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1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
12/7/20 9:38 a.m.
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:
Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) said:

Interesting read.

Throughout the entire article they kept saying natural gas or gas. I wonder where propane falls. We have a gas stove/electric oven and gas logs but both are propane fired. 

since natural gas and propane are very close in  many ways, I bet their emissions are similar too. 

Agree.  Most of the information I found said that propane was a component of natural gas.  Most of the so-called differences centered around means of delivery and portability.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
12/7/20 9:39 a.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

He does have a A2A heat exchanger, but uses geo thermal for heat.  Which cost an ungodly ammount of money for him due to his house being built on solid granite..  Gotta love the rocky parts of CT...  

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
12/7/20 9:42 a.m.
1988RedT2 said:
 

I know that mine is useless because it's built right in to the bottom of my microwave oven!

Mine is vented and under the microwave.   I've heard these things help.. but havne't used one. https://microvisorhood.com/

 

 

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
12/7/20 9:51 a.m.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

That thing looks like a simple extender.  It still just filters the air and blows it back into the kitchen.  Look above your microwave (probably a cabinet there).  If you can't see an exhaust duct, then you're not removing anything but the little bit of grease that sticks to the filter.

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/7/20 10:03 a.m.
1988RedT2 said:
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

Also, a huge percentage of vent hoods are not actually ventilated. They just filter air through a poor quality filter and return it to the room. These less expensive unvented hoods are vastly more common in lower income homes. 

Good point.  Many homeowners may be completely clueless as to whether or not their range hood actually exhausts cooking fumes via a duct to the outdoors, or simply runs them through a rudimentary filter and blows them back in their face.  The latter is far more common.

I know that mine is useless because it's built right in to the bottom of my microwave oven!

Mine is through the microwave, but it vents outside. 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
12/7/20 10:14 a.m.

In reply to 1988RedT2 :

Mine is vented to the outside through the microwave.  I missunderstood your comment. 

Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude)
Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) MegaDork
12/7/20 10:32 a.m.
1988RedT2 said:
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:
Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) said:

Interesting read.

Throughout the entire article they kept saying natural gas or gas. I wonder where propane falls. We have a gas stove/electric oven and gas logs but both are propane fired. 

since natural gas and propane are very close in  many ways, I bet their emissions are similar too. 

Agree.  Most of the information I found said that propane was a component of natural gas.  Most of the so-called differences centered around means of delivery and portability.

I did some digging. One is cleaner than the other depending on who answers the question. Natural gas proponents say NG is cleaner and safer. Propane companies claim the same thing. 

I haven't found any unbiased information on which is more environmentally friendly or producing fewer harmful emissions beyond natural gas being a greenhouse gas until it's burned. Propane, on the other hand, is not a significant greenhouse gas before or after combustion. Propane does produces more co2 per btu than natural gas. 

 

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 SuperDork
12/7/20 10:53 a.m.

This makes me glad my house is drafty. Really drafty. I love my gas stove, and have long suspected that sealing up the living space was a bad idea.

dropstep
dropstep UberDork
12/7/20 12:48 p.m.

My drafty house saved my life after my home inspector claimed we had a brand new furnace and it was just a new cover over one with a giant hole in the heat exchanger. We now have several carbon monoxide detectors and the only gas thing left is the heat. Water heater and stovetop are now electric. 

ebelements
ebelements Reader
12/9/20 1:01 p.m.

The only benefit of a gas range that I'm aware of is the ability to quickly kill the heat entering a pan. Which, really only matters if you're melting or searing something in a thin wall pan.

As someone who finds great joy in generalization, hyperbole, and being needlessly reductive, I say: just pay attention to what you're cooking. A heat source is a heat source. Buy what you like, but that 48" Wolf range makes you a better cook in the same way that your lifted Wrangler makes you better than a Civic at getting groceries. 

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
12/9/20 1:31 p.m.

I have all propane appliances, including a fridge, interesting article

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
12/9/20 1:47 p.m.

I work in natural gas. Our product is cheap. There are somethings with gas you can't do with electric. Fireplaces. Outdoor fire rings. Grills. 

Inside the house, if the cost to install and operate were the same, electric would be an easy choice. If I could pay the same amount per BTU for electric as gas for my water heating (both domestic and heat source), I'd go electric simply because of the flexibility of install. Not having to run a vent is nice.

 

In the kitchen, induction is rad. Makes cleaning much easier. Makes boiling water much faster. A lot more flexibility in where you locate the cooktop. 

 

Why electric is so expensive? No idea. I don't think it will be forever. When it finally matches gas in per BTU cost, I'll start looking to make a career switch, but even after that point it'll take decades for people to swap out gas furnaces, stoves, hot water heaters, etc to make the switch. 

newrider3
newrider3 Reader
12/9/20 2:55 p.m.

I just finished a new home this year, and my municipality is pretty strict on fuel burning appliances. Gas ranges must have a range hood that vents to outdoors with a minimum CFM requirement. Every other fuel burning appliance must be direct vented, meaning a totally sealed system that gets both intake air and exhaust outside the house. In my case this is a boiler for heat and hot water, and a gas log fireplace (stove). Applies to forced air heating furnaces and conventional water heaters as well. I'm under a County building department in an unincorporated area, so I can imagine the requirements would be even tighter under a City building department like Boulder or Golden. 

 

Proper ventilation is absolutely mandatory with the tightness of modern construction methods. Along with kickass bath fans and a bath fan in the laundry area, we have a HRV (heat recovery ventilator) that can be set to run constantly or change 20 to 40% of the indoor air per hour. It works amazing. As soon as it was installed and running, even before construction was complete, the house was completely devoid of any offgassing/chemical/"new construction house" smells. 

There is no benefit to having a drafty house, you're throwing money out the window. "Build tight, ventilate right". 
Everyone should have CO detectors in any case. Mandatory for new construction, built right into the smokes these days. If you have an old house and don't know how old the smoke detectors are, chances are it's time to replace. 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
12/9/20 3:25 p.m.

In reply to 1988RedT2 :

How complicated is that problem to solve?  Here's a gas cook top ( first picture ) with a vent to draw off fumes and cooking orders. ( second picture ) 

This  is on an Island  rather than an exterior wall. So it can be solved. Granted it's a Wolf Cooktop so it isn't cheap but vents come in a variety of price levels. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/13/20 9:09 a.m.

I suck at cooking, but I suck less with gas.  And the probabilty of my having small children in the house is the same as a fish riding a bicycle.

Error404
Error404 Reader
12/13/20 11:17 a.m.

In reply to ebelements :

Gas ranges (and ovens) don't cycle like electric coils. The last rental I was in, before buying a place with gas, scorched through the enamel on a dutch oven that, admittedly, shouldn't have been used on direct heat like that but we were renting for a reason. It also scorched the seasoning on my cast irons in a little circle the same size as the the center of the glass top "coil". The outside edge of my cast iron skillet was never as hot as the center because the cheapo range dumped all the heat in the middle at full blast and then cycled off, then full blast, then off. The oven was worse, it was 30 degrees slow at 350 and if you didn't micromanage it you would find that it was as good as holding temperature as a seive is at holding water. Old fashioned physical coils are a little better but considerably slower to react than gas. I haven't cooked on induction.

I'm sure there are plenty of expensive electric units out there that can maintain temp and evenly distribute heat but all of my experience with electric simply doesn't compare to the inexpensive gas unit in my kitchen. YMMV.

 

After skimming that article, pre-coffee mind you, it leaves me wondering when California is going to just up and ban everything that doesn't come off the government truck that delivers your government approved life products on a government approved schedule (void once your dollar-density reaches a government approved ratio)

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