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Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy Dork
5/11/24 12:41 a.m.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

Do you have better sources, better evidence to contradict mine? Or are you asking us to disregard what appears to be the most accurate and corroborated data publicly available because we can't be sure it was free from Hamas influence at the source, and make an evidence-free blanket assumption that the situation isn't that bad instead?
 

Often not citing any sources or making any statements is better than citing bad sources and misinformation. Hamas has lied repeatedly, often about easily verified claims. Remember when they reported a hospital was "bombed," hundreds dead, and it turned out to be a few damaged cars in a parking lot, damaged by a rocket? The internet still remembers. Many of the old, false headlines and stories still pop up at the top of a search. There is a correction way, way down at the bottom, but the headline remains....

CNN Headline Israel Strikes Hospital, possibly hundreds dead

You aren't finding the most accurate and corroborated data. You are finding opinion that backs your preconceived view and you are mistaking it for data. 
 

Fast and loose:  in a reckless or irresponsible manner

There are a number of steps and restraints taken by Israel that challenge the notion that they are reckless. Irresponsible? What if they see their primary responsibility is the defense of their country, or the elimination of Hamas. Should they bear the ultimate responsibility of the safety of Palestinian civilians? At what cost? Looks like there is a lot of room for debate there.   There is also plenty of room to debate whether Israel is doing enough to prevent civilian casualties, or if their level of acceptable civilian losses is higher than most others would find acceptable. But when you start from "fast and loose," it's hard to see that you are open for an honest discussion. 

I'll link a couple opinion pieces about the steps Israel has taken to limit civilian casualties. I don't like to present opinions as fact, these are not facts. But they both do a good job of describing the steps that Israel takes, and tie in well with O2Pilot's article above. Note that even though both of there links essentially describe the same steps, they have radically different opinions about the intent and results of those steps, which I found interesting and why I'm linking opinion pieces. Two very different stories based largely on the same information. 
 


This opinion portrays Israel as the gold standard as far as preventing civilian deaths. It lays out all of the actions taken and concludes that they do it better than anyone before, and the outcome is a result of the challenging circumstances. To me this comes across as too soft, as if all of the efforts completely nullify the results. 

Newsweek- Israel does more to prevent civilian casualties than any other country in history.

This opinion piece shares the same actions that Israel takes, but holds the results as evidence that the actions are insufficient or ineffective. There are some solid arguements made, but I feel many of the statistics are misleading. For example, comparing the rate of civilian deaths with those of other conflicts. They compare this conflict with the US in Afghanistan. But if I were Israel, my response to that is that we have no intention to fight for 20 years and not win, so any comparison is moot. 

Just Security Opinion on Israeli Civilian Harm Mitigation

I think the truth is somewhere between the two, but both are solid starting positions for debate. 
 

To be fair, there is plenty of pro Israel misleading info out there too. I heard a radio host spout stats showing how Israel's civilian to combatant death ratio is among if not the lowest in history. They claimed 2 to 1- not sure where they even got that number- and then compared it with the previous 100 years or so of wars all lumped together. Yes, they averaged WWII with Iraq as if they were similar, to make Israel look low in contrast. Wow. So I'm not just picking on you or your sources, just pointing out that we all should be much less trusting of any sources. 

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
5/11/24 3:08 a.m.

Any number of words can be said, but that will not change the optics of parts of Gaza looking like Dresden after the Allied bombing. But if you look at practically every engagement in Israel during the last 80 years, the victim count is wildly disproportionate. So this isn't so novel. 

johndej
johndej UltraDork
5/19/24 10:33 p.m.
aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
5/19/24 11:20 p.m.

In reply to johndej :

It's Looking like he is gone.  Not sure what this means for Iran.  I suspect there is another "like thinker" in line to take his place, but it does create a potential opening...

Iran state TV says there is "no sign of life" at the crash site of a helicopter that was carrying President Ebrahim Raisi and Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amir-Abdollahian

Reports say the helicopter - one of three travelling in a convoy - made a "hard landing" on Sunday after it got into difficulties in heavy fog in the north of the country

Israel is also reporting they have found 50(!?) road size  tunnels connecting Rafah to Egypt (that number seems high, maybe a misquote?).  I would be curious to know where these tunnels exit in Egypt since Egypt has fortified the boarder wall with Gaza and that boarder area is rather sparely populated and primarily consists of destroyed buildings.  Not sure from when, maybe from the 6 Day War in 1967?  Which is where Israel got Gaza from (yes it used to be part of Egypt)

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
5/19/24 11:40 p.m.

