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Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
6/24/08 9:04 a.m.

There are some solid fuel hydrogen solutions. The hydrogen is bound to some solid. You put the solid cell thingie into your car like a cordless drill battery where the hydrogen is released to run your fuel cell. When empty, you exchange the solid cell for a fresh one. No tank.

The problem with hydrogen powered vehicles is that it takes as much energy to make the hydrogen as it does to otherwise run the vehicle. If you run a coal plant to make electricty to make hydrogen from water, then convert the hydrogen into electricity with a byproduct of the biggest greenhouse gas of all (water vapor), plus ozone from the electric motors running the car, where are you coming out ahead?

The solution is Ultracapacitors. Probably involving nano-technology. Physics start behaving strangley at the nano level and I bet that a very high capacity capacitor could be made with that technology. We need a 3000 Farad capacitor at 1500 Volts, not 2.7 Volts. A couple of those and we'd be set.

John Brown
John Brown GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
6/24/08 9:15 a.m.
Dr. Hess wrote: The problem with hydrogen powered vehicles is that it takes as much energy to make the hydrogen as it does to otherwise run the vehicle. If you run a coal plant to make electricty to make hydrogen from water, then convert the hydrogen into electricity with a byproduct of the biggest greenhouse gas of all (water vapor), plus ozone from the electric motors running the car, where are you coming out ahead?

Remove the coal fired plant and insert a Geothermal plant and you have a Ozone and H2O generating renewable facility.

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
6/24/08 11:51 a.m.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/23/impossible-finding-expert_n_108692.html

ha ha

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
6/24/08 12:12 p.m.

More short term only thinking, ignorant. I heard BHO biatching the same thing. Something like "drilling in ANWR won't solve the gas price today." OK, so let's just blow it off then and do nothing and see what happens in about 5 years from now. Oh, wait, that's how we got in this mess today.

John, remove the hydrogen altogether and put an ultracapacitor in its place. Power that by a Organic Rankine Cycle plant that collects heat from your roof. No hydrogen to worry about, nothing for you to have to pay someone else for.

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
6/24/08 12:45 p.m.

1.mcain is saying it will have short term impact. that's why its funny..

  1. using supply side controls for this is short term... We need to think Demand side.
DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
6/24/08 1:45 p.m.

It will definitely have a long term effect. I think it will probably have a short term one too though. A lot of the price is due to run-up by speculators. Speculators are buying because they think there will be ever-higher prices. Once a long term strategy is set in place to help demand, then the inevitability of ever higher prices is removed, and the speculation gets tempered.

John Brown
John Brown GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
6/24/08 2:18 p.m.
Dr. Hess wrote: More short term only thinking, ignorant. I heard BHO biatching the same thing. Something like "drilling in ANWR won't solve the gas price today." OK, so let's just blow it off then and do nothing and see what happens in about 5 years from now. Oh, wait, that's how we got in this mess today. John, remove the hydrogen altogether and put an ultracapacitor in its place. Power that by a Organic Rankine Cycle plant that collects heat from your roof. No hydrogen to worry about, nothing for you to have to pay someone else for.

Most of our choices forward will involve massive infrastructure renovation. I like my petrol swilling ozone killer. I like it a lot. I am willing to do whatever it takes to help extend my use the car. I carpool, drive higher mpg cars, I even have cut back on unnecessary driving. I am working at being Eco Friendly.

I don't have the money to create a giant solar array on my roof. A wind farm would be great on my block with the exception of the whole "wind generators don't like ice" deal. And I can barely pay attention I am certain I can't afford an ultracapacitor.

Nuclear is perfect for Michigan... wind can work... GT is viable... Am I wrong but doesn't an ORC require a hell of a lot more space than the roof of a 16x80 trailer? All that I am seeing on them is substation power supply and larger structure supply.

I can guess the preventative maintenance costs more than my house payment.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
6/24/08 2:47 p.m.

I've seen pictures of small Organic Rankin Cycle machines, in the few KW range. I think they are used on the Alaskan Pipeline and to power various remote control stations. There is a town in Alaska that has a huge one running on 150F geothermal water. Put the two technologies together, you get 150+F water (or Toyota Red antifreze mixed with water, as the case may be) from your roof solar collector (just pipes in a black painted box with a plexiglass cover) running a few KW Organic Rankin Cycle turbo generator. Charge up a ultracapacitor, use that to power your house and charge the ultracapacitor in your car, drive for free.

