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Wally
Wally GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
5/15/11 1:27 a.m.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/05/14/2011-05-14_volkswagen_crash_at_queensboro_bridge_leaves_2_injured_third_vw_crash_at_same_sp.html

A Volkswagen flew off a dangerous Queensboro Bridge exit ramp Saturday morning, injuring two people in the same spot where two other Volkswagen crashes have occurred in the past two months, police said.

The two male passengers suffered minor injuries when their gray Volkswagen GTI hatchback caught air off the bridge exit ramp about 6 a.m, accordingt to cops.

The hatchback slammed into a concrete barrier and skidded into a second, which the city Department of Transportation recently installed as a safety measure following the two previous crashes, which left a man dead and two others hurt.

After plowing through some scaffolding, the totaled hatchback landed atop a livery cab, witnesses said.

Two months ago, same building:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/double_whammy_0iF3U2Rd15pkcyvmxKYnGN

In a chilling echo of a tragedy less than two weeks ago, a horrific high-speed crash severed the left arm of a Volkswagen driver who lost control on a Queensboro Bridge exit ramp yesterday -- and store owners whose shops were smashed in both incidents are demanding the city quickly fix the "death trap" site.

The early-morning crash left the 2006 Volkswagen Jetta's passenger, Beatriz Rodriguez, 40, clinging to life with severe head trauma -- just nine days after the wee-hour smash-up of a 2007 Volkswagen Rabbit that killed 68-year-old pedestrian Anthony Buscemi.

Palacio's Jetta crashed into the front of two businesses on Queens Plaza South near the corner of Crescent Street - Villa de Beaute hair salon and Espinal Caribbean Restaurant II.

Narinber Singh, who owns a nearby cafe and rushed to the scene after the crash, said, "I came and they were pulling people out of the car, a girl and a guy. The guy was just screaming."

And two weeks before that, same stores:

A car coming off the Ed Koch Queensboro Bridge jumped a curb and killed a 68-year-old cabbie on the way to pick up his taxi in Queens early Monday, cops said.

Anthony Buscemi was on the sidewalk in front of the Villa de Beaute hair salon in Long Island City about 4 a.m. when a car veered from the off-ramp and struck him, cops said. He died at the scene.

"It was a horror movie - pools of blood running onto the street," said carpenter Yama Dastagirzada, 41, of Far Rockaway, who was the first person to come upon the wreck.

Cops said the 35-year-old driver, Grant Riddell, lost an arm and was taken to Bellevue Hospital. His 31-year-old passenger, Melissa Cohen, was taken to New York-Presbyterian Hospital Weill Cornell. Both were in stable condition and expected to live.

A police source said Riddell tested negative for drugs and alcohol. He lost control of the car, a red four-door 2007 Volkswagen, police said and accidentally struck Riddell, who was walking to the garage to get his taxi to start work.

Toyman01
Toyman01 GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
5/15/11 7:03 a.m.

Probably less to do with the cars and more to do with the people that buy them. Must be a hell of a ramp though.

DrBoost
DrBoost SuperDork
5/15/11 7:49 a.m.

I agree, but you don't see any Miatas flying off there do you

914Driver
914Driver SuperDork
5/15/11 7:53 a.m.

DO NOT get into a Volkswagen! There are rumours going around about a mass suicide pact.

carguy123
carguy123 SuperDork
5/15/11 7:57 a.m.

Proof VWs can't turn.

Lesley
Lesley SuperDork
5/15/11 8:18 a.m.

Uh oh... I'm in Chattanooga in two weeks to drive the new Jetta... wish me luck

Rob_Mopar
Rob_Mopar Dork
5/15/11 8:38 a.m.
Lesley wrote: Uh oh... I'm in Chattanooga in two weeks to drive the new Jetta... wish me luck

That's far enough from the Queensboro Bridge you should be fine. Just be careful on any other bridge on-ramps.

byron12
byron12 Reader
5/15/11 9:08 a.m.

So far I have ony seen one VW upside down in a ditch here in chattanooga just watch out for that hickory valley road.

John Brown
John Brown GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
5/15/11 9:42 a.m.
914Driver wrote: DO NOT get into a Volkswagen! There are rumours going around about a mass suicide pact.

You and me at 12:30, right Dan?

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
5/15/11 9:44 a.m.

I know all the VW stuff is said jokingly, but what are the possible reasons it "MIGHT" be due to the make of car?
Suspension design sucks horribly for that particular style of corner?
ABS going into "ICE Mode" due to nature of that corner?
EFI/Computer/ghost in the machine triggered by the circumstances?
VW FanBoi's more likely to drive stupid around corners?
Car dulls sense of speed?
Car feels more capable than it is?
Firestones?
What are your thoughts?

DrBoost
DrBoost SuperDork
5/15/11 10:08 a.m.

I think it's a combination of VW FanBoi's thinking the car is more capable than it really is, and the fact that it's just a VW Golf. I was only 1/2 or 1/4 joking when I mentioned the lack of miatas' flying off that bridge. I'm sure there are lots of guys thinking they are the next drifting star in a Miata on that same bridge, but the car is more able to pull through.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
5/15/11 10:24 a.m.

Notice 2 of those 3 VW's have bling-tastic aftermarket "rims". Just saying.

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon SuperDork
5/15/11 10:29 a.m.

Maybe they watched this movie too many times? Go to the last minute:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukSGuA_p1GQ&playnext=1&list=PL523013ABD0818131

flexi
flexi New Reader
5/15/11 11:00 a.m.

