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Toyman01
Toyman01 MegaDork
10/2/18 9:25 a.m.

Anyone tried it?

Success?

Failure? 

In the hospital from it? 

After stepping on the scales last week and topping 300 pounds it's time to get serious. 300 was my hard ceiling, that's it. It's all down from here with a target weight of 225.

I'm two days in to keto. Between just not eating much last week and getting the system cleaned out I'm down 8 pounds. Lots of water and zero processed sugar in the diet. 

Any thoughts? Better ideas? Recipes? 

mtn
mtn MegaDork
10/2/18 9:34 a.m.

My wife the Registered Dietitian says this is probably her least favorite diet as it really has a high rebound rate, and people tend to take it as "lets eat all the bacon and eggs!" instead of "lets eat a small amount of chicken and brocolli".

 

I'm going to take a guess that you're probably pretty unhappy right now. You're probably also forgetting things/not thinking clearly. The first stages of a keto diet, at least most that I've seen, limit carbs to a not-dangerous level, but not sufficient to keep the brain happy. Literally. I think my wife was saying at least 60 grams of carbs a day, preferentially in the form of things like rice and beans, vegetables, whole grains, etc. (instead of white bread, twinkies, fried breading) to keep the brain happy. Unless you like being depressed.

 

 

That being said, if it is working, keep it up. Don't forget your fruits and vegetables. I'm doing a similar thing with the fasting diet, but I'm trying to at least get my carbs on a regular basis (not keeping it up for days at a time).

mtn
mtn MegaDork
10/2/18 9:42 a.m.

Oh, even though Atkins has been pretty well replaced with Paleo and Keto, here is an interesting tidbit from a Harvard study of 100k people in 2010, inspired by Atkins: 

“A low-carbohydrate diet based on animal sources was associated with higher all-cause mortality in both men and women, whereas a vegetable-based low-carbohydrate diet was associated with lower all-cause and cardiovascular disease mortality rates.”

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20820038

 

EDIT: One other anecdote, a case study: Dude had a heart attack and erectile dysfunction, and it was surmised to be caused by the Atkins diet--he had no heart conditions or sexual dysfunction prior to it, and even though he lost weight and improved in most metrics, it did bad things. Again, as a caveat, keto does not mean atkins and the atkins diet has changed significantly, and this was just ONE PERSON, but it scares me. (Somewhere in my house we have this full article, if I can find it I'll scan it and load it up)

https://jandonline.org/article/S0002-8223(09)00452-0/fulltext

Tom_Spangler
Tom_Spangler GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/2/18 9:44 a.m.

Is it me, or is there a study or a book or an expert that "proves" every single diet out there is either the best thing in the world or will kill you dead in a week?

Toyman01
Toyman01 MegaDork
10/2/18 9:45 a.m.

The brain is a little foggy atm.

No chance of it becoming a eggs and bacon diet. We had crab, asparagus, and squash last night. I've always eaten a fairly high fat diet so basically all I have had to do is cut the sugars and high carb foods like rice and potatoes. The rest of the diet won't change much. 

Eggs sausage and cheese for breakfast today. Lunch is a small piece of beef, cheese, tuna salad. Diner will be baked chicken and veggies. 

Scottah
Scottah Dork
10/2/18 9:48 a.m.

You’ll find plenty of people/articles online to confirm that it’s either the worst or best thing since sliced bread (that you can’t eat now). 

As others have and will say, do what works for you. In college, I listened to my idiot “I want to be a body builder but I’m fat, lazy, eat what I want, drink and smoke” room mate and only did weight training and high protein. Long story short is I was nearly 250lbs of fat flab. After college I started running and counting calories. I got down to 170lbs and admit I’ve yo yo’d since. This was 10 years ago. Right now I’m back in that range and very happy and healthy. 

Along the way I’ve had so many people try to tell me how to eat, when to eat, how to train etc. etc. I’ve found something that works for me (watching sodium, carbs but not eliminating them, cardio) and I’m sticking to it. 

My biggest piece of advice is that if you get to your goal weight, weigh yourself on the scale every single day. That’s the only way I’ve found I can not slowly creep back up to my old weight by falling into old habits. Good luck sir. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/2/18 9:49 a.m.

