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ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
11/8/20 8:26 p.m.
Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) said:

He could well be a total dick. I have met more than my share. 

He could also have multiple income streams and employee pay and bonuses are based solely on company income and profit and not on his personal income. 

This.  Company finances != personal finances.  

nutherjrfan
nutherjrfan UberDork
11/9/20 12:02 a.m.

In reply to barefootskater (Shaun) :

I just read that America has approx 20 million millionaires but I've seen lower numbers in a quick Google.

That's impressive and awesome.

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/9/20 5:12 a.m.
aircooled said:
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

After years spent working for privately owned companies of every size & large corporations, the best thing to ever happen in my working life was to get hired by an ESOP company. It's just a completely different mindset. 
 

Granted, part of it is certainly our internal culture that makes the ESOP work well for us, but I expect the two will generally go hand-in-hand for any successful ESOP.  

I personally don't really agree with this.  ESOP (employee stock ownership programs) are a great way for employees in small growing companies (e.g. startups), to share in the growth of the company. In larger companies, they really don't do much. An average employee in such situations have wildly insignificant effect on the stock price and the price does change enough to have a significant income effect.

There of course is a huge downside to a public company.  They are, pretty much by definition, slaves to their stock prices, which very much come before the employees. It can be fine in good time, but hell in bad ones.

I have worked for all three (the third being a latter stage startup) and I can say I am very happy to be out of a large publicly held company and be in a large privately held company.  Fortunately, the owner seems to be a reasonable, good guy. And yes he is very very very wealthy.  He seems to lean towards nice Mercedes type cars rather than exotics though. He could easily afford buying a new Ferrari each day, but that is just not his style.

FWIW we're a ~1300 person national company & have been around for ~40 years. I've only been here 8-years, so I probably won't be able to retire on just my ESOP(unless I work until I'm 80). The stock price consistently climbs each year though, and we do have a 401k too. 

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/9/20 9:58 a.m.
nutherjrfan said:

In reply to barefootskater (Shaun) :

I just read that America has approx 20 million millionaires but I've seen lower numbers in a quick Google.

That's impressive and awesome.

I just looked it up - and you're right, I see between 8 and 22 million millionaires in the US. Really hard to quantify this, as how do you value all of someones portfolio? In any case, I do not think that is impressive. $1M isn't that impressive, unless you're 30 years old. Somebody making $35k starting at age 25 should be a millionaire by age 67ish, assuming they get a raise of 1.5% a year, and the market returns 7% after inflation. And that is only saving 10% to your retirement. If you save 15%, then you're a millionaire by 61.

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/9/20 9:59 a.m.
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:
aircooled said:
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:

After years spent working for privately owned companies of every size & large corporations, the best thing to ever happen in my working life was to get hired by an ESOP company. It's just a completely different mindset. 
 

Granted, part of it is certainly our internal culture that makes the ESOP work well for us, but I expect the two will generally go hand-in-hand for any successful ESOP.  

I personally don't really agree with this.  ESOP (employee stock ownership programs) are a great way for employees in small growing companies (e.g. startups), to share in the growth of the company. In larger companies, they really don't do much. An average employee in such situations have wildly insignificant effect on the stock price and the price does change enough to have a significant income effect.

There of course is a huge downside to a public company.  They are, pretty much by definition, slaves to their stock prices, which very much come before the employees. It can be fine in good time, but hell in bad ones.

I have worked for all three (the third being a latter stage startup) and I can say I am very happy to be out of a large publicly held company and be in a large privately held company.  Fortunately, the owner seems to be a reasonable, good guy. And yes he is very very very wealthy.  He seems to lean towards nice Mercedes type cars rather than exotics though. He could easily afford buying a new Ferrari each day, but that is just not his style.

FWIW we're a ~1300 person national company & have been around for ~40 years. I've only been here 8-years, so I probably won't be able to retire on just my ESOP(unless I work until I'm 80). The stock price consistently climbs each year though, and we do have a 401k too. 

