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Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/12/22 10:57 p.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Oh man, don't get me started on AA... It's a racket and a scam and it actively hurts the participants. 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
4/13/22 5:29 a.m.
Teh E36 M3 

Isn't that what the Unitarian church is for? I believe I'm still a Unitarian pastor, after sending away for the title. 

I guess if they are universalists. Never paid much attention, I only ever went to their basement. Thats where the action is. 

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/13/22 7:13 a.m.
Beer Baron said:
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

Well... in my case, it goes back to that "mistakes were made..." comment in the other thread.  But vaguely put, consider what may seem magical and supernatural is merely a matter of perspective of technology and knowledge. Humanity as a species is barely in infancy. We don't "know" anything. 

This is why I find gnosticism more offputting than theism.

It's not difficult to find anything in these discussions off-putting. And there is absolutely nothing "gnostic" about my comment. I'm only suggesting there may be other options not among the four shown in that chart.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/13/22 8:00 a.m.
Javelin said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Oh man, don't get me started on AA... It's a racket and a scam and it actively hurts the participants. 

*shrug* It helped my grandfather.  He took me to meetings until I went to school.  I'd sit there reading Road & Track or something and I still remember what it sounds like when a large room full of chain smoking coffee drinkers mumbles out The Lord's Prayer.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
4/13/22 8:03 a.m.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

This is why I find gnosticism more offputting than theism.

It's not difficult to find anything in these discussions off-putting. And there is absolutely nothing "gnostic" about my comment. I'm only suggesting there may be other options not among the four shown in that chart.

Not possible, there is a CHART!

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
4/13/22 8:52 a.m.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:
Beer Baron said:
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Beer Baron :

Well... in my case, it goes back to that "mistakes were made..." comment in the other thread.  But vaguely put, consider what may seem magical and supernatural is merely a matter of perspective of technology and knowledge. Humanity as a species is barely in infancy. We don't "know" anything. 

This is why I find gnosticism more offputting than theism.

It's not difficult to find anything in these discussions off-putting. And there is absolutely nothing "gnostic" about my comment. I'm only suggesting there may be other options not among the four shown in that chart.

Dude, I was *agreeing* with you. "Gnostic" means that you believe you can and do "know" with absolute certainty.

Your comment wasn't gnostic. Your comment echoed why gnosticism unsettles me. On many topics - particularly these ones of faith - there is no way of us knowing with absolute certainty. So when someone says they do know things with absolute certainty, I find it offputting. Not only is it fundamentally wrong, but it also prevents further discussion.

I'm saying that, as someone who could be classified as "agnostic atheist", I'd rather have a theological discussion with an "agnostic theist" than a "gnostic atheist". I have no issues talking with people who believe in a God. I have issues discussing theology with people who are so absolutely certain in their belief of God that they are incapable of comprehending why someone else would believe anything different.

I feel the same way about people who are firmly entrenched in political beliefs.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
4/13/22 8:58 a.m.
Javelin said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Oh man, don't get me started on AA... It's a racket and a scam and it actively hurts the participants. 

I don't think that's entirely true.  I think it helps tons of people.  But I also think it doesn't work for many people (religion being one of the reasons).  I think its held up by society as the solution though.

 

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/13/22 9:12 a.m.
ProDarwin said:
Javelin said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Oh man, don't get me started on AA... It's a racket and a scam and it actively hurts the participants. 

I don't think that's entirely true.  I think it helps tons of people.  But I also think it doesn't work for many people (religion being one of the reasons).  I think its held up by society as the solution though.

I will pull the studies up on the statistics of how it hurts, it's one of the things we as counselors get trained on.  It's not the faith based aspect that's the problem, it's the complete lack of personal responsibility. Telling people that they aren't responsible for their own choices is hugely damaging, especially when it comes to substance abuse. Then there's the racket part where they managed to get installed as the de facto treatment ordered by courts allows the founders to rake in cash with no oversight or ties to empirical data.

TheRev
TheRev Reader
4/13/22 4:03 p.m.
Javelin said:
ProDarwin said:
Javelin said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Oh man, don't get me started on AA... It's a racket and a scam and it actively hurts the participants. 

I don't think that's entirely true.  I think it helps tons of people.  But I also think it doesn't work for many people (religion being one of the reasons).  I think its held up by society as the solution though.

I will pull the studies up on the statistics of how it hurts, it's one of the things we as counselors get trained on.  It's not the faith based aspect that's the problem, it's the complete lack of personal responsibility. Telling people that they aren't responsible for their own choices is hugely damaging, especially when it comes to substance abuse. Then there's the racket part where they managed to get installed as the de facto treatment ordered by courts allows the founders to rake in cash with no oversight or ties to empirical data.

I would be very interested in reading those studies since AA, NA, and similar programs are the de facto "next steps" for recovering addicts in our community, some of whom end up coming to our charity for help. I'd also like anything evidence-based you've found on better programs or protocols to help former addicts that are already through detox and/or rehab, and looking for long-term accountability, support, or assistance to stay clean. We've had some clients who stayed clean long term and some who fell back (especially during the pandemic). I'd love to know the best options, based on evidence, for improving those odds. Thanks!

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