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Chadeux
Chadeux Dork
8/9/17 12:16 p.m.

So I got looking more last night and decided I didn't want to further bomb the other thread with dumb questions. It looks like I have a lot of parts to build something here, but it's going to be way on the "untraditional" side of a cycle kart. Basically I'm looking at taking my Kawasaki Bayou, removing the current engine/trans, stretching the frame, retaining pretty much all of the current brakes and suspension, then wrapping it in a body that looks like this.

Basically the only part I haven't decided I have a workable answer for is the drivetrain. I want to retain the rear axle from the Bayou, but the engine I have is probably locked up and is a low revving/low geared utility ATV setup. The Kohler twin was mentioned in the other thread but that's still bolted up to a perfectly fixable generator.

Oh, I'd also need to find either wheels that bolt up to these hubs, or tires that fit on these wheels and don't look reasonable on a thing that looks like an old race car.

This is what I'm starting with because I don't think it's worth fixing anymore and it's getting scrapped either way at this point, so I lose nothing by cutting it up.

(Mine looks way worse than that and is missing all of it's plastic already)

Chadeux
Chadeux Dork
8/9/17 12:47 p.m.

Looking at it some more, It seems the simplest way to go about doing this goes back towards traditional. Solid mount the rear axle, this simplifies that drivetrain solution because now the rear driveshaft pretty much ends up becoming a jack shaft for a Predator 212 or whatever single cylinder engine I find cheap first. I'll have to mess with gear ratios on the chain drive there.

The front suspension in it's current form is really tall and the shocks mount to the upper control arms like on an AMC. If the front axle shafts aren't a problem any more I could move them down and add a bracket to the lower control arms. Or build a solid axle using these steering parts, uprights, and shocks.

Still staying with the 60s Indy roadster look though because the tire size I have to work with looks more reasonable on that style car and it looks cool in general.

RossD
RossD MegaDork
8/9/17 12:52 p.m.

This is kind of a cross between a cyclekart and a new class of vehicle I'd call Formula ATV.

Chadeux
Chadeux Dork
8/9/17 1:02 p.m.

Eventually I'm going to bail on this version of the idea because the axles really aren't wide enough to look right proportionally and tire selection is the opposite of cheap.

failboat
failboat UberDork
8/9/17 1:03 p.m.

Are golf cart tires the answer?

Chadeux
Chadeux Dork
8/9/17 1:08 p.m.

In reply to failboat:

Maybe but I don't think the wheels will fit over the rear drum brake. I think the 4 lug bolt pattern is also different. These are also 11 inch wheels which as far as I can tell are unique to ATVs

Zomby Woof
Zomby Woof PowerDork
8/9/17 1:14 p.m.

Top pic reminded me of this

Maybe I should build that for the challenge

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 UltimaDork
8/9/17 1:14 p.m.

Subbing so i can come back to read it later

Robbie
Robbie GRM+ Memberand UberDork
8/9/17 1:20 p.m.

Can you flip the a arms so the upper becomes the lower? Then you still have the shock mount but it is in the right place.

Otherwise you could probably do a transverse leaf spring in the front.

Chadeux
Chadeux Dork
8/9/17 1:25 p.m.

Looks like I'd have to make a mount either way. Though it does look like one would end up with a better camber curve with the shorter arms at the top. Not that matters much on this contraption.

fanfoy
fanfoy Dork
8/9/17 2:02 p.m.

I have build a lot of scale replica of old cars and if you want something that looks good, you have to start by determining the scale and the necessary wheel size.

You'll need some sort of CAD drawing if you look on the cyclekart forum, there are some DWG files of standard components to help you.

After that, unless you have access to a lathe, stick to go-kart parts because adapting ATV part will cost you a lot more than kart parts.

Don't stress for gearing because there are tons of sprockets available.

oldtin
oldtin PowerDork
8/9/17 2:11 p.m.

chassis/upper shock mount looks made to convert to remote/pushrod shocks/springs or single spring/shock in the middle. I imagine cutting it down the middle and lopping off everything above the front a-arm mount as a start - although the rear upper mount could probably work.

Chadeux
Chadeux Dork
8/9/17 2:15 p.m.

In reply to fanfoy:

This thought experiment started as salvaging junk I had here. The more I look at it the more I think just staying traditional is going to be cheaper and easier, and the end product will probably be better at the end.

Still think I'm going to go with the 60s style body because I get to hide the axles and frame inside the body, making the function of those parts more important than how they look. And, again, I think it looks cool.

fanfoy
fanfoy Dork
8/9/17 2:16 p.m.