 

I work for a 50k plus employer. We have an ESOP. Best perk we have, arguably, but it doesn't really make anyone work any harder.

mr2s2000elise
mr2s2000elise UltraDork
11/9/20 10:22 a.m.
nutherjrfan said:

In reply to barefootskater (Shaun) :

I just read that America has approx 20 million millionaires but I've seen lower numbers in a quick Google.

That's impressive and awesome.

Yeah last year I read it was 19 point something million. About 40% of the worlds millionaires. I know we have a bunch of them on GRM alone. 

glueguy (Forum Supporter)
glueguy (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand Dork
11/9/20 10:25 a.m.
mr2s2000elise said:

Yeah last year I read it was 19 point something million. About 40% of the worlds millionaires. I know we have a bunch of them on GRM alone. 

That all oddly still get excited about a $1500 pile of E36 M3 car.

 

Jerry
Jerry UberDork
11/9/20 10:29 a.m.
SnowMongoose said:

In reply to Steve_Jones :

Which is likely part of why he's venting to us instead of telling his boss how tossing his money around looks.  

Clearly OP is a lazy roustabout, not deserving of credit or nice things. /s

Thanx.  Looks like some people in a rush to post a smug comment missed where I said I don't care about the toys themselves, he should enjoy the fruits of his company.  Just also telling his three employees that stuck around when two others quit two years ago and took all the knowledge about a particular line of equipment with them, that stuck it out during the revolving door of 3-6 month techs that didn't cut it (and we fixed their mistakes), that they can't afford a fifty cent raise because something something economy...

But I got my 3D printer working this weekend, so I'm happy.

WilD
WilD Dork
11/9/20 10:36 a.m.
mr2s2000elise said:
nutherjrfan said:

In reply to barefootskater (Shaun) :

I just read that America has approx 20 million millionaires but I've seen lower numbers in a quick Google.

That's impressive and awesome.

Yeah last year I read it was 19 point something million. About 40% of the worlds millionaires. I know we have a bunch of them on GRM alone. 

Yeah, given the subject matter here (classic cars, private auto racing) I would wager that affluent people are over represented in this forum.  ;)

Returning to the original topic, my opinion is that the point is that the boss is tone deaf to his employees at best.  Maybe he hasn't done anything unethical, maybe he has.  You can't be the guy telling people who are busting their butts that "times are tight, and sorry, no raises this year" and also be the guy showing off expensive toys.  Even if everyone in the scenario is already affluent, that will irk people and lower morale.  I find it somewhat comical that the prevailing narrative in the United States is that the lowest paid people need "a good work ethic" and shouldn't notice what the boss makes or does.  The idea that workers should just put their heads down and work harder is pretty toxic.

mr2s2000elise
mr2s2000elise UltraDork
11/9/20 10:40 a.m.
glueguy (Forum Supporter) said:
mr2s2000elise said:

Yeah last year I read it was 19 point something million. About 40% of the worlds millionaires. I know we have a bunch of them on GRM alone. 

That all oddly still get excited about a $1500 pile of E36 M3 car.

 

Agreed!

 

Heck I am continously shopping for 91-92 Supra or a 87-89 Dual sunroof Toyota Lite Ace Van hehe. 

Well most millionaires didn't get to where they are, lusting after $399 secretary special CLA250 or Ghibli leases ;)

 

I am going out to get 35 year old car this week 8 hours away, while everyone I know buying new RR Autobiography or trading their 18G waggen on the 21 model with a $70K ADM HEHE

Mndsm
Mndsm MegaDork
11/9/20 10:42 a.m.

My boss got a really nice boat and all our hours are getting cut...m

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
11/9/20 11:14 a.m.

This has a been a great thread. 

 

I often get labeled in debates as a socialist because I advocate that we need more mechanism for giving incentives to wealthy capitalist entrepreneurs (or shareholders) who give incentives to their employees. 

