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Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
2/18/21 1:08 p.m.

In reply to 11GTCS :

I'm down for green energy but times like this show their faults. I'd prefer nuclear, has a bad rep from 20-50 years ago but technology now can make it safe. I've also always sad it'd be much smarter to run power underground. No ice build to pull down the lines, hurricanes can't blow them down. Not sure about the generators though..

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/18/21 1:17 p.m.
11GTCS said:

In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :

Y'all definitely approach power grid and utilities management from a different perspective then the rest of the country for sure.   In fairness, it's tough to justify the costs to design for extremes of this order when it's such a small percentage of probability.   Until weeks like this of course.  

 

 

Its really not that hard to justify, though. There wasn't that much snow and ice. It was a lot for Texas standards, but it is not by any stretch unheard of - to the point that you probably can't even call this a 100 year storm. Based on what I see in the sources below, I'd say that if I was putting this on a risk chart, it would be extremely high impact, and low-but-not-zero chance of it happening. In fact, I'd put it at 100% chance of it happening on a long enough time frame - that time frame certainly being within the lifespan of an electrical grid. 


Of course, there could be valid reasons beyond what I'm assuming.

 

https://abc13.com/winter-storm-texas-houston-weather-snow-in-does-it/2753082/ 

https://www.onlyinyourstate.com/texas/winter-storms-tx/ 

https://www.iweathernet.com/dfw-weather-records/top-20-snowstorms-dfw 

 

Woody (Forum Supportum)
Woody (Forum Supportum) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/18/21 1:19 p.m.

In reply to golfduke :

Don't use power strips to supply heaters, refrigerators or other high amp appliances.

They're not designed for that kind of load. They will overheat and catch fire.

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/18/21 1:19 p.m.
Subscriber-unavailabile said:

In reply to 11GTCS :

I'm down for green energy but times like this show their faults. I'd prefer nuclear, has a bad rep from 20-50 years ago but technology now can make it safe. I've also always sad it'd be much smarter to run power underground. No ice build to pull down the lines, hurricanes can't blow them down. Not sure about the generators though..

It wasn't just green energy showing its faults though. THe coal plants shut down. It was unpreparedness across the board, from what I'm able to ascertain - high likelihood I'm completely wrong, and 100% likelihood I've missed something obvious with that statement. 

11GTCS
11GTCS HalfDork
2/18/21 1:37 p.m.

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

I think failure to "weatherize" the power generating equipment is the at the heart of the issue regardless of whether a "thermal" (natural gas, oil, coal, nuclear) or "renewable" (mainly wind and solar in Texas) source was used for generating the power.    

Coal storage piles froze to the point the machinery couldn't transfer it into the boilers, gas lines froze (I heard not buried deeply enough), at least one of the nuclear power plants had to shut down due to instrumentation freezing.   Wind turbine blades can be equipped with deicing heaters but most were not equipped with them. Solar panels don't generate a lot of power under a blanket of snow.   Like many widescale disasters there are lots of contributing factors.  I know the power plant near Bryan has an open cooling pond for the condenser water for the generators. With overnight temperatures in the single digits for several days it wouldn't surprise me if it had iced up. Cooling towers don't work so well under these conditions either, we have all kinds of accessories up here on the HVAC cooling towers that need to run in winter conditions and we still have icing problems in severe weather.

We're all going to have to figure this out in the relatively short term as it sure looks like electric vehicles, etc. are coming our collective way soon.   Our present infrastructure is aging and won't play well with an electric vehicle / charging station in everyone's garage. 

jharry3
jharry3 GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
2/18/21 1:40 p.m.

Gas wells that supply the generators were freezing up at the well head chokes. 

Joule Thompson effect cooling at the choke, because of the pressure drop,  freezes the wet gas  and the ice plugs up the flow.  Normal temps this don't happen. 

Heat tracing is added to well chokes where pressure drops normally predict J-T effect freezing but this is not the normal case for these Texas gas wells. 

So on top of all the other stresses the cold snap put on the Texas, system even the turbines that could run were starved of fuel.

Doubtful actual gas pipe lines froze because pipeline gas has been dehydrated to less than 1 part in 10,000. Reporters just misunderstanding the point of gas line, freezing and the why,  that reported pipe lines freezing.

