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frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/25/22 2:06 p.m.
j_tso said:
RevRico said:

In reply to hybridmomentspass :

But kids aren't allowed to fail or be wrong anymore because it might hurt their precious self esteem or their feelings.

Nevermind the damage we're already seeing from this no child left behind pro self esteem every child is a special winner bullE36 M3 movement, not only in international academic rankings, but in so many people joining the work force who have no idea what it's like to receive criticism, let alone fail or truly berkeley up and need to recover from it, so they break down, or freak out, or demand special treatment and to be treated with kid gloves despite being grown adults.

The flip side of that is schooling in Asia where kids are told they're worthless until they prove they aren't. That leads to suicides when studying for or failing standardized tests. There needs to be a balance.

There is an extremely fine line between pushing too hard and not pushing hard enough.  
     I've known parents who lost their children to suicide and they are on both sides of that line. 
  It's so easy to be glib about the subject and without knowing everything come up wrong.  
   The best advice is to listen to both children and the parents. Leave both with the feeling you support them and always want to hear more.  Then get professional help involved. 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
6/25/22 4:15 p.m.
John Welsh said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

In our generally low cost of living area, in my wife's district  pays new teachers about $35k. My wife, highly over educated and near retirement knocks down near $90k. She's in the top 4 or 5 wages in the district. She makes more than a young principal. 

That's what they start at here ("average" COL, but quite low compared with any major metro area) with a Bachelor's.  With a Master's its just over $40k. 

I think they should be paid around 3x that much.  They deserve it, they need to attract the right talent, etc.   The only way I see that happening is tax payers demanding it and in most areas that just won't happen :(

 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/26/22 12:45 a.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

While I agree that a massive increase in pay will help attract more candidates. I think what is really needed is a rethink of education itself.  
    Be honest does America really need more art history majors, Middle Ages scholars, Philosophy instructors?  
    Or do we need more well trained electricians, mechanics, plumbers, carpenters, machinists, farmers, etc?   
     Why let those who lack an interest in academic subjects feel like failures.   

  But if you'd like hands on jobs like the above, you are considered a failure?   Germany and many other European nations find ways to recognize interests in non academic subjects.   Fine,  teach them reading, writing, and arithmetic.  Even science and art.   But train some to use tools and their hands.    Or at least let them try!!! 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
6/26/22 8:03 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

I wont dispute that there are problems with the way education is structured here in the US.

And that extends up to college as well.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
6/26/22 8:12 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

We're talking primary school education here, not college.

The high school class that has given me the most value over the years was Theater.

Heck, even talking college, I was an English major, and that's proved absolutely invaluable in my job as a brewmaster. As someone doing a generalist job where I need to manage, coordinate, and communicate, I am far better equipped by having a 4-year degree in the arts and a 6-month professional certification, than I would be with a degree in the sciences.

I agree that we should value and respect trades more, but that doesn't mean devaluing or demeaning studying the arts.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
6/26/22 8:29 a.m.

I'm one of those people who taught for 3 years then washed their hands of wanting to deal wiht parents. 4th-8th grade at a Montessori school that extended philosophies up to 8th grade.

The clearest indicator of how well a child was going to do was parent involvement.

Yeah, you got obnoxious, entitled, wealthy parents who raised spoiled brats. That's going to happen. But there are a lot of people who don't have the resources to free them up to provide all the basic needs for their children. So it becomes the schools' and teachers' job to be sure those basic needs are met, instead of being able to focus on just teaching.

Trying to not get political with this - but I honestly think a major problem in wider society is the uncertainty of poverty. There are lots of people who don't have ready access to reliable healthcare. People who work two jobs and still need welfare to make ends meet. If you're in that position, you're not going to have the luxury of valuing educating your children or helping them learn.

Had one student who was very low income and low achieving, who the school was basically giving tuition assistance to the family. She was almost a PITA, but was one of my favorite students. We were a small enough class with two teachers in it that I was able to push her to do things right in a way she hadn't had a teacher do before. She wasn't reading, writing, or doing math at grade level because at some point she'd slipped behind and then just been drug along. I'm pretty sure I'm the first teacher she'd had who handed back a worksheet with a bunch of red on it, and instead of disparaging her said, "You can do better," and worked with her to do that. And she was SO proud when she finally got things right and I told her she'd done a good job.

Her parents wanted her to learn. She wanted to learn. Her parents did not have the spare resources to put her into a position where she could learn in a standard classroom. It was stupidly lucky that they managed to get her into this Montessori school. I'm certain there are a LOT more kids like her out there.