I've got a few friends who are on it and working well. They're also pro trainers and ridiculously fit all the time.

Really, when you look at all these diets de jour, you see the same things coming back. Lots of fresh food, especially veggies. When given the choice between more or less processed food, go with less processed. Decrease the amount of sugar. Don't eat more than you need. Drink water.

mtn
mtn MegaDork
10/2/18 9:51 a.m.
Tom_Spangler said:

Is it me, or is there a study or a book or an expert that "proves" every single diet out there is either the best thing in the world or will kill you dead in a week?

Individual studies, sure. That is why you have to look at a LOT of them. I read a ton of these things, even though you wouldn't know it by my diet and my body, but a good peer reviewed study is effectively just one data point. You have to look at a lot of them to get a good idea. 

As a generalization, we've empirically proven that a vegan diet is healthier than a vegetarian diet is healthier than a pescatarian diet is healthier (or on par with) a white-meat diet is healtheir than a red-meat diet. The general tide of studies sways significantly in this direction. And btw, diets are bad. Lifestyle. That is why it is so hard.

Toyman01
Toyman01 MegaDork
10/2/18 9:55 a.m.

In reply to Tom_Spangler :

From the reading I've done in the last week, there is a study to tell you whatever you want to hear. 

jharry3
jharry3 Reader
10/2/18 9:55 a.m.

My wife is an MD who specializes in preventative medicine.  Here is her 2 cents worth that I hear all the time:

Exercise.  Make sure you include that. Work your way up to 1/2 hour at least 4 times a week.  Bike riding is great for low impact exercise.  Or walking is good if not jogging.

Low carbs, lots of vegetables and fruit plus protein.  Cook with olive oil.    Keep bacon as a Saturday morning treat, not a regular thing.  

Minimal pasta and bread and donuts, etc.  Spaghetti squash, not spaghetti.

And cut out sweetened drinks, including high fructose corn syrup, cane sugar, artificial sweeteners.    

High Fructose Corn Syrup is the enemy - its in everything and is the worst thing for a healthy diet, my wife thinks the surge of type 2 diabetes is because of this stuff.   So look at ingredients in processed food.  Better yet, cut out processed, ready made food and cook it fresh.  

Its a lifestyle change of habits...

pinchvalve
pinchvalve GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/2/18 9:56 a.m.

I did Atkins and lost 50 pounds.  The diet was natural for me because I loved all of the stuff I could eat and found creative ways to satisfy cravings for the stuff I couldn't.  My cholesterol went down, I felt great, I was never hungry.  I travelled for work a lot, so eating eggs in the morning and steak at night was simple because someone else was paying and cooking.  This was before the Atkins brand sold cookies and bars and such made out of chemicals, so I ate natural things that were made of real food.  

The downside is staying on it.  Atkins allows you to eat all the meat and cheese you want, so portion control became an issue when I allowed myself to bring in small amounts of carbs. They quickly became large amounts.  I was all or nothing for two years solid, and once you allow yourself to stray, it is hard not to fall off the wagon completely.  It took 6 months to lose 50, I kept it off for 2 years, then got a divorce and put it all back on in a year.   I have yo-yo'd for the past 15 years. 

Suprf1y
Suprf1y UltimaDork
10/2/18 9:59 a.m.
mtn said: And btw, diets are bad. Lifestyle. That is why it is so hard.

That's what I came here to say. The same thing can be said about the fasting discussion.

 

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess MegaDork
10/2/18 10:13 a.m.

The "Keto" diet thing is messing with pathways best left alone.  You are forcing your body into the last ditch "we're all gonna die" metabolic pathway. 

 

Everyone wants a magic pill.  No one wants to hear "exercise, watch what you eat, eat less, stop drinking, stop smoking."  Why bother with all that when you can get a magic pill/"keto diet"/surgery/whatever?

mtn
mtn MegaDork
10/2/18 10:14 a.m.