It's very doable.

John Brown
John Brown GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
6/24/08 3:15 p.m.

"drive for free" would require an $XXX,XXX.00 investment to get out from under the thumb of the current power holders.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
6/24/08 3:45 p.m.

Yes, and that's why it won't happen. That's why we'll have nuclear power plants instead.

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
6/24/08 9:49 p.m.
John Brown wrote: Go nuts on Nuclear, Clean coal, Hyroelectric, Geothermal and Wind stations. Then bring Plug-In electrics on line for all city commuters with a HUGE tax credit.

I was with you until you got to "tax credit." Berkeley a tax credit. Why not just force me to make your car payment? Let the technology come to market when it's cost-effective, not when it requires redistribution of wealth to make viable for the user.

neon4891
neon4891 HalfDork
6/24/08 10:32 p.m.

reminds me of when I was in Borders a few months ago. I found a video "Who killed the electric car?" I think it was mostly about the GM EV1. I am willing to assume that those things ran off conventional lead-acid batteries. Limited range/long charge time/only charge it at home, I think it had sufficient shortcomings that caused it's own demise. If any of you guy have exsperience with EV1s, feel free to correct me.

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
6/24/08 10:33 p.m.
AngryCorvair wrote:
John Brown wrote: Go nuts on Nuclear, Clean coal, Hyroelectric, Geothermal and Wind stations. Then bring Plug-In electrics on line for all city commuters with a HUGE tax credit.
I was with you until you got to "tax credit." Berkeley a tax credit. Why not just force me to make your car payment? Let the technology come to market when it's cost-effective, not when it requires redistribution of wealth to make viable for the user.

Damn it's hot when you talk all capitalist to me.

John Brown
John Brown GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
6/25/08 5:55 a.m.

No problem P, replace HUGE tax credit with HJ.

Either way it ain't helping either of us.

doitover
doitover New Reader
6/25/08 9:28 a.m.

Yeah, the same for public education, sewers, roads, phones, air traffic control, defencse, all that stuff, if it doen't pay for itself up front, don't do it.

I have no idea what this conversation was about. :)

Wind power does seem to be finally happening in the US. Drive east out of Bloomington, Il. sometime. There is a wind farm there that goes on for at least 12 miles. I think it's the second largest farm in the US and is owned by, tada, some South American company. I think there are numerous studies now that say solar would be possible at less than other traditional peak demand supplies if the production of the cells could be jump started to get the economy of scale up. By traditional business requirements it will never happen.

AngryCorvair wrote:
John Brown wrote: Go nuts on Nuclear, Clean coal, Hyroelectric, Geothermal and Wind stations. Then bring Plug-In electrics on line for all city commuters with a HUGE tax credit.
I was with you until you got to "tax credit." Berkeley a tax credit. Why not just force me to make your car payment? Let the technology come to market when it's cost-effective, not when it requires redistribution of wealth to make viable for the user.
16vCorey
16vCorey Dork
6/25/08 9:33 a.m.
doitover wrote: ...and is owned by, tada, some South American company.

Do you think they might be a company of magicians?

doitover
doitover New Reader
6/25/08 10:00 a.m.

I'm thinking drug money. :) Actually I have no idea, I saw that when looking for information on it after a trip through there. A lot of people hate the way they look, I think they are just Jetsony cool. The idea that you can get that much power out of an area while losing very little farm land is also cool.

16vCorey wrote:
doitover wrote: ...and is owned by, tada, some South American company.
Do you think they might be a company of magicians?
Strizzo
Strizzo HalfDork
6/25/08 10:44 a.m.
doitover wrote: Yeah, the same for public education, sewers, roads, phones, air traffic control, defencse, all that stuff, if it doen't pay for itself up front, don't do it. I have no idea what this conversation was about. :) Wind power does seem to be finally happening in the US. Drive east out of Bloomington, Il. sometime. There is a wind farm there that goes on for at least 12 miles. I think it's the second largest farm in the US and is owned by, tada, some South American company. I think there are numerous studies now that say solar would be possible at less than other traditional peak demand supplies if the production of the cells could be jump started to get the economy of scale up. By traditional business requirements it will never happen.

actually General Electric just started the process of buying up some kind of polymer company that will be able to make pvc's much more cost effective. - like, they may actually be able to save money in the long run cost effective

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