Our current system, as previously mentioned, gives a lot of incentives to the business owner for running a profitable business, but often times that at the expense of shortchanging his employees. Whether its cut hours, benefits, lack of vacation, insignificant or worthless raises, etc. If the bottom line shows a profit, then who cares if hundreds of thousands of people have lost their job? I think there should be a balance - if profit is flat, but employee retention is good, then great. If we're losing money, but our employees are happy, lets give it a year and see how things shake out. If after a few years we're still bleeding cash, then we need to tell our employees "hey things aren't looking good and we're going to need to make changes." These situations DO happen, often in private companies with ethical, caring ownership, but I've even heard mixed stories between West-Coast employers and East-Coast employers. Something about the effect of Silicone Valley and its impact on business practices on the west coast. 

I work for a large corporate employer. I get paid a really good wage for my level of responsibility, my level of benefits, my virtually never working overtime. I have no complaints about my CEO making $2.8 million because I get regular raises and my job is not in jeopardy. Would I feel differently if he was getting raises when the rest of the company was struggling? Probably. 

I had a former boss who raced Corvettes. He spent way too much money trying to keep his C5 on track. He paid his employees average wages, nothing crazy. It was easy to be jealous, but then again, this was a guy who had owned his business property for 30 years, it was paid off. His house, also paid off. His other vehicles? Old junkers. His only real "excess" was his racing. He gave liberally to local charities. He kept drunk, drugged up, or shiny happy person employees around far longer than most would've tolerated. 

If employees are sending around memes and jokes about how their boss is living the high life while they are working their asses off, then we could argue that something is wrong and bossman is missing the signals, or just doesn't care because he's got a real sexy looking white C8.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
11/9/20 11:27 a.m.
mr2s2000elise said:
nutherjrfan said:

In reply to barefootskater (Shaun) :

I just read that America has approx 20 million millionaires but I've seen lower numbers in a quick Google.

That's impressive and awesome.

Yeah last year I read it was 19 point something million. About 40% of the worlds millionaires. I know we have a bunch of them on GRM alone. 

Not terribly surprising though.  Just owning a house (once the mortgage is paid off) gets you most of the way there in many states / areas when you do the assets minus debts calculation.

Also, not spending money you don' need to is pretty much as important as earning money if you want to accumulate a nice pile of it.  "Grassroots" motorsports is certainly the right attitude to do that.

03Panther
03Panther Dork
11/9/20 11:45 a.m.
A 401 CJ said:
Steve_Jones said:

Lots of jealousy in this thread. You are all free to start your own company and see if you have what it takes to succeed. It takes a lot. 

One of the most sanctimonious comments I’ve ever read on this forum.

I noticed that, and also how so many people assume that “Jerry” is to stupid to think of all the things his boss “might” be doing. When he posted that he just needed to vent. Classy folks. 

I assumed he DID know the obvious, and just needed to vent...

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
11/9/20 12:28 p.m.
mtn (Forum Supporter) said:
nutherjrfan said:

In reply to barefootskater (Shaun) :

I just read that America has approx 20 million millionaires but I've seen lower numbers in a quick Google.

That's impressive and awesome.

I just looked it up - and you're right, I see between 8 and 22 million millionaires in the US. Really hard to quantify this, as how do you value all of someones portfolio? 

Seriously, is this net worth?  Divided by family members, or would a couple worth 1.5M be considered millionares?  

If so, that's a really low number.  1 million is just about bare minimum for retirement IMO and there are >54million people over the age of 65 in the US.

eastsideTim
eastsideTim PowerDork
11/9/20 12:35 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
mtn (Forum Supporter) said:
nutherjrfan said:

In reply to barefootskater (Shaun) :

I just read that America has approx 20 million millionaires but I've seen lower numbers in a quick Google.

That's impressive and awesome.

I just looked it up - and you're right, I see between 8 and 22 million millionaires in the US. Really hard to quantify this, as how do you value all of someones portfolio? 

Seriously, is this net worth?  Divided by family members, or would a couple worth 1.5M be considered millionares?  

