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03Panther
03Panther SuperDork
3/15/21 11:26 p.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to barrowcadbury :

If you want something with character that looks great and si darn near free go to a local sawmill and buy a truckload of thins. 
   Thins are boards less than 1 inch thick and because they have no market value you can load your pickup as much as you dare for $10-15 dollars.  ( talking looking for squirrels with the headlites loaded)  

   I first saw that done where the owner mixed a whole variety of different woods  and put them up randomly. Cherry, Maple, Oak, Black Walnut, tamarack, hackberry, Ironwood, etc.  The look was fascinating.  He said it took him a few hours to do and it cost him less than $30.       

Are those prices from many years ago when you got all your wood? The price of wood is astronomical these days, and the local mills (we have a choice of wood at the local mills down here - pine, or if your real fancy, a little better pine.) have gone up to match. Or if you want to bring wood from your own place (usually, you guessed it, pine) they "only" charge $85/hr to mill it for ya.

engiekev
engiekev HalfDork
3/16/21 5:50 a.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to engiekev :

That's are the result of Mother Nature growing trees at different rates when they need to be harvested at the same time.   
  Anything less than 1 inch thick will not plane to a 3/4 inch finished board.   So trees that are 22& 3/4 inch  wide will wind up with a 3/4 thick board.  
     Normally they are just ground up as mulch  so getting anything for them makes sense.  There is no one standard thickness which adds to the interest. I've seen standardized width say 4". For one level.  And 7" for the next level. Various widths going up the wall.  I've also seen a brick effect used. 2 3" boards butted up to one 6 " board etc.  

The most interesting ( and labor intensive) was stepped boards. One part would be 2" and another part 5" butted up to a 9" board. And a 2"  filler strip to keep everything level.  Add the variety of wood available and You can imagine how interesting it will be. 

That would be cool for a wood shop or cleaner space. In a garage I'll stick with drywall since it's more fire safe and I won't feel bad when it gets trashed.  And for ease of construction, I'd rather slap up sheetrock panels that can be quickly cut with a utility knife compared to lego-piecing a wood wall together. 

I definitely will try to ask around the local mills for that, as we do a lot of pallet wood working and those "thins" sound like a bargain!

You really have to share pics of that wall now :) 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
3/16/21 12:09 p.m.

In reply to 03Panther :

You have to be selective where you buy your wood from. I've found the best places are smaller mom and pop mills that sell wood to pallet makers, railroad ties and occasional hardwood buyers.  Realize that sawmills know retail prices and a slight discount from those sells a lot of wood. Remember from sawmill to retail customer there are 10-15 middlemen.  Each doing something but adding cost and profit.  
   The bigger mills don't want to be bothered and the smallest mills don't count on revenue for occasional buyers.  But don't forget the thins have no commercial value. They vary in thickness from paper to 7/8ths. Normally they go in the mulch pile where they are sold by the ton. 
     While softwood ( such as pine) is going insane in pricing. Hardwoods haven't enjoyed that same surge.  MinnesotaWisconsin Michigan    Furniture sales while up are usually done where the factory is modern with few workers. ( China, Europe) those American factories are usually closed.  The southern 1/2 of those  states are abundant with hardwoods. We still have wood lots of old growth timbers. When woodlots are sold for realestate  development they cut the trees down, put them in a pile, and burn them. 
    The same with the Appalachian mountains. Most of those furniture factories are now closed. 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
3/16/21 12:40 p.m.
engiekev said:
frenchyd said:

In reply to engiekev :

That's are the result of Mother Nature growing trees at different rates when they need to be harvested at the same time.   
  Anything less than 1 inch thick will not plane to a 3/4 inch finished board.   So trees that are 22& 3/4 inch  wide will wind up with a 3/4 thick board.  
     Normally they are just ground up as mulch  so getting anything for them makes sense.  There is no one standard thickness which adds to the interest. I've seen standardized width say 4". For one level.  And 7" for the next level. Various widths going up the wall.  I've also seen a brick effect used. 2 3" boards butted up to one 6 " board etc.  