You could use that front suspension and convert it to a single transverse leaf spring attached to the upper arm. That was a very common setup for cars of that vintage.

edit: What do the front spindles look like?

edit#2: sort of like this:

Chadeux
Chadeux Dork
8/9/17 2:36 p.m.

And here we have the same problem on every 4wd thing that's not going to be 4wd anymore. The axle is what holds the hub together.

Cut probably cut the axles apart to make stubs that hold everything together but its probably not worth it.

I think a better donor for this would be a gas golf cart. They already have the front suspension like you've shown. I'm not buying a gas golf cart for this project though.

fanfoy
fanfoy Dork
8/9/17 2:42 p.m.

Yeah...not an ideal setup.

You can also make your own spindles. It's not very hard to do.

Kart spindles have a few of their own issues like very limited lock and no KPI built in.

Chadeux
Chadeux Dork
8/9/17 2:57 p.m.

In reply to fanfoy:

The normal go-kart drivetrain and leaf spring solid front axle may be what I do here. I liked the trailer wheel suggestion somebody mentioned in the other thread here. Finally just now flipping through the FAQ thread over at cycle kart club.

EDIT: I think I've decided on the car I'd want to clone.

1950 Kurtis Cummins Diesel Special.

Which it looks like is another IFS car. I also feel like I'd need to find a diesel engine to do it justice.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 UltimaDork
8/9/17 4:30 p.m.

Isnt a kohler twin pretty much a diesel?

Chadeux
Chadeux Dork
8/9/17 4:48 p.m.

I mean if you look at it sideways enough...

Chadeux
Chadeux Dork
8/9/17 11:27 p.m.

This rabbit hole lead me to 50s midget racers. And this picture.

I'm sorry but if we go even further down the train of using go-kart parts to using the wheels and tires as well, this gets even easier and cheaper in my worthless opinion. And also results in something that might have decent amounts of both show and go.

Look like this one has the exact wheels I had in mind when I started thinking about this option.

However, If I'm looking at something that already used a shorter and wider tire. Turf saver lawn tractor tires seem like a viable option. I'm thinking you're typical lower end short/wide rear and a taller front.

I still like the cyclekart chassis theory with the solid rear axle and simple go-kart drive train, but if I'm going to primarily be using this on dirt, the larger tire doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. Yes I'm morhping the form a bit to follow the function, which I gather is exactly backwards from the theory of this type of machine, but the function I'm chasing is simply a fun dirt kart.

EDIT: it looks like upon further looking, in period the 40s-50s Kurtis midgets I'm looking at ran on smaller tires, the 2 or 3 I've found on wider tires appear to be ones refitted with more modern wheels/tires. currently digging for what size wheel and tire was common in period so I can plan around that.

EDIT2:

huh, look at that, turf saver lawn tractor tires.

EDIT3: So it looks like what would actually be building here is just a replica quarter midget. Which I'm actually completely ok with, but that might leave me out of the whole cyclekart thing we had planned.

Pete Gossett
Pete Gossett GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/10/17 5:50 a.m.

In reply to I know a guy with a Kurtis quarter midget hanging on the wall of his garage. It's definitely child go-kart sized. In fact he got it dirt cheap at a sale because the owner thought it was "just an old go-kart".

So I guess what I'm saying is decide whether a cyclecart or a vintage looking go-kart with body better suits your end goals, then follow that path.

Chadeux
Chadeux Dork
8/10/17 8:13 a.m.

The plan I have in mind now is to come up with wheels that work, build a cyclekart style chassis to works with them, them wrap it in a body that looks like a Kurtis. Drivetrain will probably a Predator 212 and CVT going to a live axle.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 UltimaDork
8/10/17 8:28 a.m.

Id count that as a cyclecart.

Im going for similar era indy car. After i build a functional frame and suspension and drivetrain.

Chadeux
Chadeux Dork
8/10/17 8:58 a.m.

Looking at this picture, I think the 12" trailer wheels that have been mentioned may work. While I'm berking around trying to make the fiberglass body look decent, I might make filler pieces for the wheels that make them look more like these.

EDIT: Also looking at that picture, it looks like the older cars had a taller nose, which means more room in the cockpit (on my smaller not front engined version of course), looks like I'm doing a 1946 instead of a 1951.

Chadeux
Chadeux Dork
8/11/17 2:31 p.m.

I think when I get home tonight I'm going to do some more research and come up with a budget on this. I'm going to try to stay under the previously mentioned $500 cap. The biggest single expenses on that are going to be the engine, cvt, wheels and tires. I may still look at using the Kohler but then I have to plan around a much bigger engine than the 212.

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