11GTCS
11GTCS HalfDork
2/18/21 1:46 p.m.

In reply to jharry3 :

Quoted for truth.  High flow rates that cause high pressure drop in gas / air piping systems will indeed cause available moisture to freeze up.   It was a contributing factor to the loss of a US Navy submarine in the early 1960's and resulted in a complete redesign of a critical piping system among other things.

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
2/18/21 2:05 p.m.

Reality of all of this is people can point fingers and blame whoever, but truth of the matter this isn't a typical weather storm for us. If anything it brings out how spoiled humans are relying on water/power, constant fully stocked stores. If anything this should be eye opening experience that shows how much we need to be prepared to take care of ourselves. Doubt anyone will though..

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
2/18/21 3:04 p.m.

In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :

Many of the people affected by this, and all of us in Houston, should be prepared for a week without electricity anyway. That should be a way of life due to hurricane season. Yes, cold was a HUGE factor this time, but panic buying food is a yearly occurrence for us and it's always the same. If people can't be prepared for hurricanes, they're not going to be prepared for a blizzard. 

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
2/18/21 3:16 p.m.

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

I bought couple of boxes of MREs few years ago as a last resort situation. We typically have 3-6 days of food on hand at any given time. Water is biggest thing, easy to think 3 cases is enough which in reality isn't. Thankfully my job is in beverage distribution, got 6 cases earlier, was allowed to take as much as I want. Company started giving pallets of water to local police/fire departments so they can distribute it to communities in need. Glad I work for good people.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
2/18/21 3:57 p.m.
Subscriber-unavailabile said:

In reply to 11GTCS :

I'm down for green energy but times like this show their faults. I'd prefer nuclear, has a bad rep from 20-50 years ago but technology now can make it safe. I've also always sad it'd be much smarter to run power underground. No ice build to pull down the lines, hurricanes can't blow them down. Not sure about the generators though..

I mean to be fair there are countries with much harsher climates that have a much higher percentage of renewables providing their power and only like 24% of Texas's power is from wind. I'd say it is more of a failure for the power companies to prepare then a failure of any one type of power source.

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/18/21 3:58 p.m.
Subscriber-unavailabile said:

Reality of all of this is people can point fingers and blame whoever, but truth of the matter this isn't a typical weather storm for us. If anything it brings out how spoiled humans are relying on water/power, constant fully stocked stores. If anything this should be eye opening experience that shows how much we need to be prepared to take care of ourselves. Doubt anyone will though..

I agree with all of this, but the bolded part is something that I (no skin in the game, other than empathy for those who are freezing/hungry/thirsty) think needs to be addressed. Pointing fingers and blaming doesn't really help anything, but the root cause needs to be addressed whether there is finger pointing or not - the fact that it isn't typical weather does not apply here. It happened. Typical or not, it is possible. And over a long enough time frame, I'd argue that it is definitely going to happen. I'd be curious to have an Actuary weigh in - I'd think that if it isn't addressed, insurers will pull out of the market as we are seeing these storms happen with increasing regularity across the world. Possibly large employers, too, if you look at it on a long enough timeline. 
 

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/18/21 3:59 p.m.
Subscriber-unavailabile said:

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

I bought couple of boxes of MREs few years ago as a last resort situation. We typically have 3-6 days of food on hand at any given time. Water is biggest thing, easy to think 3 cases is enough which in reality isn't. Thankfully my job is in beverage distribution, got 6 cases earlier, was allowed to take as much as I want. Company started giving pallets of water to local police/fire departments so they can distribute it to communities in need. Glad I work for good people.

Are you eating the MREs yet? Are they somewhat palatable?

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/18/21 4:01 p.m.
93EXCivic said:
Subscriber-unavailabile said:

In reply to 11GTCS :

I'm down for green energy but times like this show their faults. I'd prefer nuclear, has a bad rep from 20-50 years ago but technology now can make it safe. I've also always sad it'd be much smarter to run power underground. No ice build to pull down the lines, hurricanes can't blow them down. Not sure about the generators though..