The most interesting ( and labor intensive) was stepped boards. One part would be 2" and another part 5" butted up to a 9" board. And a 2"  filler strip to keep everything level.  Add the variety of wood available and You can imagine how interesting it will be. 

That would be cool for a wood shop or cleaner space. In a garage I'll stick with drywall since it's more fire safe and I won't feel bad when it gets trashed.  And for ease of construction, I'd rather slap up sheetrock panels that can be quickly cut with a utility knife compared to lego-piecing a wood wall together. 

I definitely will try to ask around the local mills for that, as we do a lot of pallet wood working and those "thins" sound like a bargain!

You really have to share pics of that wall now :) 

Not my walls.  One I saw in Fine homebuilding  or they're in various books and magazines.   You can get an idea though, some flooring where light and dark woods are mixed 

  As for speed?  Taping and mudding takes a lot of time.  Plus a sheet of rock is heavy and awkward for me now. ( I'm 72 )  but grabbing a board and popping a few brads in?  Very easy. Very fast. If I wanted speed I'd rip them to a standard width  and if the board ran over the stud use a backer board  to keep it from flapping.  
      Then I'd spray a clear lacquer as finish.  I'm sure I could have the wall done before I could get a sheetrock wall done. 
 However it's not fireproof.  But probably would withstand water better than sheetrock. 

ddavidv
ddavidv UltimaDork
3/16/21 4:39 p.m.

I have a WRC 22b Impreza rally car poster that would look good on whatever you decide. PM me if interested.

03Panther
03Panther SuperDork
3/17/21 4:06 a.m.
Are those prices from many years ago when you got all your wood?
frenchyd said:

In reply to 03Panther :

You have to be selective where you buy your wood from. I've found the best places are smaller mom and pop mills that sell wood to pallet makers, railroad ties and occasional hardwood buyers.  Realize that sawmills know retail prices and a slight discount from those sells a lot of wood. Remember from sawmill to retail customer there are 10-15 middlemen.  Each doing something but adding cost and profit.  
   The bigger mills don't want to be bothered and the smallest mills don't count on revenue for occasional buyers.  But don't forget the thins have no commercial value. They vary in thickness from paper to 7/8ths. Normally they go in the mulch pile where they are sold by the ton. 
     While softwood ( such as pine) is going insane in pricing. Hardwoods haven't enjoyed that same surge.  MinnesotaWisconsin Michigan    Furniture sales while up are usually done where the factory is modern with few workers. ( China, Europe) those American factories are usually closed.  The southern 1/2 of those  states are abundant with hardwoods. We still have wood lots of old growth timbers. When woodlots are sold for realestate  development they cut the trees down, put them in a pile, and burn them. 
    The same with the Appalachian mountains. Most of those furniture factories are now closed. 

So 4 paragraphs, and you never actually answered my question... it actually is a legitimate question.

Anyone that has ever heard of a sawmill knows all those things.

You always state it as if everyone has access to the same stuff as in your area. LOTS of us, (it may come as a surprise to you, but true none the less,) don't have the same trees as grow in your area.

A used hard wood pallet costs a mint 'round here, as well. Single use pine pallets that still look brand new, on the other hand, you can get paid to haul off!

Again, I'll ask: are the super low prices you are quoting from years ago, or do you know where someone can actually get decent hardwood at those dirt prices?

engiekev
engiekev HalfDork
3/17/21 5:37 a.m.
03Panther said:
Are those prices from many years ago when you got all your wood?
frenchyd said:

In reply to 03Panther :

You have to be selective where you buy your wood from. I've found the best places are smaller mom and pop mills that sell wood to pallet makers, railroad ties and occasional hardwood buyers.  Realize that sawmills know retail prices and a slight discount from those sells a lot of wood. Remember from sawmill to retail customer there are 10-15 middlemen.  Each doing something but adding cost and profit.  
   The bigger mills don't want to be bothered and the smallest mills don't count on revenue for occasional buyers.  But don't forget the thins have no commercial value. They vary in thickness from paper to 7/8ths. Normally they go in the mulch pile where they are sold by the ton. 
     While softwood ( such as pine) is going insane in pricing. Hardwoods haven't enjoyed that same surge.  MinnesotaWisconsin Michigan    Furniture sales while up are usually done where the factory is modern with few workers. ( China, Europe) those American factories are usually closed.  The southern 1/2 of those  states are abundant with hardwoods. We still have wood lots of old growth timbers. When woodlots are sold for realestate  development they cut the trees down, put them in a pile, and burn them. 
    The same with the Appalachian mountains. Most of those furniture factories are now closed. 