Toyman, not diet specific, but general weight loss tips. First of all, you weigh 300, your goal is 225? Bad goal. That is a mountain. You want to climb hills. Your goal should be about 270. When you get to 270, your goal should be  245. Then 235. Then 230. Then 225. Seriously, don't look that far out. Small steps. 

The basics of a good eating lifestyle (diet would infer a temporary change, make it permanent or near permanent) are really simple:

  • Figure out your metabolic rate, i.e. your caloric maintenance rate. Then eat 500 to 1000 calories less than that a day. A deficit of 500 calories a day is 1 pound a week.
  • Make sure you're getting your fruits and veggies, and you've made sure you're getting everything you really need(at least one serving of each a day, but better to make it a serving of each at each meal)
  • Protein is necessary for muscle building, which will improve metabolism--i.e. someone who is 200lbs and all muscle will burn more calories just sitting down than someone who is 200lbs and all fat. 
  • Because of the above point, weight lifting/strength training is pretty much a win-win for fat loss (not necessarily weight loss)
  • Despite what I just said above, you do not need nearly as much protein as you think you do unless you're going for HUGE GAINS BRO
  • Gluten is not bad at all, and anyone who tells you that is lying (ignoring Celiac's). However, the gluten free lifestyle does cut out pretty much all the E36 M3ty food
  • HFCS isn't inherently bad, but the body simply does not process it well, and it is in EVERYTHING. Do your best to eliminate it, and only have it on rare occasions
  • Calories in < Calories out, and you will lose weight. Eat the fruits and vegetables, and you'll be healthy doing it too. Count them. Do it on a notepad you carry with you, or on your cell phone. Track it somehow, every single thing you eat from a single cracker to a full meal. Booze needs to be included in this; they don't call it a beer belly for nothin'. Want to eat more? Move more.
  • Eat the crunchy vegetables with a lot of chewing first. Your brain is tricked into thinking you've eaten more, because of the time spent chewing.
  • Most importantly, go with what you can actually do. The healthiest diet has been proven time and time again to be a Vegan diet. My wife recommends almost no one to try it, because she knows that is a fruitless endeavor. So change out the sausage for chicken sausage or Canadian bacon. Change out the biscuit for a english muffin. Change the bread to whole wheat, or to a wrap. Little things.
  • Learn how to read a nutrition label, including the ingredients label. 
mtn
mtn MegaDork
10/2/18 10:15 a.m.
Dr. Hess said:

The "Keto" diet thing is messing with pathways best left alone.  You are forcing your body into the last ditch "we're all gonna die" metabolic pathway. 

 

Everyone wants a magic pill.  No one wants to hear "exercise, watch what you eat, eat less, stop drinking, stop smoking."  Why bother with all that when you can get a magic pill/"keto diet"/surgery/whatever?

Huh, I wish someone with a medical background would tell us this. I just don't know your credentials. 

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 UltimaDork
10/2/18 10:16 a.m.
jharry3 said:

My wife is an MD who specializes in preventative medicine.  Here is her 2 cents worth that I hear all the time:

Exercise.  Make sure you include that. Work your way up to 1/2 hour at least 4 times a week.  Bike riding is great for low impact exercise.  Or walking is good if not jogging.

Low carbs, lots of vegetables and fruit plus protein.  Cook with olive oil.    Keep bacon as a Saturday morning treat, not a regular thing.  

Minimal pasta and bread and donuts, etc.  Spaghetti squash, not spaghetti.

And cut out sweetened drinks, including high fructose corn syrup, cane sugar, artificial sweeteners.    

High Fructose Corn Syrup is the enemy - its in everything and is the worst thing for a healthy diet, my wife thinks the surge of type 2 diabetes is because of this stuff.   So look at ingredients in processed food.  Better yet, cut out processed, ready made food and cook it fresh.  

Its a lifestyle change of habits...

This is it in a nutshell.  Pretty much always has been.  It ain't rocket science. 

Robbie
Robbie GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/2/18 10:35 a.m.

I did weight watchers app on my phone this year. (Started end of Feb). Wife started it but I did it with her and I am damn glad I did.

