I usually associate these electronic babysitters as another page in the book of ever decreasing personal responsibility.
I may be wrong in this association, but unfortunately I haven't been able to quite shake it.
I usually associate these electronic babysitters as another page in the book of ever decreasing personal responsibility.
I may be wrong in this association, but unfortunately I haven't been able to quite shake it.
Klayfish said:In reply to alfadriver :
I'd bet that even the most skilled race car driver in any discipline couldn't outperform a top level ABS system or even traction/stability control.
And no, I am not saying we should willfully turn all control over to computers. I love running around a race track in a 25 year old pick up truck with minimal electronics...around 100 other cars in the same boat. But there's no denying the computers are smarter and more capable than I am.
They can't.
CAD-based FEA IS STUPID!
CRUMPLE ZONES ARE STUPID!
MORE AIRBAGS ARE STUPID!
TRACTION CONTROL IS STUPID!
ABS IS STUPID!
Everything I've driven with lane departure allows you to turn off the steering wheel feedback which is great for in city driving.
Gunchsta said:I usually associate these electronic babysitters as another page in the book of ever decreasing personal responsibility.
I may be wrong in this association, but unfortunately I haven't been able to quite shake it.
IMHO, that mindset needs to be worked on, as it influences you on many items (way more than just cars). Sometimes, people don't have the control to even be responsible. Many times, in fact.
z31maniac said:CAD-based FEA IS STUPID!
CRUMPLE ZONES ARE STUPID!
MORE AIRBAGS ARE STUPID!
TRACTION CONTROL IS STUPID!
ABS IS STUPID!
Hell yeah!!! Hydraulic brakes are stupid too...we need to bring back mechanical drums, or maybe even wooden block brakes. Ban radial tires, who the hell thought of those? Bias ply were the bees knees. 
In reply to alfadriver :
I'm 100% not trying to be argumentative, so please don't take it as that, but who lacks the control to be responsible? Or under what circumstances?
alfadriver said:Uh, no. You'd barely see the actual cost difference. The entire reason most of these systems are on cars is that they are so cheap to produce. Sensors are cheap, computers are cheap, software is free (other than development). It may be astonishing to hear that there are more than 10 computers running stuff on cars these days, but remember there's another thread right now that points out that you can get a full blown raspberry pi computer for $35- and that's the commercial price to you for a general machine. Cut the machine down to proper size, and bump up the volume to millions at a time- they are cheap- more like Arduino cheap.
It's also not just a matter of smarter or not- but more skillful. You'd have to get in the top of the top racing drivers to find someone who can outperform ABS. And, yea, I know about the gravel and snow excuses that have come on over the years- but be honest- how often do you REALLY drive in deep gravel or snow? Same for traction control. If all drivers who said they were so skilled at traction control and ABS were that skilled, the amount of really high quality racing drivers would an order of magnitude higher.
I like the *concept* of having a simple car, too- which means my '99 Miata will always be in my fleet. But I know that the 2016 Focus I drive right now is a far safer car in every single aspect of driving. Far as I can tell, I've not lost the skills I had, and processes I use to drive- they are just enhanced with the computers.
I agree with everything you said but at the same time, I just haven't enjoyed any modern car I have driven compared a lot of "older" stuff. So for me the comparative "risk" of driving a car from the '90s is worth it.
But my wife drives a '14 Escape and I am glad she has the extra safety and it is nice to have something more refined then my Civic for road trips.
Klayfish said:z31maniac said:CAD-based FEA IS STUPID!
CRUMPLE ZONES ARE STUPID!
MORE AIRBAGS ARE STUPID!
TRACTION CONTROL IS STUPID!
ABS IS STUPID!
Hell yeah!!! Hydraulic brakes are stupid too...we need to bring back mechanical drums, or maybe even wooden block brakes. Ban radial tires, who the hell thought of those? Bias ply were the bees knees.
And seat belts! Don't you know the safest thing is to be thrown from the wreckage!
93EXCivic said:alfadriver said:Uh, no. You'd barely see the actual cost difference. The entire reason most of these systems are on cars is that they are so cheap to produce. Sensors are cheap, computers are cheap, software is free (other than development). It may be astonishing to hear that there are more than 10 computers running stuff on cars these days, but remember there's another thread right now that points out that you can get a full blown raspberry pi computer for $35- and that's the commercial price to you for a general machine. Cut the machine down to proper size, and bump up the volume to millions at a time- they are cheap- more like Arduino cheap.
