savvy enough to look after the server, or pay for someone to check on the server semi-regularly, install patches etc. Plus you still need to back up the server to somewhere. I do have a setup like that at home and because I have too much data to cost effectively back up to the cloud and keep the backups for as long as I want to, I have a fair number of USB harddrives for those backups.

That said, the pretty regular stories of people losing access to their Google account for seemingly inexplicable reasons and then getting nowhere with Google would also make me wary of just dumping documents into Google Drive with no other backups.

Do you have wired ethernet at the theater or is it all WiFi? Usually you'll probably want proper wired ethernet if people are working off a common server, although that also depends on the use case. IME background backups just work better over wired, but they do work over WiFi as well, just usually not as efficiently.

Server-wise, if it's mostly a dumping ground for files and a destination for backups, I think you can get away with a higher end NAS or an entry level server. For example I run a Dell T30 and that works fine, with the one exception that it doesn't take enough disk drives from my liking so there is an upgrade in the future. So there might be a server available for cheap, but it's out of warranty .

Based on a quick look at the Dell website, an entry level server starts at about $500 (which would be roughly the equivalent of mine, although you probably need to budget some extra money for more memory and disks, and of course for the OS if you don't go Linux). A more expandable version would probably run you between a grand and two depending on the specs.

A NAS might be the easier solution as a local file dumping ground, but one with a reasonable number of disks (ie 4 or more) is likely to also run you a grand, plus you're dependent on the manufacturer for OS and security updates (which can be both an advantage and a disadvantage).

Either way, I'd start with figuring out who can look after the various pieces of equipment or if you need someone else to do some of the looking after. For example, there might be an advantage to using Macs for most of the laptops and desktops if you can schlepp them to the Genius Bar if something is wrong with them. But if you have someone who's Windows savvy enough to ensure that all of the laptops are patched every month etc, you might as well go with Windows.

Also, if you'd ask me to scope an IT upgrade like that, I'd probably also look at the rest of the IT infrastructure - ie, what you do for IT security and Internet security in general.

I'm not that far away from you so depending on how urgent this is and if you do get all your questions answered on here or not, I can pop over on a weekend day and see if I can be of more help.

What you are describing is similar to the setup a friend of mine maintains for his sister's real estate business.  This sort of 1099 freelance work is sort of what he does now if you're interested.

In my experience with network servers, I agree you'll probably need someone with some knowledge/experience to keep it healthy. Probably not on a full-time basis, but once in awhile. 

Do you have any prosperous local businesses that do network installs?  I'd knock on some doors and see if they'd be willing to trade some off-lease workstations for a nice big ad in your program this year.

Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

In my experience with network servers, I agree you'll probably need someone with some knowledge/experience to keep it healthy. Probably not on a full-time basis, but once in awhile. 

Agreed, depending on the tasks that get outsourced, the I'd expect the maintenance to run from a few hours a week to maybe a few hours a month.

I second what BoxheadTim says about getting a NAS instead of a server.  They are very easy to set up, will not require the maintenance of a server.  

As far as the rest of the machines go, aside from the people that need horsepower for the graphic stuff any mainstream business type machine will do, though I would steer you toward machines with AMD processors.  They should be cheaper than Intel machines and for the type of work that is going to be done on them faster.

For the Tech person and the CD take a look at Workstation machines, you can get either desktops or laptops.  They will cost more but those are made for the work you are talking about and you should be able to get around the stupid prices being asked for video cards right now.

I have had good luck with Dell Refurb stuff but really any of the big guys business class equipment will serve you well.

This is all great information.

On the NAS/Server part... What is technically the difference other than a Server having its own OS and a NAS doesn't.  I'm ok with a NAS as long as it doesn't create problems.  As long as we can all agree on how to set up file structures, I'm OK with NAS.  Also, as long as we can access the NAS remotely (from home) and have it not be a security issue, that's fine.

In truth, the only reason I was even suggesting desktops instead of laptops was cost.  Desktops are typically cheaper, but I can imagine the ED, TD, and CD benefitting from having laptops.  CD can work from home for some of the process, ED might like to take powerpoints or digital information to lunch meetings, and TD can take it between office/shop.  The AD could benefit from a laptop, but not really.  Maybe just all workstation laptops?  Given the service life of a computer before they become obsolete, should I be concerned with the difference between laptop/desktop?  What I'm asking is... after 3-5 years the laptops will be obsolete and near the end of their service life.  Desktops could be upgraded, but is that really a thing?  After 5 years, will I really be upgrading an old MB and processor with more memory and a better video card, or will we just be writing another grant for new stuff anyway?

