Beer Baron said:
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
A huge number of cultures around the world have legends of dragons, too. These legends spawned independently of each other. Same thing with vampirism.
Don't you think the Jesus construct contains a lot more information "deviation from randomness" content than dragons or vampires? Born to a virgin, rose from the dead, born on December 25th...that one alone has 1 in 365 odds.
Perhaps we're underestimating the amount of intercultural contact that has occurred historically but if the constructs were formed independently, I think calling them a coincidence is not very realistic.
Here's a sweatshirt...
In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
In reply to RX Reven' :
"Virgin" is a weird one and at the time was arguably at the same time meant "young woman" like "maiden". Also, totally Greco-Roman gods getting young women pregnant.
Being sacrificed, descending into the underworld, defeating death, and being reborn 3 day, weeks, or months later has a long history in Greco-Roman and Egyptian mythology.
Historians say he almost certainly wasn't born on the 25th, that it was coopting the Roman festival of Saturnalia.
The festival of lights and the sun god being sacrificed in midwinter to conquer death is one of those Golden Bough type of repeating mythological stories that has popped up all over the world. Humans have a weird way of coming up with certain repeating ideas all over the world. Lots of people have theorized why humans everywhere have latched onto the same patterns, but no one really knows why.
In reply to RX Reven' :
Children all over the world chant in a Minor 3rd.
All people project faces on inanimate objects.
The 'eye flash' (aka, the 'guy nod') is a universal human gesture.
All languages use variations on "Mama", "Papa", and "Dada" for parents.
Just because something isn't a coincidence, doesn't mean the explanation is supernatural.
In reply to Beer Baron :
I get your point.
As a math guy, I'd find the commonality of dreams that involve falling to be non random given how little time we spend falling while we're awake.
There's probably some cognitive / physiological mechanism driving this...we do after all say we're falling asleep.
Additionally, we're better at turning to the left than to the right so I suspect symbols that contain directionality will curve to the left a statistically significant percent of the time.
In reply to RX Reven' :
All animals have weird idiosyncratic behaviors. My dog tries to burrow into his bed and then spins in a circle three times before lying down. How many human behaviors that we take for granted are just as weird?
1988RedT2 said:
I'd like to propose that we rename this thread "The Lost Sheep Thread." 
But why?
That phrase has a very specific, very Christian meaning. Ignoring the fact that I doubt everyone that has left religion is Christian, at the bare minimum if they've left religion they've left wanting to be labeled with religious meanings.
I don't think I've seen any frivolous responses as to why anyone has left religion in this thread, most of them have been very measured, very thought out reasons. No one that's responded here has become lost, they found a new way. So why label them as if they were going to find their way back some day?
Feels kinda condescending, like its removing indvidual agency from people.
1988RedT2 said:
I'd like to propose that we rename this thread "The Lost Sheep Thread."
Here's the issue, we don't think we are lost, and are ok with it. The other thread was locked because people felt it was their job to "save" others, and judged them for being "lost". There's been 14 pages of listening, not judging, no need to ruin it now.
RX Reven' said:
In reply to Beer Baron :
I get your point.
As a math guy, I'd find the commonality of dreams that involve falling to be non random given how little time we spend falling while we're awake.
There's probably some cognitive / physiological mechanism driving this...we do after all say we're falling asleep.
Additionally, we're better at turning to the left than to the right so I suspect symbols that contain directionality will curve to the left a statistically significant percent of the time.
I don't find dream commonalities to be random either, but it's because scientists have studied the way a sleeping brain releases chemicals in the parts of it that are active during sleep. Every dog I've known runs and barks in their dreams, but I don't think it's necessarily supernatural (although I'm open to the possibility).
Steve_Jones said:
1988RedT2 said:
I'd like to propose that we rename this thread "The Lost Sheep Thread."
Here's the issue, we don't think we are lost, and are ok with it. The other thread was locked because people felt it was their job to "save" others, and judged them for being "lost". There's been 14 pages of listening, not judging, no need to ruin it now.
I'm not sure RedT2 was trying to flounder anything, I think they were just commenting on the general timbre of non-religion among many of us who replied.
