Learn Me Water Heaters

So yeah, I've got an 11 year old gas water heater. It's got to be moved, which means it's got to be replaced.

I'm open to opinions on tankless (gas or electric), traditional electric, or maybe another traditional gas. 

The thing is, I sort of need the space where the current water heater goes. I could see a traditional electric downstairs (venting a gas may be an issue). Tankless would give the space I need, but I firmly believe in the K.I.S.S. principle, and thusly, am leaning to a basic 220 electric in the basement.

Thoughts, observations, and particularly experience are appreciated. 3 bedroom house with two baths, two occupants, but we'd like to overbuild for maybe five guests at a time, without anyone suffering a cold shower. Pretty basic stuff.

Listening. Mine needs to be replaced as it is now 27 years old. 

Although it may a good idea to replace it while you're at it, an 11 year old water heater doesn't necessarily HAVE to be replaced.

Tankless heaters require a LOT of energy to operate, whether they're gas or electric.  I don't know offhand how many BTUs a gas tankless needs, but an electric that's sized for whole house use is typically in the range of 140 amps so your electric service may need to be upgraded.  A gas heater may require upgrading the gas service as well, it's something you'd have to check.  Depending on your water quality, tankless heaters may also require periodic cleaning to remove lime deposits.  They're more expensive to install, and of course more complex (which can mean a greater chance they'll need repairs in the future.)

I'm not saying a tankless heater isn't a good idea for some applications, but you do need to weigh all the pros and cons.

In reply to stuart in mn :

Thanks! That backs up most of my concerns. I just don't think tankless have the development time in that traditional do, and yeah, the energy required to "superheat" the water as it flows, seems extreme.

Several WOT runs in a day vs. idling, with the occasional low rpm run. KISS.

Unless you are building a new house and can plan the plumbing and gas accordingly, don't even consider a tankless gas water heater.  They vent directly to the outside, so you need to place it on or near to an exterior wall where the vent can run to the exterior of the house without interference from windows, electrical service, gas service, air conditioner condensers, etc.  That usually means you will need to rework the water piping so that your hot water isn't running extra miles to get to its destination.  The gas requirement will jump from around 40,000 BTUs to 200,000 BTUs.  That means a new gas main, new gas piping, probably a bigger meter, maybe even a new gas service to the street.  You will need to ask permission from the gas provider to install.  There may not be enough gas on your street to satisfy your requirements.  I know of new developments where these were the norm when the houses were built.  Everybody gets up  and takes a shower on a cold winter morning.  Boilers and furnaces are cranking.  Water heaters are all firing on high.  Not enough gas, and one by one furnaces and water heaters start shutting off and locking out because of insufficient combustion.  To install one in an existing house, you are looking at $3,000 minimum.  Consider an electric hybrid water heater.  They cost about the same to run as a regular chimney vented gas water heater.  They also have the added benefit of conditioning the air in the summer time.  You could probably install a 50 gallon hybrid for $2K.  Most efficient would be to just reinstall a new gas water heater, provided you can keep it close enough to use the existing gas, and water piping and flue vent.  Regular electric is the easy button and least expensive to install, but the most expensive to run.  Where you decide to put the new one is ultimately what will determine what your best water heater option will be.

I've always heard that Bradford-White is the way to go. I ended up putting in the best Rheem they had at Lowes Depot whenver my last one died. So far, so good, but my well water eventually kills them.

What about an indirect water heater?

Depending on the type of heat you have in the house it may be a good compromise. 

If it's easy to run the wiring for it, it's hard to go wrong with a traditional electric water heater.  It's been my experience that gas units heat faster than electric.  

4 years in and I'm pretty happy with my heat exchanger water heater (aka a "hybrid"), which is basically an inverted air conditioner with backup "traditional" electric heating elements.    These things are supposed to be about 50% more efficient than the traditional electric water heater, and was just as easy to install (run 240v wire from breaker.... done.).    They have a secondary effect of drying the air around them, so in our case we don't have to run a dehumidifier in our basement.   The downsides are that they make the air around the cooler because they're sucking the heat out of the air to transfer into the water, but in a basement you'll always have a constant supply of ~64° air, which makes them work reliably. 

My solar guy suggested it, saying that it takes at least one panel to run a water heater, and one panel to run a dehumidifer for a year, whereas this would take one panel and do both jobs.

I have an AO Smith one that I bought from a local plumbing supply house. 