I mean to be fair there are countries with much harsher climates that have a much higher percentage of renewables providing their power and only like 24% of Texas's power is from wind. I'd say it is more of a failure for the power companies to prepare then a failure of any one type of power source.

Right, we have green energy here in MI, where the weather sucks sometimes, and I'm sure there's some in Ohio which gets more freezing rain than we do.  It's not about the green energy, it's about being robust to weather.  And I thought I saw that there was a similar storm a decade ago showing that Texas has a risk for crappy weather....

FWIW, I'm pro-nuke, too.  But I think the blame is mis-directed given that there are much harsher places on the planet that don't have issues.

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
2/18/21 4:32 p.m.

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

Haven't had to use them for emergencies before, but we've sampled several. We open 1-2 a year for fun, kids get big kick out of it. Typical have a main meal, side, either cracker/bread/cookie, sometimes cheese spread/peanut butter, sometimes candy, some sort of drink/coffe powder, all have spoon, seasoning pack,gum, TP and matches. Oh and heating pack to warm food.

yupididit
yupididit PowerDork
2/18/21 4:52 p.m.

In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :

MRE's, I rather go a few days without eating than having to eat those again crying

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
2/18/21 5:03 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

I hear ya, there so so, that's why their put up for emergencies.

Over course of the day been slowly chipping away at the 2 inches of ice, might need new shovel 

Karacticus
Karacticus GRM+ Memberand Dork
2/18/21 5:07 p.m.
Subscriber-unavailabile said:

In reply to yupididit :

I hear ya, there so so, that's why their put up for emergencies.

Over course of the day been slowly chipping away at the 2 inches of ice, might need new shovel 

My father-in-law ruined at least two shovels of mine in exactly the same way.  No excuse for that here where we can just get salt to melt the ice.

yupididit said:

In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :

MRE's, I rather go a few days without eating than having to eat those again crying

Get them at REI. Delicious. Really. Expensive, but delicious.

 

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
2/18/21 6:01 p.m.

In reply to Karacticus :

Can't use salt, proud of my pos rust free zx2 with 231k miles on it 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
2/18/21 6:17 p.m.

For a bit of perspective:  The typical human can live for 3 weeks without food.

  • An article in Archiv Fur KriminologieTrusted Source states the body can survive for 8 to 21 days without food and water and up to two months if there’s access to an adequate water intake.

I suspect the typical modern human can live for about 8 hours before they claim they are "starving".

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
2/18/21 6:30 p.m.

In reply to aircooled :

I get very hangry. You wouldn't like me when I'm hangry. 

11GTCS
11GTCS HalfDork
2/18/21 6:33 p.m.
mazdeuce - Seth said:

In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :

Many of the people affected by this, and all of us in Houston, should be prepared for a week without electricity anyway. That should be a way of life due to hurricane season. Yes, cold was a HUGE factor this time, but panic buying food is a yearly occurrence for us and it's always the same. If people can't be prepared for hurricanes, they're not going to be prepared for a blizzard. 

I agree with you and it’s a very good point of comparison in terms of the level in which day to day life can be completely disrupted.   With that said there are a lot of people who’ve probably dealt with the hurricane side of the equation (extended power loss) OK but have no clue of how to deal with the freezing issues.   I’ve had a whole lifetime of practice for that because of where I’ve lived, this hit Texas with only a few days notice.  My son was teaching a bunch of his friends what to do with their cars ahead of the storm (keep the wipers up so they don’t get stuck in the ice and rip, start them up and let them warm, drive slowly and stay off the brakes when it’s slick, etc.), they’ve never had to deal with it.  His GF grew up outside of Dallas and while she’s seen snow before it wasn’t anything like this. 

There’s also a group of people who aren’t hands on like most of us are and need to get step by step instructions on what to do.  That may happen with the hurricanes, I don’t think it did with this cold blast.   I don’t envy the cleanup and repairs some of you are facing, it’s been really sad to see some of what the news has been showing.  Stay strong, I’m seeing warmer temperatures in the forecast for the weekend so better days are coming. 

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
2/18/21 8:39 p.m.

For those that are interested 

Subscriber-unavailabile
Subscriber-unavailabile HalfDork
2/18/21 8:39 p.m.

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