If so, that's a really low number.  1 million is just about bare minimum for retirement IMO and there are >54million people over the age of 65 in the US.

A lot of them are still working, or eeking out a very basic living on social security and whatever small amount of savings they have.

Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón)
Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/9/20 12:38 p.m.

People can absolutely do what they want with their own money. They can absolutely run their business they way they want to.

I agree that it's a bit tone deaf to show off toys to employees working in a strugging section of your business. 

All other things being equal, employees that are engaged and content make business owners more money over time.

mr2s2000elise
mr2s2000elise UltraDork
11/9/20 12:44 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
  1 million is just about bare minimum for retirement IMO and there are >54million people over the age of 65 in the US.
  • According to the National Institute on Retirement Security, almost 40 million households have no retirement savings at all.
  •  Research by Federal Reserve found that the median retirement account balance in the U.S. – looking only at those who have retirement accounts – was just $60,000
  • In the same Federal Reserve report, the median household net worth for a head of household age 35-44 years old is $59,800. For a head of household age 45 to 54 years old, that figure is $124,200. In the 55-64 age range, average net worth is $187,300.
  • 56- to 61-year-olds have an average of $163,577 in their retirement savings.
Peabody
Peabody UltimaDork
11/9/20 12:48 p.m.

I also failed to see the connection

Stefan (Forum Supporter)
Stefan (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/9/20 1:20 p.m.
A 401 CJ said:
Steve_Jones said:

Lots of jealousy in this thread. You are all free to start your own company and see if you have what it takes to succeed. It takes a lot. 

One of the most sanctimonious comments I’ve ever read on this forum.

Considering his other comments in other threads, not surprising really.  Ignore him, he's a bit of a lesser troll it seems.

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
11/9/20 2:20 p.m.
Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón) said:

People can absolutely do what they want with their own money. They can absolutely run their business they way they want to.

I agree that it's a bit tone deaf to show off toys to employees working in a strugging section of your business. 

All other things being equal, employees that are engaged and content make business owners more money over time.

Do they though? Walmart seems to think otherwise. Amazon seems to battle employee happiness. Probably lots of other examples out there where companies are profitable, and have been profitable for a long time, despite paying and treating their employees like crap. 

It'd be interesting to run a nationwide poll of employee happiness. Some already have, but they aren't exactly huge datasets:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/12/how-much-americans-want-to-earn-and-how-much-they-actually-get-paid.html

"In an ideal world, Americans would like to earn well above $100,000 a year.

Specifically, men say their “dream salary” is $445,000, while women wish they could earn a more modest, but still substantial, $279,000 per year. That’s according to a 2018 survey from MidAmerica Nazarene University (MNU) of 2,000 Americans.

In reality, even the typical American family earns only a fraction of that: The median household income in the U.S. is $61,372.

And even during their peak earning years, the typical American with a BA isn’t making six figures: Compensation research firm PayScale found that the median salary for a college educated woman tops out at about $61,000, and for a man at just under $95,000."

 

By this logic, we'd expect a lot of businesses to fail, because they are almost always not paying enough, or have fully satisfied employees. That isn't the case, and plenty of businesses thrive despite unsatisifeid, miserable, underpaid employees. 

A 401 CJ
A 401 CJ SuperDork
11/9/20 2:25 p.m.
Jerry said:
SnowMongoose said:

In reply to Steve_Jones :

Which is likely part of why he's venting to us instead of telling his boss how tossing his money around looks.  

Clearly OP is a lazy roustabout, not deserving of credit or nice things. /s

Thanx.  Looks like some people in a rush to post a smug comment missed where I said I don't care about the toys themselves, he should enjoy the fruits of his company.  Just also telling his three employees that stuck around when two others quit two years ago and took all the knowledge about a particular line of equipment with them, that stuck it out during the revolving door of 3-6 month techs that didn't cut it (and we fixed their mistakes), that they can't afford a fifty cent raise because something something economy...

But I got my 3D printer working this weekend, so I'm happy.