Trying to not get too political with it here, but I honestly think things like a universal healthcare system and better systems that ensure low skilled workers make a living income (not going to argue what those should be here) and have access to safe and affordable housing would allow parents to be responsible for taking care of basic needs of children that have increasingly been pushed onto teachers and schools.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/26/22 9:08 a.m.

I agree with your statement.  If you look around the world to countries that are successful at satisfying the basic needs of its population those should be followed rather than what America has that simply isn't working.  
 I understand the comfort with the familiar.  I also see the real need for change. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/26/22 9:22 a.m.
Beer Baron said:

In reply to frenchyd :

We're talking primary school education here, not college.

The high school class that has given me the most value over the years was Theater.

Heck, even talking college, I was an English major, and that's proved absolutely invaluable in my job as a brewmaster. As someone doing a generalist job where I need to manage, coordinate, and communicate, I am far better equipped by having a 4-year degree in the arts and a 6-month professional certification, than I would be with a degree in the sciences.

I agree that we should value and respect trades more, but that doesn't mean devaluing or demeaning studying the arts.

I'm not talking about college level stuff here.  Nor am I belittling the arts,   Elementary school through 8th grade should act as a sorting out function.  
    Rather than evaluating everyone on an attending college suitability standard which is the currant bias. 
( I have 2 college degrees and I intend to get another in retirement). 
      This can be done relatively easy.  Most ( not all) teachers are members of a union.   The trades would love to train young tradespeople.  All that has to be done is convince the academics currently in charge of American education that there is real value for them in that training.  
 Disruptive kids in class?  Perhaps that student would blossom in a construction setting?  
     Or maybe exposure to the real world at a younger age would help him/ her to understand the value of academics?  
    Maybe in addition to the education that student gets, the productivity of the student could provide a finical reward. Re enforcing  the value of work.  That would be especially beneficial to poorer students.  

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/26/22 9:36 a.m.
ProDarwin said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I wont dispute that there are problems with the way education is structured here in the US.

And that extends up to college as well.

If America is going to succeed without the influx of immigrants that have been the catalyst of our improvement over the decades. 
  We simply need to value  and reward all of our students not just the academically  gifted. ( and the few with exceptional sports talent) 

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
6/26/22 9:47 a.m.
frenchyd said:

If America is going to succeed without the influx of immigrants that have been the catalyst of our improvement over the decades, we simply need to value  and reward all of our students not just the academically  gifted. ( and the few with exceptional sports talent) 

I was pretty academically gifted. I was not rewarded by school except for a handful of classes: theater, choir, senior year English and Physics. All of those were elective or optional classes (only 3 years of English and Science were required).

I think what made those classes great was that the teachers were teaching mostly what they wanted to because they wanted to. They didn't have requirements or pressures to cover a rigid curriculum, they didn't need to pass or babysit students that didn't want to be there.

Having been a teacher, there are very few exceptions where the specific topic is really that important. What's far more important is going through the process of learning and figuring things out. Learning to take stuff apart, understand it, and then put it back together again - whether that is a mechanical thing or an idea.

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE SuperDork
6/26/22 10:52 a.m.

I feel the same Beer Baron; of course no school can adequately prepare you for everything, but while I got the vaunted education in finances and understanding credit I never saw courses on leadership. Worse yet, when my father died when I was in I had no help; my own councilor and homeroom teacher even went to the viewing and neither spent time with me or talked to me more about it, even when I was bullied. When I did was stressed kids do and fought back, they still never showed; school just became a joke, and I had friends who just left working there because it won't change for it's kids despite having the funds to do so. 

Beer Baron said:

Trying to not get too political with it here, but I honestly think things like a universal healthcare system and better systems that ensure low skilled workers make a living income (not going to argue what those should be here) and have access to safe and affordable housing would allow parents to be responsible for taking care of basic needs of children that have increasingly been pushed onto teachers and schools.

One of the most shocking things that I realized in COVID, is that schools anymore are just daycare centers and impromtu social-services for kids. I was in a rich district and I knew kids that were ~3 hours of sleep a night and only ate one solid meal a day at the cafeteria.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/26/22 11:06 a.m.