The board wants to get the money and then let each employee choose their own.  I tried explaining to them that's not how it works.  I'm trying to get them to hire a person or a company seeing as how I'm currently the most knowledgeable computer person associated with the organization.  That's like saying Hannibal Lecter would be a good anatomy professor because he cuts people open to eat them.

Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

What you are describing is similar to the setup a friend of mine maintains for his sister's real estate business.  This sort of 1099 freelance work is sort of what he does now if you're interested.

In my experience with network servers, I agree you'll probably need someone with some knowledge/experience to keep it healthy. Probably not on a full-time basis, but once in awhile. 

I am interested.  Can you hook us up via email?

1988RedT2 said:

Do you have any prosperous local businesses that do network installs?  I'd knock on some doors and see if they'd be willing to trade some off-lease workstations for a nice big ad in your program this year.

I'm so not a part of that world that I don't even know where to start.... as in, I don't even know what to google to find such a company.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

This is all great information.

On the NAS/Server part... What is technically the difference other than a Server having its own OS and a NAS doesn't.  I'm ok with a NAS as long as it doesn't create problems.  As long as we can all agree on how to set up file structures, I'm OK with NAS.  Also, as long as we can access the NAS remotely (from home) and have it not be a security issue, that's fine.

That really, really requires a VPN, otherwise it will be a security issue. And even a badly set up VPN can be a security issue. That also means that your router/firewall is part of the equation now, because there is a good chance that you'll have to upgrade/replace it with one with appropriate VPN functionality.

BTW, are you on a business Internet connection with a fixed IP address at the theatre? Otherwise a VPN setup that allows you to access files on the server remotely is going to get a tad more annoying.

This is also one where you probably shouldn't DIY. I've built my own VPN server, but I've also got 20+ years experience of futzing about with Internet connectivity. It's not something I'd recommend for an organisation unless you have someone who can support this setup. And if you do, you're pretty much locked into that one vendor.

Hey Curtis, 

Contact me when you go to purchase. I can share some Dell employee discount coupons that go a long way with what you are trying to do. I buy all of my tech from our refurbished site and get the business class products. Haven't had an issue with one for many years. 

Also, Is you theater a 501C or a true business? If it's a 501C, Microsoft charity licensing is very inexpensive and in some cases free.  

In reply to bmw88rider (Supportive Dude) :

I will do that, thank you!

We are a 501(c)3 legit non-profit arts organization based in education.

What kind of NAS should I be considering?  I have a Synology 1-bay at home that I haven't set up yet with an 8TB HDD.

I'm thinking at the minimum a 2-bay; one for use and stuff and one as a backup/copy and archive.  A bigger one seems like overkill unless it ends up being cheaper to get 4 smaller drives compared to 2 larger ones.

Our storage needs might be bigger than I anticipate.  Every show is professionally photographed and he often shoots 500 or more frames and gives them to us as RAW files.  Anything we produce without copyrights (maybe one or two a season) has a DVD made for archiving.  We're starting to produce online content for streaming which will add about a half-hour of 1080p every week. Right now all of that stuff is stored on a stack of DVDs in one of the offices. PDFs, contracts, documents, etc won't take up much space but it will add up.

Two bay NAS with twin 10tb drives?  Am I on the right track?

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/nonprofits

https://nonprofit.microsoft.com/en-us/getting-started

Here is the Microsoft offerings for the non-profits and the second link is how to register. Let me know your EIN as well when you reach out. I'd like to do a nice company matched donations for the theater as well. My niece is in the UT Theater school so I know the value of the arts. 

For the NAS, Plan for the future and not always for today. At least if nothing else, have an additional drive bay especially if you are planning on hosting files there local. Tough to say what the right number is without really looking at how long you are going to host and some other factors. I'm sure you have this info but just in case, 

One minute of video is approximately: 60 MB with 720p at 30 fps. 130 MB with 1080p at 30 fps. 175 MB with 1080p at 60fps.