Some perspective:

Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei wields ultimate decision-making authority in Iran, but Raisi still holds significant power within the regime. Raisi is the deputy chairman of the Assembly of Experts, a regime entity constitutionally responsible for monitoring the supreme leader and selecting his successor.[8] Iranians re-elected Raisi to serve as a representative of South Khorasan Province in the Assembly of Experts during the recent March 2024 Assembly of Experts elections.[9] Raisi also holds numerous ex officio positions. He is a member of the Expediency Discernment Council and the chairman of the Supreme National Security Council, Supreme Cultural Revolution Council, and Supreme Cyber Space Council.

Raisi’s death would have serious implications for supreme leader succession. Raisi is considered one of the top contenders—along with Khamenei’s son, Mojtaba Khamenei—to succeed Khamenei as supreme leader. Khamenei appointed Raisi to the position of judiciary chief in 2019 and endorsed Raisi during the August 2021 presidential elections.[10] The next several days have the potential to reshape the immediate and long-term dynamics of the regime, including supreme leader succession. Raisi’s death would ultimately not change the regime’s current trajectory toward more hardline and conservative domestic policies and more aggressive regional policies, however.

02Pilot
02Pilot PowerDork
5/20/24 7:29 a.m.

The Iran situation appears to be a simple accident at this stage, more because there is little that I can see being gained by anyone as a result of the deaths of the president and foreign minister. The only possible candidate for plotting it would be Khamenei's son, who was the rival succession candidate; I don't know what his standing or leverage within the country might be, so it's only a guess.

I'm sure the Iranian regime will spin it for maximum advantage in reinforcing their messaging, but I don't think there's much to expect from this beyond the funerals.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltimaDork
5/20/24 8:43 a.m.

In reply to 02Pilot :

They're already spinning it; in an article I read this morning Iranian representatives are blaming US sanctions for the poor state of repairs of Iranian aircraft. The chopper in question was apparently a Bell 212, the twin Huey. 

According to Iranian Constitution, the first VP now takes control, with elections to be held in 50 days. I'm completely confident those elections will be the most free, fair, and open elections in Iran's history, without a chance of outside interference. At all. 

jmabarone
jmabarone HalfDork
5/20/24 9:47 a.m.
volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to 02Pilot :

They're already spinning it; in an article I read this morning Iranian representatives are blaming US sanctions for the poor state of repairs of Iranian aircraft. The chopper in question was apparently a Bell 212, the twin Huey. 

According to Iranian Constitution, the first VP now takes control, with elections to be held in 50 days. I'm completely confident those elections will be the most free, fair, and open elections in Iran's history, without a chance of outside interference. At all. 

Oh, you're right about that.  All the interference will be inside

jmabarone
jmabarone HalfDork
5/22/24 11:45 a.m.

(It's satire)

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa MegaDork
5/22/24 11:51 a.m.
jmabarone said:

(It's satire)

Satire or not, the phrasing is... unfortunate 

jmabarone
jmabarone HalfDork
5/22/24 12:00 p.m.
Mr_Asa said:
jmabarone said:

(It's satire)

 

Satire or not, the phrasing is... unfortunate 

Yeah, I realized after the fact that it names a specific religious group.  If this is too far, I'll delete.  

EDIT:  edited the picture

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa MegaDork
5/22/24 12:13 p.m.

In reply to jmabarone :

Nah, its more how it names that group.  If it had said something like "Jewish leaders" or "Jewish Scientists" or something like that it would be less teeth scrapey, but still a bit... eh.

"Israeli government" would be best.

As it is "Jews" tends to feel a little like a dogwhistle.  Just as certain groups might view ACAB or MAGA a certain way, certain other groups view that word being used as a noun a certain way that using its adjective form doesnt attract.

 

If that made sense.

jmabarone
jmabarone HalfDork
5/22/24 12:33 p.m.
Mr_Asa said:

In reply to jmabarone :

Nah, its more how it names that group.  If it had said something like "Jewish leaders" or "Jewish Scientists" or something like that it would be less teeth scrapey, but still a bit... eh.

"Israeli government" would be best.

As it is "Jews" tends to feel a little like a dogwhistle.  Just as certain groups might view ACAB or MAGA a certain way, certain other groups view that word being used as a noun a certain way that using its adjective form doesnt attract.

 

If that made sense.

I fixed it.  I hear you on it though.  From the group it came from, I can almost guarantee their intention was not to throw shade at Jewish people as a whole.  

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
5/22/24 12:38 p.m.

This one might be a bit better anyway:

A French-language Israeli channel has been mocked on social media for reporting that a Mossad agent named "Eli Kouptar" was behind the fatal helicopter crash in Iran on Sunday, which killed President Ebrahim Raisi.

https://www.newarab.com/news/eli-kouptar-israeli-channel-falls-joke-about-raisi-crash

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