It could be driver error in all cases. However, it could also be a component failure, or wear in a component that induced poor behavior at the limit of the design. With this small sample of 3, one might infer that the design may not work well on that off ramp, at the speeds that the doomed cars were going. But a sample of 3 out of x,xxx,xxx really isn't statistically significant.

It could be that the suspension design behaves "poorly or surprisingly" under that off-ramp geometry and speed. The failure at the limit behavior apparently was squirrely enough that the drivers did not know what to do.

And it could be that this set of conditions (ramp geometry / speed / suspension loading / stock tires or whatever the true cause is) may not have been accounted for when the DFMEA was done. Or someone in design or quality couldn't even fathom or comprehend that such a set of conditions could ever exist. Sometimes folks can fall into a trap by failing to acknowledge that tough simultaneous conditions can happen. "We've never seen it happen, so it won't." The Japanese Daiichi event comes to mind. If one denies the very existence that something could fail that way, why test or even design for it?

Dunno. In any case, it sure looks like over cooking this particular off ramp with the above cars leads to deadly results. Hope VW and others are looking into it. If I had one of these cars, I'd look into training to become a better driver. Actually the best advice would be for EVERYONE to SIGNUP NOW to get real driver training to become a better driver. Maybe the drivers/passengers and poor bystanders would have survived or been uninjured with better driver skills. Definitely might have improved their odds.

My 2 cents.

gamby
gamby SuperDork
5/15/11 11:11 a.m.
carguy123 wrote: Proof VWs can't turn.

...or proof that here are a lot of VW drivers who over-estimate their driving abilities.

I feel worst for the innocent bystanders who were killed.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand SonDork
5/15/11 11:26 a.m.
Javelin wrote: Notice 2 of those 3 VW's have bling-tastic aftermarket "rims". Just saying.

That's what I was thinking. Also notice the obnoxious tint (which I'll admit I have on the e30, but still). Also notice there were two young male occupants. I bet there's a VW street racing scene or something there.

gamby
gamby SuperDork
5/15/11 1:18 p.m.

The way I see it, if you're getting airborne on offramp, you're doing something galactically stupid seconds beforehand.

Matt B
Matt B HalfDork
5/15/11 1:31 p.m.

Wally, are we going to find out you've been baiting v-dubs on your bus route near off-ramps?

flexi
flexi New Reader
5/15/11 1:39 p.m.
gamby wrote: The way I see it, if you're getting airborne on offramp, you're doing something galactically stupid seconds beforehand.

Seriously. Catching air = no control, unless you have aero control surfaces.

Kind of unusual that so far the documented carnage is VW related. How come no other cars have flown?

friedgreencorrado
friedgreencorrado SuperDork
5/15/11 2:57 p.m.

One thing I've noticed about the local (Atl.) VW scene is that most of the folks in it are not attracted to formal driver training & motorsport. The only guys that are SCCA members are me and my mechanic, and there's a couple more that run NASA PDX. There are a lot of people here that think they're the "tasteful" alternative to the ricer scene (hell, even *I laughed at the "Unpimp Your Ride" ads). From what I've seen at the shop, they shove just as many shiny bits under the hood, but usually spend more time polishing it than learning how to actually use any of it. I could see one of these guys thinking, "..hey, I spent all this money, let's see what it can do!"

That attitude may be nationwide..I know it's why I stopped posting on vwvortex and came over here. "Man, I just bought new coilovers!" Cool, how's your cornerweights? "Huh? What's that?"

Salanis
Salanis SuperDork
5/15/11 6:07 p.m.

Car Talk has noted and apparently attempted to document that Jetta drivers are the worst drivers in the country:

http://cartalk.com/content/features/jettadrivers/

I'm partial to this theory:

As a forensic psychiatrist, I too have studied, over the past three years, the erratic driving of many Jetta owners. It is outrageous. I have a theory. I suspect that Jetta drivers are convinced (perhaps by salesmen) that a Jetta is the full equivalent of a Beamer. While in their hearts they know this is not true, they have something to prove to themselves and others. I suspect that this erratic driving is meant to "prove," in its lame fashion, that a Jetta is as good as a Beamer.
Rufledt
Rufledt HalfDork
5/15/11 6:14 p.m.

I'd say it's the VW density. I was stuck in traffic the other day with my Fiancee and we were counting all of the GTI's we saw. 8 MKV's I think in 2 miles, one MKIV, one GLI, and with 1 TDI golf that appeared to have GTI wheels (is that an option or did he just do it?). No other VW's.

More VW's means higher chances one wil be the car that crashes. Also I hear they understeer like mad, so ramps may be a problem. idk

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
5/15/11 6:27 p.m.

from what I know of the local VW/Audi scene.. those guys love to prove their cars are just as capable as a BMW.. so them catching air at some super early time in the morning does not surprise me

Derick Freese
Derick Freese Dork
5/15/11 9:39 p.m.

I got cut off and subsequently followed by a GTi this past Friday. I guess he only likes German cars from German car companies.

GregW
GregW New Reader
5/16/11 6:38 a.m.

I thought you guys were talking about VW beetles. Try taking that, or any other ramp, over 50 mph in a '65 swing axle Bug. It is called trail braking into terminal oversteer.

Could anyone post a picture of the ramp in question. Some have a mid turn bump or pothole that would upset any vehicle.

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