It's also not just a matter of smarter or not- but more skillful. You'd have to get in the top of the top racing drivers to find someone who can outperform ABS. And, yea, I know about the gravel and snow excuses that have come on over the years- but be honest- how often do you REALLY drive in deep gravel or snow? Same for traction control. If all drivers who said they were so skilled at traction control and ABS were that skilled, the amount of really high quality racing drivers would an order of magnitude higher.
I like the *concept* of having a simple car, too- which means my '99 Miata will always be in my fleet. But I know that the 2016 Focus I drive right now is a far safer car in every single aspect of driving. Far as I can tell, I've not lost the skills I had, and processes I use to drive- they are just enhanced with the computers.
I agree with everything you said but at the same time, I just haven't enjoyed any modern car I have driven compared a lot of "older" stuff. So for me the comparative "risk" of driving a car from the '90s is worth it.
But my wife drives a '14 Escape and I am glad she has the extra safety and it is nice to have something more refined then my Civic for road trips.
Just out of curiosity what did you drive and what specifically did you not like?
You didn't feel connected?
93EXCivic said:alfadriver said:Uh, no. You'd barely see the actual cost difference. The entire reason most of these systems are on cars is that they are so cheap to produce. Sensors are cheap, computers are cheap, software is free (other than development). It may be astonishing to hear that there are more than 10 computers running stuff on cars these days, but remember there's another thread right now that points out that you can get a full blown raspberry pi computer for $35- and that's the commercial price to you for a general machine. Cut the machine down to proper size, and bump up the volume to millions at a time- they are cheap- more like Arduino cheap.
It's also not just a matter of smarter or not- but more skillful. You'd have to get in the top of the top racing drivers to find someone who can outperform ABS. And, yea, I know about the gravel and snow excuses that have come on over the years- but be honest- how often do you REALLY drive in deep gravel or snow? Same for traction control. If all drivers who said they were so skilled at traction control and ABS were that skilled, the amount of really high quality racing drivers would an order of magnitude higher.
I like the *concept* of having a simple car, too- which means my '99 Miata will always be in my fleet. But I know that the 2016 Focus I drive right now is a far safer car in every single aspect of driving. Far as I can tell, I've not lost the skills I had, and processes I use to drive- they are just enhanced with the computers.
I agree with everything you said but at the same time, I just haven't enjoyed any modern car I have driven compared a lot of "older" stuff. So for me the comparative "risk" of driving a car from the '90s is worth it.
But my wife drives a '14 Escape and I am glad she has the extra safety and it is nice to have something more refined then my Civic for road trips.
I can't say that I disagree with your point- there's a reason I never (almost never) autocrossed my Miata vs. my Alfa. I enjoyed the feeling of driving the older car vs. the newer car, even though the Miata was a far superior car.
But that's a very different argument than the OP.
And for most of the driving public, the real ones who really don't like driving cars- what we notice and enjoy would be more of a PITA to them. Very far from being an appliance that gets you to and from work, as well as to the store to buy stuff.
z31maniac said:93EXCivic said:alfadriver said:Uh, no. You'd barely see the actual cost difference. The entire reason most of these systems are on cars is that they are so cheap to produce. Sensors are cheap, computers are cheap, software is free (other than development). It may be astonishing to hear that there are more than 10 computers running stuff on cars these days, but remember there's another thread right now that points out that you can get a full blown raspberry pi computer for $35- and that's the commercial price to you for a general machine. Cut the machine down to proper size, and bump up the volume to millions at a time- they are cheap- more like Arduino cheap.
It's also not just a matter of smarter or not- but more skillful. You'd have to get in the top of the top racing drivers to find someone who can outperform ABS. And, yea, I know about the gravel and snow excuses that have come on over the years- but be honest- how often do you REALLY drive in deep gravel or snow? Same for traction control. If all drivers who said they were so skilled at traction control and ABS were that skilled, the amount of really high quality racing drivers would an order of magnitude higher.
I like the *concept* of having a simple car, too- which means my '99 Miata will always be in my fleet. But I know that the 2016 Focus I drive right now is a far safer car in every single aspect of driving. Far as I can tell, I've not lost the skills I had, and processes I use to drive- they are just enhanced with the computers.
I agree with everything you said but at the same time, I just haven't enjoyed any modern car I have driven compared a lot of "older" stuff. So for me the comparative "risk" of driving a car from the '90s is worth it.