Just type in what you eat and play the points game. I've never been hungry or felt restrained by their system, and if you are honest with it there is lots of room for your error. Never went to a meeting, only used the app. I eat out, I drink beer, etc. It all goes in the app.

I'm down 25-30 lbs and not tracking food anymore but am still losing weight at about 1lb per month. Lost an entire belt (went from loosest setting to tightest setting, about 5 inches!) around my waist. I'm now at my high school graduation weight...

The app is $20/month, but I switched my life insurance a couple months ago. Because all my blood work came back so much better than 4 years ago I'm saving $600/year for 30 years, and got almost double the coverage. Good ROI on the $120 for 6 months of weight watchers. 

Seriously, it's super easy, and it shifts your habits rather than giving you temporary reason to restrain yourself. We eat out less now, drink less junk beer, eat more eggs and less pasta, and we feel great. I abhor regular monthly bills, but holy crap is this the best one I ever signed up for.

Tom_Spangler
Tom_Spangler GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/2/18 10:46 a.m.

I forget where I saw this, but I think it sums things up nicely:

Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess MegaDork
10/2/18 10:53 a.m.

I also concur with Dr.Mrs.J.Harry3.  HFCS IS THE DEVIL.

 

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/2/18 11:14 a.m.

two pretty much on-topic questions for the spousal units of mtn and jharry3:

1. How important is saliva to the digestive process?   I remember hearing somewhere that the old rule of chewing each bite 30 times before swallowing was to ensure sufficient saliva going with the food as it entered the digestive process.

2. What (if any) nutritional / health benefit am i losing if i put a bunch of veggies into my Ninja and make it into a puree that i can eat with a spoon, rather than eating them whole?   Note that eating them with a spoon means little to no chewing and therefore little to no saliva inclusion.   my typical recipe is 2 avocados, a bunch of parsley, a couple of cucumbers (including the skin), a lemon (not including the skin), half a head of red cabbage, and a cup of whatever fruit juice is in the fridge because i'm too cheap to buy the recommended coconut water.   sometimes i include 3-4 stalks of celery, and sometimes a handful of baby carrots, just depends what's in the fridge.

Nick Comstock
Nick Comstock MegaDork
10/2/18 11:30 a.m.

It seems that fasting and keto are a hot topic right now. From what I've seen a keto diet will get you 71% to where fasting will get you, without the other benefits of fasting, but without starving yourself either. Both fasting and a ketogenic diet will put you into ketosis. The key is to lower insulin levels enough that you can access your fat reserves. Insulin tells the body to store fat and blocks access for it to be used as fuel.

I have no patience for trying to eat a certain way. Whether it's keto or vegan or Paleo it any other way of eating. I just simply don't want to invest that much mental energy into trying to decide what I'm eating.

I try to eat real whole foods. I try not to eat processed foods. That's about as much energy as I'm willing to invest into it. 

As I said in my thread, I'm not fasting to lose weight, although it seems that I am, but that's just a byproduct. I'm much more interested in the 300% increase in autophagy than I am burning fat. 

mtn
mtn MegaDork
10/2/18 11:36 a.m.
AngryCorvair said:

two pretty much on-topic questions for the spousal units of mtn and jharry3:

1. How important is saliva to the digestive process?   I remember hearing somewhere that the old rule of chewing each bite 30 times before swallowing was to ensure sufficient saliva going with the food as it entered the digestive process.

2. What (if any) nutritional / health benefit am i losing if i put a bunch of veggies into my Ninja and make it into a puree that i can eat with a spoon, rather than eating them whole?   Note that eating them with a spoon means little to no chewing and therefore little to no saliva inclusion.   my typical recipe is 2 avocados, a bunch of parsley, a couple of cucumbers (including the skin), a lemon (not including the skin), half a head of red cabbage, and a cup of whatever fruit juice is in the fridge because i'm too cheap to buy the recommended coconut water.   sometimes i include 3-4 stalks of celery, and sometimes a handful of baby carrots, just depends what's in the fridge.

Mrs. mtn just texted that there is more to talk about, but ultimately she's never even thought about saliva (think about how much you swallow just sitting down she said), and you're not really losing any significant benefit by pureeing or consuming from a smoothie. She also said that it can be easily argued that it is better to blend because it disrupts the cell walls, and therefore releases more absorbable beta-carotene. (I don't know what that is). 