So 4 paragraphs, and you never actually answered my question... it actually is a legitimate question.

Anyone that has ever heard of a sawmill knows all those things.

You always state it as if everyone has access to the same stuff as in your area. LOTS of us, (it may come as a surprise to you, but true none the less,) don't have the same trees as grow in your area.

A used hard wood pallet costs a mint 'round here, as well. Single use pine pallets that still look brand new, on the other hand, you can get paid to haul off!

Again, I'll ask: are the super low prices you are quoting from years ago, or do you know where someone can actually get decent hardwood at those dirt prices?

+1 for this question! At least in SE Michigan, mill prices are ridiculous and not far off from buying directly from lumber stores.  I've yet to find a sawmill that's affordable and let's you take "scrap" pieces for free/cheap. Maybe it's cheaper in the thumb by all the Amish folk?

Not sure where you're finding all this old growth wood as well, it's relatively all gone. Most was totally felled by 1920, so if you want truly old growth lumber you have to find reclaimed lumber (not cheap).

I suppose old is relative to all the newly planted crappy pine they use for 2x lumber we get in the midwest, anything is better.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
3/17/21 8:17 a.m.

In reply to engiekev :

 I am still friends with where I bought the 55,000 bd ft of hardwood for my house. So yes those numbers are valid.  While prices are up what the sawmill gets  for the wood it saws  is a tiny fraction of what wood sells for.   The wood they buy from woodlots was signed years before in most cases. Those farmers know to shop around and they learn who they can trust. If the sawyers  the saw mill hires are careless they can do a lot of damage harvesting  the big timbers.  If the agreement is to pile tops and branches there are piles and then there are piles. Clear cut is another matter.  
   Any sawmill is a business first.  If you come in and want to cherry pick wood you'll pay for the privilege.  Same if you only want a few boards. You'll pay at least 3/4 of retail. 
    If you go in and are willing to take a bundle of mill run (ungraded) wood, ( it costs 10-15 cents a Bd ft to grade wood) that's where prices  start being at wholesale numbers.  I got those fantastic prices because they knew me.  We did  business before ( I sold them material handling equipment ) and I knew for example he had a yard full of Black walnut he couldn't find a buyer for.   The next visit I asked what he was doing with all the black walnut. He told me that he was sawing them into railroad ties. He needed the room. 17 cents a bd ft was all he got even though the retailers were getting $9-10 bd ft.  
Last summer when I stopped by I noticed he had a lot of Ash. ( From the Green emerald borer)   If I was building something that's what I'd pick.    
  I got deals on stuff because I paid attention to what he had that wasn't moving.    I bought 800 bd feet of white hard maple fiddle back.  White hard maple sells for $3-4 bd ft. Fiddle back is special 2 bd feet sell for up to $800.00. Yep Eight hundred I paid .10 cents. A bd ft. Why? Because it had sit there so long it actually grew mold on the ends.  Pure scrap.  
He couldn't find a buyer.  
    Knowledge is power. 
 

APEowner
APEowner GRM+ Memberand Dork
3/17/21 8:59 a.m.

If that garage is attached to the house then, in most jurisdictions you need to use 5/8" fire-rated drywall on the wall(s) that separate the house from the garage.  Even if it's not required, it's smart.  Personally, I use it on all the walls and the ceiling.  It's more expensive but if I have a fire in my garage I'd really like to be able to sit in the house and cry about it afterwards.

