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tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
1/25/23 11:14 a.m.

 

Posted intentionally without comment. Not meant for discussion necessarily, just because some of us will benefit from hearing it.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/25/23 12:52 p.m.

Holy berkeley.

Standing berkeleying ovation in my office with tears in my eyes.

Amen.  I'm so blessed that I was never taught that tears, or feelings, or acting, or dancing, or playing with my sister's dolls was "not for boys."

singleslammer
singleslammer PowerDork
1/25/23 2:23 p.m.

Very worth watching. He touches a lot of things that will likely resonate with many people. 

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
1/25/23 4:35 p.m.
pheller said:

As a parent, I find it interesting how there is a lot of interest in making boys more emotional and expressive, and how crying is good. 

That struck me as the easy tag line.

The heart of the message I took away was the need for men to feel loved unconditionally. To be supported emotionally and in their endeavors.

The line that hit home for me was how most men will only ever feel unconditional love from their mother, and maybe not even then.

I cry. But unconditional love and support...?

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
1/25/23 6:36 p.m.

Yea sorry I responded more to Curtis than to the youtube video. I didn't want to detract from that conversation so I removed my previous comments. 

 

 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/26/23 6:58 a.m.

Wow. Thank you for sharing that!

ZOO (Forum Supporter)
ZOO (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
1/26/23 7:00 a.m.

Thanks for sharing this -- it will be part of my upcoming Grade 10 syllabus in English.

ddavidv
ddavidv UltimaDork
1/26/23 7:41 a.m.

Placemotorsports
Placemotorsports GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
1/26/23 7:49 a.m.

"Remembering what it was like being a boy running toward the goal"  That's good stuff right there.  Powerful words

Apis Mellifera
Apis Mellifera Dork
1/26/23 7:53 a.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/26/23 10:30 a.m.
ddavidv said:

Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way...

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/26/23 10:38 a.m.

In reply to Apis Mellifera :

i have heard the name Bukowski but that's the first time i've been exposed to his work.  thank you.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
1/26/23 10:43 a.m.

Skateboarding culture - at least around here - is one of the best places I've seen modeling healthy masculinity.

People talk about being afraid or not wanting to try a move. They aren't judged. Quite the opposite.

When someone stands at the top of a ramp lining up to drop in for the first time, they often express that they're scared. They aren't mocked. Pretty much everyone goes, "Yep! It's absolutely terrifying. We know. We've been there."

They are congratulated for overcoming that fear, but the fear is recognized and respected.

Watched a kid brake his arm at a park. He was bawling his eyes out. Three men rushed over to help him (his dad, myself, and another stranger). He kept saying how much it hurt and that he was scared. There was no "man up" or telling him to start crying. Just affirming that he was doing a good job handling the situation.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/26/23 11:54 a.m.

In reply to Beer Baron :

I've been in a heavily male-dominated industry for over 40 years. I almost never directly hear anything like "man up". However, its clear there are unspoken expectations. Like men shouldn't actually speak up when they are afraid.  Stronger in cultures that have stronger "machismo" attitudes. 
 

And honesty, I hear an enormous amount of criticism about "maleness" from women. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/26/23 11:55 a.m.

His phrase "who's providing for the providers?" really hit home. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/26/23 12:25 p.m.

In reply to SV reX :

I've seen that unspoken expectation a lot

Being completely honest, I'm pretty hardcore feminist, and that is a label given to me by the founder of a small feminism non-profit.  I rather strongly believe that part of the reason for our division and conflict is due to the fact that traditionally we have been raising kids to act a certain way.  Even if it's not explicitly taught by parents, it's implicit in society.  If we didn't overly gender the way we raise children, I think we would have far less toxicity surrounding gender.

j_tso
j_tso Dork
1/26/23 12:51 p.m.

Vice Debates can be hit or miss, but I found this one on maculinity open and respectful.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/26/23 1:10 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I also consider myself a rather strong feminist, but that can mean a lot of things...

I am a defender of women's capabilities, abilities, strengths, and their right to be compensated for their skills equally with men.

I am not in favor of undermining men and making their place in society undefined, insecure, or unsafe to make things "equal". (I think that is the message of that poem)
 

Until the time comes when men have ovaries, we will never be equal.   

Toyman!
Toyman! GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/26/23 1:26 p.m.

That is an interesting perspective. I'm not sure I fully understand it because the world I grew up in wasn't toxic. My father taught me to be vulnerable when possible, strong when necessary, and to understand that the only cheerleader anyone truly has is themselves and the family they choose. Expecting the world to care for or about you only puts the world in control of your emotions and situations. Control should be reserved for yourself.

I won't say I never have doubts, but at a young age, I was given the confidence to move past them and the ability to deal with the consequences of being right and wrong. 

I won't say I never hurt, but at a young age, I was taught how and when to express myself and move past the hurt. How to communicate those hurts in a constructive way when possible and how to deal with them and not be consumed by them when it wasn't. 