But my wife drives a '14 Escape and I am glad she has the extra safety and it is nice to have something more refined then my Civic for road trips.
Just out of curiosity what did you drive and what specifically did you not like?
You didn't feel connected?
I haven't driven a ton of newer sportier vehicles. Decent of amount of normal cars but of sporty stuff, Challenger R/T, NC Miata, BMW E90, ~13 V6 Mustang.
I just didn't feel connected to the car like I do in my 93 Civic or an NA Miata or etc. Also the lack of visibility in modern cars really bothers me. I know modern cars stop better, are more powerful, safer and grip better but they just feel like appliances to me. I know that is funny coming from someone who is driving a '93 Civic which really was built as an economy box appliance but it is how I have felt. I mean I have loved driving even older cars more but I think the 90s are a good compromise between reliability, reparability and feel.
imgon said:While some of the safety features offered today do truely make cars safer, I think too many just promote relying on the nannies to save you because you weren't pay attention. I frequently hear people talking about how they can do "X" because the car will take over. Scarry that we share the roads with these people.
We have always had those “scary people”
Before safety stuff 60,000 deaths and going up every year
After safety stuff 30,000 deaths and going down every year
93EXCivic said:z31maniac said:93EXCivic said:alfadriver said:Uh, no. You'd barely see the actual cost difference. The entire reason most of these systems are on cars is that they are so cheap to produce. Sensors are cheap, computers are cheap, software is free (other than development). It may be astonishing to hear that there are more than 10 computers running stuff on cars these days, but remember there's another thread right now that points out that you can get a full blown raspberry pi computer for $35- and that's the commercial price to you for a general machine. Cut the machine down to proper size, and bump up the volume to millions at a time- they are cheap- more like Arduino cheap.
It's also not just a matter of smarter or not- but more skillful. You'd have to get in the top of the top racing drivers to find someone who can outperform ABS. And, yea, I know about the gravel and snow excuses that have come on over the years- but be honest- how often do you REALLY drive in deep gravel or snow? Same for traction control. If all drivers who said they were so skilled at traction control and ABS were that skilled, the amount of really high quality racing drivers would an order of magnitude higher.
I like the *concept* of having a simple car, too- which means my '99 Miata will always be in my fleet. But I know that the 2016 Focus I drive right now is a far safer car in every single aspect of driving. Far as I can tell, I've not lost the skills I had, and processes I use to drive- they are just enhanced with the computers.
I agree with everything you said but at the same time, I just haven't enjoyed any modern car I have driven compared a lot of "older" stuff. So for me the comparative "risk" of driving a car from the '90s is worth it.
But my wife drives a '14 Escape and I am glad she has the extra safety and it is nice to have something more refined then my Civic for road trips.
Just out of curiosity what did you drive and what specifically did you not like?
You didn't feel connected?
I haven't driven a ton of newer sportier vehicles. Decent of amount of normal cars but of sporty stuff, Challenger R/T, NC Miata, BMW E90, ~13 V6 Mustang.
I just didn't feel connected to the car like I do in my 93 Civic or an NA Miata or etc. Also the lack of visibility in modern cars really bothers me. I know modern cars stop better, are more powerful, safer and grip better but they just feel like appliances to me. I know that is funny coming from someone who is driving a '93 Civic which really was built as an economy box appliance but it is how I have felt. I mean I have loved driving even older cars more but I think the 90s are a good compromise between reliability, reparability and feel.
When I want to feel in complete control I race my group 1 Vintage car. No roll bar, no safety stuff, but everyone in my group shares the same risks. Yet we drive as close as possible to the absolute edge.
My point is if you dislike “safety Stuff” on public roads you are asking the rest of society to pay for your risky attitude.
Don't do that. Race on a Private track . Be responsible.
OK, not beating anyone up, but let’s make some points. It’s an established fact that the majority of people believe they are better than average drivers which obviously cant’ be true. But let’s face it, even the top professional drivers can have single car unprovoked accidents due to lapses of concentration. Hell, Lewis Hamilton got in a fender bender on the streets of Monaco in his Pagani a couple of years ago. Not everyone is on form all the time. I don’t’ claim to be the best driver on the road, but I do think I’m OK, I also have plenty of on track experience, I’ve been in cars where I took evasive action and passengers have asked me how the hell I knew that was about to happen. Even with that I’ve had accidents that were my fault and I can admit that blind spot warning and back up sensors have saved me from other accidents. Then add in the fact that people age, get ill, poor light conditions, rain, snow, black ice etc. etc. I personally find arguments against most safety features as ridiculous, and the continuing decline in fatalities compared to miles driven support that.