In reply to Beer Baron :

I've been a teacher and an instructor.        (my punishment for being the challenge I was ).  
    My grades were almost failing but college testing had me in the top 1% of the nation. 
    I know the rewards the academically gifted received. Most of which they seemed oblivious to.   Chief among those is not being stuck in classes with challenges like me.  
     I learned a great deal though. First I learned not to be a bore.  Those teachers who did the absolute minimum just to get a paycheck.  
 I loved those who taught with passion and love for the subject matter. That's who I patterned my teaching after.  The ones who came into the room excited and spewing out knowledge and information.  They'd glance around the room to take attendance while listening to a student.  They knew and cared about each one so they didn't have to waste 10 minutes taking attendance. 
     Who would actually listen to the student and correct without demeaning.  Grasp a different approach from someone and shape the discussion  to inform rather than show off his knowledge. 

fanfoy
fanfoy SuperDork
6/26/22 8:20 p.m.
aircooled said:

If I can assume to paraphrase you a bit:

   It's important, maybe critical, to let people (kids) fail sometimes.

Most times, you learn far more from failures than successes.  It's also useful for not spending huge resources on a lost causes (they will "graduate" knowing almost nothing anyway)

Not failure, but simply letting them live the consequences of their actions. 

The distinction is important because by assigning failure to certain people that do not conform to the educational system, we are sabotaging a LOT of young people. I have met many brilliant, brilliant construction workers that thought they were failures because they did not do well in school. They had ADHD, dyslexia, or simply didn't see the point in what was shown to them. But they are brilliant at what they do. And when they finally realize it, they become great successes. But the school system often sets them back many years.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
6/26/22 9:50 p.m.
Beer Baron said:

The clearest indicator of how well a child was going to do was parent involvement.

Yeah, you got obnoxious, entitled, wealthy parents who raised spoiled brats. That's going to happen. But there are a lot of people who don't have the resources to free them up to provide all the basic needs for their children. So it becomes the schools' and teachers' job to be sure those basic needs are met, instead of being able to focus on just teaching.

Trying to not get political with this - but I honestly think a major problem in wider society is the uncertainty of poverty. There are lots of people who don't have ready access to reliable healthcare. People who work two jobs and still need welfare to make ends meet. If you're in that position, you're not going to have the luxury of valuing educating your children or helping them learn.

Trying to not get too political with it here, but I honestly think things like a universal healthcare system and better systems that ensure low skilled workers make a living income (not going to argue what those should be here) and have access to safe and affordable housing would allow parents to be responsible for taking care of basic needs of children that have increasingly been pushed onto teachers and schools.

Yes to all of this. My wife's school is a title 1 school. Quite a few of the kids are in terrible situations. I am sure most of the kids have parents working multiple jobs. During Covid, it was a struggle for them to have internet for many of the kids.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/27/22 9:59 a.m.
fanfoy said:
aircooled said:

If I can assume to paraphrase you a bit:

   It's important, maybe critical, to let people (kids) fail sometimes.

Most times, you learn far more from failures than successes.  It's also useful for not spending huge resources on a lost causes (they will "graduate" knowing almost nothing anyway)

Not failure, but simply letting them live the consequences of their actions. 

The distinction is important because by assigning failure to certain people that do not conform to the educational system, we are sabotaging a LOT of young people. I have met many brilliant, brilliant construction workers that thought they were failures because they did not do well in school. They had ADHD, dyslexia, or simply didn't see the point in what was shown to them. But they are brilliant at what they do. And when they finally realize it, they become great successes. But the school system often sets them back many years.

Well said;   I'm a classic example.  I thought teachers should be intelligent and interested in teaching.  I found out they were the exception. As a result I constantly challenged the dull and lazy.  Result? Bad grades by some, great grades by others.   

 What saved me was the US Navy.  They proved to me what I could accomplish if I put the effort in.  
   For those who don't want the service alternative, there are the trades.   

 

 

 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/27/22 10:03 a.m.

Up Date!  First day of summer school.  Obviously the teacher shortage  is impacting even Teachers aides.  
  Only 2 aides for SPED kids.  Normally it's one for each kid.  Just unloading kids took a very long time due to that shortage.  The district pays for waiting time.  
    Further update;   3 SPED busses were kept there over an hour because with only Two Aides they couldn't handle more.  ( average 6 per bus )    Eventually the district paid the drivers to walk their bus load in.  They reported total chaos before they even added their students.    

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/27/22 6:50 p.m.
93EXCivic said:
Beer Baron said:

The clearest indicator of how well a child was going to do was parent involvement.