I have tried to pass that on to my children. While the men are masculine, they aren't oppressive. While the women are feminine, they are not submissive. Regardless of their gender they were given confidence in themselves and the knowledge that they could do anything they put their minds to. They are each 100% their own person. Capable of making decisions and living with the consequences of their actions. Capable of working through emotions without losing control of themselves. And most importantly, capable of asking for help when situations get beyond their control.  

So while it is absolutely important to teach a boy how to cry, it is equally or possibly more important to teach him when to cry. 

 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
1/26/23 1:37 p.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Apis Mellifera :

i have heard the name Bukowski but that's the first time i've been exposed to his work.  thank you.

I love Charles Bukowski. Personally my favorite of his poems is "The Strongest of the Strange."

 

Also love his quote. Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must live.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
1/26/23 1:39 p.m.

OK I am going to hesitantly comment. While I do, I want to make sure I cover some ground here. I don't want to force my own beliefs, especially on this very touchy subject, on others. That poem was built around emotions, and certainly we've all had a varied background.

 

Men and women are and forever will be different. I am happy to be a man. Some of that poem really spoke to me, "Nobody provides the providers with provisions " and "nobody checks on the strong ones" are two of my favorites. I do not think that this sentiment in any way diminished what masculinity is or ought to be. I think we, as a society, tend to think of masculinity as tyranny, and that's not right. That's the way my Grandfather (just one of them) ran the house in 1955. Now the pendulum (for lack of a more precise analogy) has swung around to the point where I get scowled at for holding the door sometimes (although a lot less in SC than in NY).

 

Men are simultaneously required to have zero needs, emotions, cares of their own, but to provide for the emotional needs, emotions and cares of those around them. "Yet the expectation is to constantly be displaying the strength and love That the world is hesitant in conveying We’re expected to have a thick skin But get judged if it turns into a hard shell". Nobody cares if I feel bad, in fact I might get scowled at or demeaned even by my wife for having a negative feeling about something, but I am also simultaneously required to be able to assess and accommodate anyone's emotional state just by walking into the room with them, or I'm a fool who has no emotional empathy. I've been told that I can't sense emotions because I only have "like five". 

 

So that's where it hit me.

 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/26/23 2:06 p.m.

Over 20 years ago, I found my greatest strength to be vulnerability. I learned how to open a conversation by risking putting myself on the line. I learned that my opinions and feelings were not the center of things. I learned how important it is to be able to cry, to show my emotions, to listen, and to be interdependent on others. 
 

Unfortunately, it didn't always go well. There were times when people were afraid of me because I was too open, and it made them uncomfortable. There were times when family members accused me of malintent because they didn't understand my motivations. It contributed to the unraveling of my marriage not because vulnerability is wrong, but because my wife was afraid of the times when I really needed to depend on her. 
 

Im not afraid to be vulnerable. I am emotionally mature.  But I find a lot of societal pressure when my willingness to be vulnerable collides with other people's expectations and their fear and discomfort with being honest and vulnerable.

thatsnowinnebago
thatsnowinnebago GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/26/23 2:14 p.m.
SV reX said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I also consider myself a rather strong feminist, but that can mean a lot of things...

I am a defender of women's capabilities, abilities, strengths, and their right to be compensated for their skills equally with men.

That's precisely what feminism is supposed to be. Bringing women up to where they should be, not dragging men down. It's not a zero sum game. So, in my opinion, you're doing exactly what we all should be doing.

Toyman!
Toyman! GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/26/23 2:18 p.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

Other than the family I choose, I expect the world to ignore my feelings. I also, for the most part, ignore the world's feelings. What you see is what you get and I really don't care if you like what you see. I don't look to the world to validate my thoughts or feelings. berkeley 'em, hold the door and let them scowl. 

By the same token, I am not empathic at all. I don't pretend to be. You want a shoulder to cry on, you better tell me. I will pat your back, tell you everything is OK, and then happily bring down the rain on whoever caused the pain. This causes my wife and me problems on occasion. She wants me to be telepathic and know instantly what the problem is. I'm not good at just commiseration and usually, that's all she wants. 

I guess my point is, be you. Be the best you that you can be. The world will either accept it or not. If they don't, berkeley 'em, keep holding the door. 

You have a family here that will love you and accept you as you are. We are, in our own way each other's support group. Just understand that we are all doers. Don't expect to share something without 100 opinions on how to solve the problem. wink

 

 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
1/26/23 3:44 p.m.
thatsnowinnebago said:
SV reX said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I also consider myself a rather strong feminist, but that can mean a lot of things...

I am a defender of women's capabilities, abilities, strengths, and their right to be compensated for their skills equally with men.

That's precisely what feminism is supposed to be. Bringing women up to where they should be, not dragging men down. It's not a zero sum game. So, in my opinion, you're doing exactly what we all should be doing.

I agree. 
 

But that's not the way it is playing out society wide, and men are being damaged in the process. That's pretty much what that entire poem is about, as I hear it. 

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