You do know that that "/s" means 'sarcasm off' right?  

 

I couldn't tell from your reply if you did or not.  Snowmongoose wasn't insulting you.  

Stefan (Forum Supporter)
Stefan (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/9/20 2:36 p.m.
pheller said:
Brett_Murphy (Ex-Patrón) said:

People can absolutely do what they want with their own money. They can absolutely run their business they way they want to.

I agree that it's a bit tone deaf to show off toys to employees working in a strugging section of your business. 

All other things being equal, employees that are engaged and content make business owners more money over time.

Do they though? Walmart seems to think otherwise. Amazon seems to battle employee happiness. Probably lots of other examples out there where companies are profitable, and have been profitable for a long time, despite paying and treating their employees like crap. 

It'd be interesting to run a nationwide poll of employee happiness. Some already have, but they aren't exactly huge datasets:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/12/how-much-americans-want-to-earn-and-how-much-they-actually-get-paid.html

"In an ideal world, Americans would like to earn well above $100,000 a year.

Specifically, men say their “dream salary” is $445,000, while women wish they could earn a more modest, but still substantial, $279,000 per year. That’s according to a 2018 survey from MidAmerica Nazarene University (MNU) of 2,000 Americans.

In reality, even the typical American family earns only a fraction of that: The median household income in the U.S. is $61,372.

And even during their peak earning years, the typical American with a BA isn’t making six figures: Compensation research firm PayScale found that the median salary for a college educated woman tops out at about $61,000, and for a man at just under $95,000."

 

By this logic, we'd expect a lot of businesses to fail, because they are almost always not paying enough, or have fully satisfied employees. That isn't the case, and plenty of businesses thrive despite unsatisifeid, miserable, underpaid employees. 

Related:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/19/the-profit-motive-behind-walmarts-minimum-wage-hike/

https://mises.org/library/wal-mart-warms-state

 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
11/9/20 2:45 p.m.
mr2s2000elise said:
ProDarwin said:
  1 million is just about bare minimum for retirement IMO and there are >54million people over the age of 65 in the US.
  • According to the National Institute on Retirement Security, almost 40 million households have no retirement savings at all.
  •  Research by Federal Reserve found that the median retirement account balance in the U.S. – looking only at those who have retirement accounts – was just $60,000
  • In the same Federal Reserve report, the median household net worth for a head of household age 35-44 years old is $59,800. For a head of household age 45 to 54 years old, that figure is $124,200. In the 55-64 age range, average net worth is $187,300.
  • 56- to 61-year-olds have an average of $163,577 in their retirement savings.

Yikes.  I knew it was bad, but for some reason that number was shocking to me.  Its like when I read a magazine and found out the average adult male can bench their body weight only 1 time and can do only 1 pull-up.

The above data is weird though, because presumably it only counts retirement accounts, not other investments.  IMO, money saved is all retirement savings.

mr2s2000elise
mr2s2000elise UltraDork
11/9/20 3:03 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
mr2s2000elise said:
ProDarwin said:
  1 million is just about bare minimum for retirement IMO and there are >54million people over the age of 65 in the US.
  • According to the National Institute on Retirement Security, almost 40 million households have no retirement savings at all.
  •  Research by Federal Reserve found that the median retirement account balance in the U.S. – looking only at those who have retirement accounts – was just $60,000
  • In the same Federal Reserve report, the median household net worth for a head of household age 35-44 years old is $59,800. For a head of household age 45 to 54 years old, that figure is $124,200. In the 55-64 age range, average net worth is $187,300.
  • 56- to 61-year-olds have an average of $163,577 in their retirement savings.

Yikes.  I knew it was bad, but for some reason that number was shocking to me.  Its like when I read a magazine and found out the average adult male can bench their body weight only 1 time and can do only 1 pull-up.

The above data is weird though, because presumably it only counts retirement accounts, not other investments.  IMO, money saved is all retirement savings.

Sadly, that is the reality..... 

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