Yeah, you got obnoxious, entitled, wealthy parents who raised spoiled brats. That's going to happen. But there are a lot of people who don't have the resources to free them up to provide all the basic needs for their children. So it becomes the schools' and teachers' job to be sure those basic needs are met, instead of being able to focus on just teaching.

Trying to not get political with this - but I honestly think a major problem in wider society is the uncertainty of poverty. There are lots of people who don't have ready access to reliable healthcare. People who work two jobs and still need welfare to make ends meet. If you're in that position, you're not going to have the luxury of valuing educating your children or helping them learn.

Trying to not get too political with it here, but I honestly think things like a universal healthcare system and better systems that ensure low skilled workers make a living income (not going to argue what those should be here) and have access to safe and affordable housing would allow parents to be responsible for taking care of basic needs of children that have increasingly been pushed onto teachers and schools.

Yes to all of this. My wife's school is a title 1 school. Quite a few of the kids are in terrible situations. I am sure most of the kids have parents working multiple jobs. During Covid, it was a struggle for them to have internet for many of the kids.

During the Pandemic many bus drivers brought meals around to students. I saw how it made a serious difference to those who needed it. While some ate just a few items and threw away  most of the meal.   
    I didn't care.  
  Those who needed the meals it really made a serious improvement. 

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
6/27/22 7:08 p.m.

I had a student who was brilliant but would never have made it in a traditional school. Kid was probably slightly on the spectrum, but not enough that he would have been in special ed.

He was *brilliant* at making connections, but could *not* think linearly.

His reading was... okay. He pretty much could not write an essay, because he had SO MANY THOUGHTS and could not put them in order.

Gave him a graphic short story (written by Neil Gaiman, so real literary stuff) and he was noticing details and making connections that *I* missed. As a 7th grader. Similar story with movies or theater.

Last I heard, he was a Navy nuke.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/30/22 1:51 p.m.

In reply to Beer Baron :

  My nephew  became the same thing ( Nuc) when he went in the Navy   

I only know the Navy but they are absolutely excellent in figuring out talents and skills you might have.   
Electronics is one subject  matter I had no prior interest in but when I took the classes I was surprisingly decent.  
I hope all the services do as well. 

RX Reven'
RX Reven' GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
6/30/22 5:49 p.m.
Beer Baron said:
Learning to take stuff apart, understand it, and then put it back together again

Learning to take stuff apart - Check

Understand it - Check

Put it back together again -

Nervous GIFs | Tenor

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/4/22 5:47 p.m.

I graduated from high school with a 1.8 GPA. I got a D in American History, while I had a 97 test average, the highest score of anyone in any class.

They were going to fail me after calculating points off for unexcused absences. I had read the book the first week of school, so when I realized the the teacher would read the book to us Monday to Thursday, then give us a multiple choice test on Fridays. I would come on Fridays and take the test. 
 

I don't remember anyone trying to help me get on track, just getting punished for missing classes.

14 years later, I started college. Finished up with my doctorate in veterinary medicine. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
8/15/22 4:32 p.m.

We are all comparing our successes based on academic   achievements.  
  What about the carpenter who provided a home and needed requirement for his wife and children. 

He sent those with academic inclination on to college and helped the others make a living.  
   The plumber, electrician  etc. etc etc. 

       We need mechanics taught in a free school, body shop people, not just college bound students.         

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
8/15/22 6:11 p.m.

You need to make trades sexy.

Good luck with that. 

We've been promoting University as the supreme goal since, what, WWII? Down-playing trades as the dumping ground for the inept (and then wonder why the tradespeople are so inept). Highschool focuses on getting you to University, not a career path, certainly not a trade.

You're going to need to change society. Good luck.

ddavidv
ddavidv UltimaDork
8/16/22 7:46 a.m.

I went to school in the 1970s/early 80s. I was a 'gifted' student. Never had to do homework. Passed tests without studying but didn't get great grades because I didn't care/see the point.

I wanted to take auto shop (duh!). Was told I couldn't because I was "too smart for that". Pushed to take college prep courses.

Well, joke is on them. Never went to college. Stumbled my way into a career that requires my automotive knowledge but without getting my hands dirty. Though not a six figure income, I do pretty well. 

Other than the generic "smart, so go to college" guidance the school personnel had no idea what to do with me. Or, didn't care, since my bored self was frequently disruptive. I can't imagine things are any better today with all the administrative distractions teachers now have.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
8/16/22 8:20 a.m.

You're telling my story.   I tried making a living fixing cars.  Quickly learned there were a lot more profitable jobs out there.  And wound up in sales.   

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