Her other thing is, similar to mentioned above, are you going to eat them whole? If blending wasn't an option, would you still be eating it? For most folks, the answer is likely "No". So eat them however  you will. She encourages old folks to get their fruit from pie if that is the only way they'll eat it. Still getting the fruit, and at a certain age you stop caring so much about the bad stuff.



EDIT: 
Some related stuff that I know from prior research: 

If you're doing smoothies, it is best to drink them with a straw to maintain your enamel 

There is significant evidence that nitrates such as those found in beets and arugula will help reduce blood pressure, but it requires something in the saliva to make it work. Doesn't matter how it gets to your stomach, you'll swallow enough saliva anyways, but what is important is that if you brush your teeth before or after, you'll lose the benefit as it kills something that is required to let the nitrates go to work. 

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
10/2/18 11:45 a.m.

Sugar is bad. Keto makes it easy: no sugar, no carbs. It's the "easiness" of the diet that gains its converts. 

Thing is, it's really just the sugar that's bad. Sugar, from the most natural of honey to HFCS is human-kind's most efficient calorie. 

Sure, if you told someone "no candy, no sweets, no soda, no juice" they'd probably still want to eat a ton of a fruit or pineapple. 

My in-laws don't eat sweets. They do eat tons of pasta and bread. They havent had much success in losing weight, despite a restrictive diet, mostly because they eat so much bread and pasta, and they never exercise. If you're someone who is constantly moving, carbs are good for you. If you're someone burning tons of calories, then sugar is ok too. If you're not doing either, then neither is probably good. 

Me? I saw it first hand. When I was in college working for a summer at a YMCA Summer Camp, I swore off sugar. None in coffee. No soda. Nothing at home. The only place I allowed it was in the dining hall at work (I got 2 free meals). It was amazing how despite the occasional cookie, cake or ice cream, I still lost weight really quickly. Granted, being a groundskeeper also helped, but in 3 months I lost almost 35lbs. 

Now, with a less active job and a 8-month old, I'm struggling. It's just too easy to eat. The last 3 months in particular have been bad. Lots of vists by family, lots of free food at work, lots of free sweets at work. 

Amazingly enough, a weird thing has happened lately - I'm finding stuff too sweet. I have ice cream in the freezer at home. I'm not interested in it. We have soda at work. I'm not interested. It's weird, and actually kind of worrying. Has my body hit it's limit? 

Mezzanine
Mezzanine Dork
10/2/18 11:56 a.m.
Nick Comstock said:

I have no patience for trying to eat a certain way. Whether it's keto or vegan or Paleo it any other way of eating. I just simply don't want to invest that much mental energy into trying to decide what I'm eating.

I try to eat real whole foods. I try not to eat processed foods. That's about as much energy as I'm willing to invest into it. 

Yesss. I'm totally turned off by the idea of "diets" and following some regime. It's not so much what you eat as it is how much. If you want to weigh less, eat less. Doing it in a way that doesn't make you feel lousy all the time is the trick. Most important thing to me: don't think of it as diet or a thing you are doing to meet a goal. This needs to be a change in your lifestyle otherwise you're just going to fall back into your old habits.

Say it with me: "this is how I eat now. It's not a diet, it's the way I choose to live."

 

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/2/18 1:00 p.m.

I've been mostly on it for a long time.  Works for me.

The best part for me is that my family has a history of diabetes, so I'm more focused on the lower blood sugar than anything else.  In terms of weight, I'm still down 40lb from my peak, and it's pretty steady.  I'd like to get back to 20lb lighter, as that made running (and vacationing when we do that) a whole lot easier.  But that will take some time.

It's not hard to eat this way, it's more hard to remember that you should be cooking instead of eating prepared food.  And I see pasta as prepared food- since it came from a factory.

Ok, so it is hard to not eat some bread at times.  But I've never seen the long term problems that others like to point out- and I've been on a low carb diet for almost 20 years.  YMMV.

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