I make it a point to go back out to the shop and do a quick inspection about an hour after I've been welding, grinding or cutting with fire.  Happily, I've only found something once (so far).   A spark from  grinder had flown diagonally across my 24' x 40' building and landed behind an engine block that was stored against the wall.  The block was well oiled and stored in a plastic bag.  When I went in to check on things there were sooty flames from the burning, oily, plastic bag licking up the wall behind the block.  I put out the fire with the squirt bottle of water that I keep handy when welding.  Thanks to the drywall the fire didn't go any further and cleanup was minimal. 

 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
3/17/21 9:32 a.m.

In reply to APEowner :

Yes sheet rock is good for fire prevention.  But lousy for water intrusion 

engiekev
engiekev HalfDork
3/17/21 9:49 a.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to engiekev :

 I am still friends with where I bought the 55,000 bd ft of hardwood for my house. So yes those numbers are valid.  While prices are up what the sawmill gets  for the wood it saws  is a tiny fraction of what wood sells for.   The wood they buy from woodlots was signed years before in most cases. Those farmers know to shop around and they learn who they can trust. If the sawyers  the saw mill hires are careless they can do a lot of damage harvesting  the big timbers.  If the agreement is to pile tops and branches there are piles and then there are piles. Clear cut is another matter.  
   Any sawmill is a business first.  If you come in and want to cherry pick wood you'll pay for the privilege.  Same if you only want a few boards. You'll pay at least 3/4 of retail. 
    If you go in and are willing to take a bundle of ungraded wood, that's where prices  start being at wholesale numbers.  I got those fantastic prices because they knew me.  We did  business before and I knew for example he had a yard full of Black walnut he couldn't find a buyer for.   The next visit I asked what he was doing with all the black walnut. He told me that he was sawing them into railroad ties. He needed the room. 17 cents a bd ft was all he got even though the retailers were getting $9-10 bd ft.  
Last summer when I stopped by I noticed he had a lot of Ash. ( From the Green emerald borer)   If I was building something that's what I'd pick.    
  I got deals on stuff because I paid attention to what he had that wasn't moving.    I bought 800 bd feet of white hard maple fiddle back.  White hard maple sells for $3-4 bd ft. Fiddle back is special 2 bd feet sell for up to $800.00. Yep Eight hundred I paid .10 cents. A bd ft. Why? Because it had sit there so long it actually grew mold on the ends.  Pure scrap.  
He couldn't find a buyer.  
    Knowledge is power. 
 

Wow! Unfortunately I haven't had the time to find a local mill and make a relationship like you did. That's insane pricing for black walnut. No ash left in MI, they all died from emerald ash borer.

engiekev
engiekev HalfDork
3/17/21 9:52 a.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to APEowner :

Yes sheet rock is good for fire prevention.  But lousy for water intrusion 

If garage is not attached, and you can get away without drywall. Why not use metal roofing panels for walls as well? No taping or mudding required, just as fire-proof (if not more). Is there any reason not to use them for walls and ceiling? Basically like a pole barn construction but in a garage.  Just throw up some furring strips on studs and good to start screwing, cut panels to fit and for outlets with angle grinder and jig saw/sawzall.

The panels aren't cheap, but neither is paint for drywall or OSB walls.  Any Menards or local roof metal supplier carries in large quantities, and the one local to me has "scratch and dent" for about 1/2 price. 

  • Normal price for "economy" panels is $.23/in, or $21.60 for 8ftx3ft panel.  The panels overlap, so two 3x8s cover roughly 5.5ft.
  • OSB 1/2in 4'x'8 is $31 each 
  • Drywall 1/2in 4'x'8 sheet is roughly $8. By far the cheapest, but who wants to tape and mud?

https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/pole-barn-post-frame-materials/steel-panels/c-5717.htm

https://www.midmichiganmetalsales.com/product/hardy-rib-galvalume-3-ft-coverage-panel-2/

Jarvis Builders - Custom Pole Barns, Roofing, Siding, and Remodeling

Rusnak_322
Rusnak_322 Dork
3/17/21 10:21 a.m.

In reply to engiekev :

wouldn't that be loud? drywall and wood will absorb sounds, that will reflect them. 

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) UltimaDork
3/17/21 10:30 a.m.

If you're okay with the look of corrugated roofing tin inside the garage, why bother tape & mudding drywall?  