I had said earlier in the thread that I felt like the lost sheep who strayed only to find that the wolves were just a fairy tale.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
Steve_Jones said:
1988RedT2 said:
I'd like to propose that we rename this thread "The Lost Sheep Thread."
Here's the issue, we don't think we are lost, and are ok with it. The other thread was locked because people felt it was their job to "save" others, and judged them for being "lost". There's been 14 pages of listening, not judging, no need to ruin it now.
I'm not sure RedT2 was trying to flounder anything, I think they were just commenting on the general timbre of non-religion among many of us who replied.
I had said earlier in the thread that I felt like the lost sheep who strayed only to find that the wolves were just a fairy tale.
In a way, I think it speaks to how religion in general shapes a language, like any other part of a culture. I didn't think a thing of it until it was pointed out.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
I don't think he was intentionally trying to flounder it, just didn't want to see it get off track.
Duke
MegaDork
3/29/22 9:44 p.m.
As I said in the other thread, "arrogant and condescending", whether consciously or not.
I thought it was good natured, sarcastic ribbing.
I am secure enough in my understanding of myself and the world that I'm more inclined to laugh at how the "lost sheep" characterization is opposite of my experience.
Having embraced the idea of uncertainty, and that it's up to me to create meaning for myself, I feel like the opposite of the lost sheep. I feel like the norm is to stay as part of a herd or flock for fear of becoming lost in the woods. But staying so close to the flock you really only know that you're moving the same direction the flock is. You don't actually know where you're going or what's around you.
Straying from the flock may at first feel like being lost, but in reality you have no less understanding of the world you inhabit than you did before. You just open your eyes to how little you used to know. Then you get used to it, and begin to actually learn to find your way and orient yourself in the big wide woods. Eventually this understanding grows to realizing just how big the woods are, that you will *never* be able to know the layout of everything. This gets scary again for a bit, but finally transforms one more time to realizing how freeing it is to not *need* to know everything. My incomplete map of the woods I inhabit is still enough.
We are never really lost until the wolf shows up and the border collie and the rest of the flock are nowhere to be seen.
Duke
MegaDork
3/30/22 9:07 a.m.
Beer Baron said:
I thought it was good natured, sarcastic ribbing.
That is a third possibility. I hope it is. That, I don't mind.
Beer Baron said:
Straying from the flock may at first feel like being lost, but in reality you have no less understanding of the world you inhabit than you did before. You just open your eyes to how little you used to know. Then you get used to it, and begin to actually learn to find your way and orient yourself in the big wide woods. Eventually this understanding grows to realizing just how big the woods are, that you will *never* be able to know the layout of everything. This gets scary again for a bit, but finally transforms one more time to realizing how freeing it is to not *need* to know everything. My incomplete map of the woods I inhabit is still enough.
For many people, having AN ANSWER is far more important than the best available understanding we have right now.
Duke
MegaDork
3/30/22 9:13 a.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:
We are never really lost until the wolf shows up and the border collie and the rest of the flock are nowhere to be seen.
But what if there never really was a sheepdog? Just a scared flock that really hoped there was?
Or what if there never really was a wolf, and the sheepdogs were just using the idea of a wolf to keep the sheep all nicely bunched up and under control?
In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
Not only am I not lost, I'm not alone either. There are lots of us other goats in the forest. We still join up, move together, and work toward the common good. The thing is, I'm actively choosing to use my independent agency to work with other like minded individuals. We just aren't part of a flock that moves us along based on consensus that no one is in control of (or worse, that a few people are). If my pod of choice is headed for a bramble patch, I can see it and say, "Nope, I'm not taking part in that," rather than being pulled along by groupthink.
In reply to Duke :
If you didn't care what happened to me, and I never cared for you. We could slip slide away through the boredom and pain, occasionally glancing up through the rain, and watching for pigs on the wing.
I am talking about border collies. What are you guys talking about? 
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:
We are never really lost until the wolf shows up and the border collie and the rest of the flock are nowhere to be seen.
Or if you find out the border collie was in cahoots with the wolf all along...