Few points here - got a bit of experience and done the same thing a few times:

• Buy all laptops, even for "desktop" applications.  Laptops can move, desktops can't.  Get a single 24"ish monitor, real keyboard and mouse per workstation.
  • ASUS laptops are all we run and they are outstanding.
  • Laptops are also a great value for your money
  • Get all the identical models, and get one extra right away if your budget will allow it.  
• Get a gaming laptop for your artsy fartsy folks.  They will run Solidworks just fine, so they should run just about anything.  The difference between a gaming laptop and a purpose built CAD workstation laptop is nil in performance and huge in price.  Like 5x for a CAD workstation laptop from BOXX vs an MSI gaming laptop.  PErsonally had both, MSI is better. 
• How much stuff do you need to store?  If its just photos and excel sheets and word docs, 10tb is an absulute pile of space.  1tb would last forever.  A dual disk Synology NAS would do you great with it configured in RAID 1 and alerts turned on.
• If all you need a VPN for is moving files around and typing in a word doc offsite, consider using Microsoft OneDrive instead.  Its got a lot of benefits that a VPN doesnt have - it can sync between multiple machines, it works through any machine with an internet connection, and it doesnt expose your network the way a VPN does.  Of course, it takes some planning to have the OneDrive work, since sharing files need to be set up to share before you can access them vs a VPN where you can get to any folder remotely that you have access to locally.
  • Why do you need a VPN at all?  Current plan is a bunch of geezers with desktops, if they are not working offsite or from home, what would a VPN be used for?
  • I would advise against using the box-stock Synology VPN - its not very secure.  To run a VPN well, a hardware solution is in order.  

Best of luck to you!

93gsxturbo said:

Few points here - got a bit of experience and done the same thing a few times:

• Buy all laptops, even for "desktop" applications.  Laptops can move, desktops can't.  Get a single 24"ish monitor, real keyboard and mouse per workstation.
  • ASUS laptops are all we run and they are outstanding.
  • Laptops are also a great value for your money
  • Get all the identical models, and get one extra right away if your budget will allow it.  
• Get a gaming laptop for your artsy fartsy folks.  They will run Solidworks just fine, so they should run just about anything.  The difference between a gaming laptop and a purpose built CAD workstation laptop is nil in performance and huge in price.  Like 5x for a CAD workstation laptop from BOXX vs an MSI gaming laptop.  PErsonally had both, MSI is better. 
• How much stuff do you need to store?  If its just photos and excel sheets and word docs, 10tb is an absulute pile of space.  1tb would last forever.  A dual disk Synology NAS would do you great with it configured in RAID 1 and alerts turned on.
• If all you need a VPN for is moving files around and typing in a word doc offsite, consider using Microsoft OneDrive instead.  Its got a lot of benefits that a VPN doesnt have - it can sync between multiple machines, it works through any machine with an internet connection, and it doesnt expose your network the way a VPN does.  Of course, it takes some planning to have the OneDrive work, since sharing files need to be set up to share before you can access them vs a VPN where you can get to any folder remotely that you have access to locally.
  • Why do you need a VPN at all?  Current plan is a bunch of geezers with desktops, if they are not working offsite or from home, what would a VPN be used for?
  • I would advise against using the box-stock Synology VPN - its not very secure.  To run a VPN well, a hardware solution is in order.  

Best of luck to you!

I agree with the gaming machines.  I was looking for a workstation for video/audio editing and ended up with a Republic of Gamers for that exact reason.  It seems like as soon as you add a docking port and call it a work station it adds $1200 to the price tag.  I just bought a $16 USB hub instead.

Will MS OneDrive work if half the computers are Mac?

bmw88rider (Supportive Dude) said:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/nonprofits

https://nonprofit.microsoft.com/en-us/getting-started

Here is the Microsoft offerings for the non-profits and the second link is how to register. Let me know your EIN as well when you reach out. I'd like to do a nice company matched donations for the theater as well. My niece is in the UT Theater school so I know the value of the arts. 

For the NAS, Plan for the future and not always for today. At least if nothing else, have an additional drive bay especially if you are planning on hosting files there local. Tough to say what the right number is without really looking at how long you are going to host and some other factors. I'm sure you have this info but just in case, 

One minute of video is approximately: 60 MB with 720p at 30 fps. 130 MB with 1080p at 30 fps. 175 MB with 1080p at 60fps.

 

Thank you so much.  I will.  The Grant needs to be submitted by end of April and I'm not sure when they award, but they have been pretty good to us in the past.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Yes, there is a OneDrive client for Macs.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I talked to him and unfortunately he has some family obligations that are preventing him from taking on more clients. 

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

Cool.  Gotcha.  I might have a guy here that I can schmooze.

I read thru the specs a few more times and didnt see anything that said "Mac" to me other than the Ipads.  Wondering why the need for a Mac anywhere else other than just Artsy Fartsy = Mac.

Regarding the displays, something no one else has touched on yet, you can do them pretty easy with either a Roku TV or a Roku box for your existing displays.  We went through all the different gyrations of monitors at work until the IT guy just loaded up some slideshow Roku app on our office TVs and let it eat.  A 65" LCD off-Brand Roku TV is under $300 at Walmart right now.  Can't really beat that.