A smart idea in this thread mentioned previously was to run a ring of roofing tin around the inside of the garage at the base so that liquids that might splash onto the wall will most likely hit that and not drywall which will soak up water and such.  Then above that run drywall.  Might look a little odd but from a functional standpoint I think it makes sense.  Big grain of salt with that though as this isn't my department, I'm just dreaming about garages currently.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
3/17/21 11:31 a.m.
engiekev said:
IfI frenchyd said:

In reply to engiekev :

 I am still friends with where I bought the 55,000 bd ft of hardwood for my house. So yes those numbers are valid.  While prices are up what the sawmill gets  for the wood it saws  is a tiny fraction of what wood sells for.   The wood they buy from woodlots was signed years before in most cases. Those farmers know to shop around and they learn who they can trust. If the sawyers  the saw mill hires are careless they can do a lot of damage harvesting  the big timbers.  If the agreement is to pile tops and branches there are piles and then there are piles. Clear cut is another matter.  
   Any sawmill is a business first.  If you come in and want to cherry pick wood you'll pay for the privilege.  Same if you only want a few boards. You'll pay at least 3/4 of retail. 
    If you go in and are willing to take a bundle of ungraded wood, that's where prices  start being at wholesale numbers.  I got those fantastic prices because they knew me.  We did  business before and I knew for example he had a yard full of Black walnut he couldn't find a buyer for.   The next visit I asked what he was doing with all the black walnut. He told me that he was sawing them into railroad ties. He needed the room. 17 cents a bd ft was all he got even though the retailers were getting $9-10 bd ft.  
Last summer when I stopped by I noticed he had a lot of Ash. ( From the Green emerald borer)   If I was building something that's what I'd pick.    
  I got deals on stuff because I paid attention to what he had that wasn't moving.    I bought 800 bd feet of white hard maple fiddle back.  White hard maple sells for $3-4 bd ft. Fiddle back is special 2 bd feet sell for up to $800.00. Yep Eight hundred I paid .10 cents. A bd ft. Why? Because it had sit there so long it actually grew mold on the ends.  Pure scrap.  
He couldn't find a buyer.  
    Knowledge is power. 
 

Wow! Unfortunately I haven't had the time to find a local mill and make a relationship like you did. That's insane pricing for black walnut. No ash left in MI, they all died from emerald ash borer.

I tend to get great bargains. Some of that is being in the right place at the right time but most of it is knowledge.   Knowing what is a normal price. Evenings and weekends I'm a voracious reader. Before I started doing business with sawmills I read everything I could find ( and there is a ton of it including spot pricing on wholesale wood).  
     Realize please that it's not nearly as great a deal as it sounds. Those prices are rough sawn  usually for mill run ( as it comes off the log ). Depending on where the logs are grown you can have 5-10% waste. Green and not to a standard size.   Drying takes time if air dried and requires stickers. ( stickers are used to space boards apart to get air circulating.  So they typically are 1"x1"  and usually 4 ft long. ). Plus the boards need to be covered with something and weighted so they don't curl.  Rough rule of thumb is one year for each inch of thickness.  But big timbers like I used, add even more time. 
Old growth is just the way wood grows. Not a particular age.  Some trees start to rot from the inside out after 100-200-300 years or more. White Oak for example is about 200 years.  When trees sprout and grow naturally they fight for sunlight and nutrition. Their growth rings are extremely close together.  
  Plantation grown are spread apart to have the tree grow as fast as possible hence the wide growth rings and the tendency to warp and curl.  
Wood isn't completely dry when used for construction.  Most is KD 19  stands for Kiln dried 19% moisture + or - 2%.  Wood harvested in the summer is often near enough to 21% they ship it and expect it to reach that number before it's sold. I've seen wood roll right through the kiln with the stamps already on it but no actual drying taking place.
      There is ash left in Mich. it's just in wood lots and maybe dead or dying.  The bole is still harvestable  if the sawmill is nearby they probably will get away with transporting it and just burying  the slab wood in a nearby revine nearby.  Many a sawmill will cheat, it's a rough business. 

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