The biggest thing I'd say is to upgrade the size over your propane one, I had a 35 gallon so that's the size of the hybrid I replaced it with and we'll run out of hot water after two long showers or 3 shorter ones.   If the in-laws are coming for a weekend, I'll press the button to turn it to electric-only mode (it automatically switches back after 3 days).     I wish I got the 50 gallon, as it would save me a click once every other month or so.   Next time :)

What is the best  " value for money" electric only water heater for a bathroom with shower and tub?

It's only me in the house when I am here ,

I was thinking a tankless  would be best but do not know if my 220v dryer plug can pull enough amps, 

Thanks for your ideas

So, understanding all the above, who makes an anvil of a waterheater these days? 220, conventional, 50+ gallon, parts available, 20 year unit?

One of the common things said these days about Tankless heaters is whole house designs don't really save you money and often use far more energy than a quality traditional Gas water heater in most situations.

The issue is most of the time you are not using hot water at the full capacity so the heater is on and running full blast to heat a trickle of water at the bathroom sink.  It is using as much energy to heat that water as if two showers were running...    and then to top it off with no limit on how long you can stay in the shower the kids just hang out there running hot water forever.

As a luxury they are great, especially if several of them are used or located very near the fixtures, but in practical application many have seen energy bills increase.

mtn said:

Listening. Mine needs to be replaced as it is now 27 years old. 

With our hard water and lime issue along with using a water softener we only get 5-6 years out of a 40 gallon gas water heater.  This time I bought a 7 year warranty WH.  

wheelsmithy said:

So, understanding all the above, who makes an anvil of a waterheater these days? 220, conventional, 50+ gallon, parts available, 20 year unit?

20 years? I'll wish you luck on that.

In reply to clutchsmoke :

That may be true, but there are some tricks to extend longevity.

One, hook up a hose to the drain, and just let fresh water run through once a year. Let it run for twenty minutes or so.

Also, change your anodes.

tr8todd said:

Unless you are building a new house and can plan the plumbing and gas accordingly, don't even consider a tankless gas water heater.  They vent directly to the outside, so you need to place it on or near to an exterior wall where the vent can run to the exterior of the house without interference from windows, electrical service, gas service, air conditioner condensers, etc.  That usually means you will need to rework the water piping so that your hot water isn't running extra miles to get to its destination.  The gas requirement will jump from around 40,000 BTUs to 200,000 BTUs.  That means a new gas main, new gas piping, probably a bigger meter, maybe even a new gas service to the street.  You will need to ask permission from the gas provider to install.  There may not be enough gas on your street to satisfy your requirements.  I know of new developments where these were the norm when the houses were built.  Everybody gets up  and takes a shower on a cold winter morning.  Boilers and furnaces are cranking.  Water heaters are all firing on high.  Not enough gas, and one by one furnaces and water heaters start shutting off and locking out because of insufficient combustion.  To install one in an existing house, you are looking at $3,000 minimum.  Consider an electric hybrid water heater.  They cost about the same to run as a regular chimney vented gas water heater.  They also have the added benefit of conditioning the air in the summer time.  You could probably install a 50 gallon hybrid for $2K.  Most efficient would be to just reinstall a new gas water heater, provided you can keep it close enough to use the existing gas, and water piping and flue vent.  Regular electric is the easy button and least expensive to install, but the most expensive to run.  Where you decide to put the new one is ultimately what will determine what your best water heater option will be.

In addition, tankless requires a double-wall vent, so you can't just use the existing vent you have if it is direct-vent. 

wheelsmithy said:

So, understanding all the above, who makes an anvil of a waterheater these days? 220, conventional, 50+ gallon, parts available, 20 year unit?

It's  a moving target

 Everyone is racing to the bottom. AO Smith and Rheem are the name brands, bought from a reputable plumbing supply house.Even these have had quality issues lately though.

In reply to TRoglodyte :

I was leaning towards a Rheem from H.D. 50 gal, 220v, nothing special. Right at 400 bucks.

I buy at the plumbing supply because I have an account and know the counter guy, plumbing supplies used to get better quality units but anymore like I said it's a race to the bottom? Probably all the same units now.

wheelsmithy said:

So, understanding all the above, who makes an anvil of a waterheater these days? 220, conventional, 50+ gallon, parts available, 20 year unit?

Rheem/ruud marathon.

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