Takata airbags for all!
oh, wait ...
I miss steering wheel mounted spark adjustment.
frenchyd said:When I want to feel in complete control I race my group 1 Vintage car. No roll bar, no safety stuff, but everyone in my group shares the same risks. Yet we drive as close as possible to the absolute edge.
My point is if you dislike “safety Stuff” on public roads you are asking the rest of society to pay for your risky attitude.
Don't do that. Race on a Private track . Be responsible.
So you are saying I shouldn't drive older cars on the road because they don't have ABS, traction control and the like? What about motorcycles? You are just trolling right?
It was cold this morning so I had to pull the chock on my carb’d 1983 RX-7 to get her started. She sprang to life with zero drama…I just cracked a subtle grin recalling the episode…you guys can knock yourselves out, ”we” are very content with our respective roles and responsibilities.
ncjay said:The newest car I own is a 1997 Eclipse. I won't buy anything newer. I don't need a car that thinks it's smarter than I am. I am fully capable of operating the controls all by myself. I believe if they'd let me purchase a brand new car equipped the way I want it, I could get it for about $2,500.
Possibly, but it goes for twice as much in the US:
http://www.thehindu.com/business/Tata-Nano-may-come-to-US-with-5000-price-tag/article16837677.ece
(Try copy-and-pasting that link, doesn't work when I make it a hyperlink for some reason)
Gunchsta said:I usually associate these electronic babysitters as another page in the book of ever decreasing personal responsibility.
I may be wrong in this association, but unfortunately I haven't been able to quite shake it.
If you have the new safety stuff like automatic braking and blind spot warning. Your insurance will be much lower.
93EXCivic said:frenchyd said:When I want to feel in complete control I race my group 1 Vintage car. No roll bar, no safety stuff, but everyone in my group shares the same risks. Yet we drive as close as possible to the absolute edge.
My point is if you dislike “safety Stuff” on public roads you are asking the rest of society to pay for your risky attitude.
Don't do that. Race on a Private track . Be responsible.
So you are saying I shouldn't drive older cars on the road because they don't have ABS, traction control and the like? What about motorcycles? You are just trolling right?
Newer motorcycles have all the same stuff, if you want to make that comparison.
Klayfish said:z31maniac said:CAD-based FEA IS STUPID!
CRUMPLE ZONES ARE STUPID!
MORE AIRBAGS ARE STUPID!
TRACTION CONTROL IS STUPID!
ABS IS STUPID!
Hell yeah!!! Hydraulic brakes are stupid too...we need to bring back mechanical drums, or maybe even wooden block brakes. Ban radial tires, who the hell thought of those? Bias ply were the bees knees.
z31maniac said:93EXCivic said:frenchyd said:When I want to feel in complete control I race my group 1 Vintage car. No roll bar, no safety stuff, but everyone in my group shares the same risks. Yet we drive as close as possible to the absolute edge.
My point is if you dislike “safety Stuff” on public roads you are asking the rest of society to pay for your risky attitude.
Don't do that. Race on a Private track . Be responsible.
So you are saying I shouldn't drive older cars on the road because they don't have ABS, traction control and the like? What about motorcycles? You are just trolling right?
Newer motorcycles have all the same stuff, if you want to make that comparison.
Should have made the point clearer and listed more safety devices cause I really didn't. I don't think they have lane assist, automatic braking and I am fairly confident they don't have airbags.
I guess my basic point was I am pretty sure motorcycles are at least as dangerous as older cars (I'd assume more so).
Old nannies sucked (ABS that would go into ice mode on dry pavement! Traction control that works by applying full ABS!), but newer traction and stability control systems are more sophisticated, intervene gently and are actually pretty good. Blind spot monitoring and backup cameras can be useful on new cars with massive blind spots, and radar cruise is actually pretty nifty. Semi-autonomous suites are far more capable than many of us think. Porsche's Innodrive was going to have a Sport + mode, but a very early version showed that people are often unsettled when a semi-autonomous car takes corners at 0.7g. Actually, a semi-autonomous suite that can corner at 0.7g might actually be fun.
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