1 ... 6 7 8 9 10
No Time
No Time UberDork
9/11/24 10:13 a.m.

In reply to Peabody :

Depending on the content of the application and/or resume, I suspect they view his application as someone looking the able to pay the bills between tech gigs and expect him to leave once he lands another job in the tech field. 

I know when I review resumes for someone applying for a position that's a couple steps below their previous role, I question their motives and staying power. Hiring and training is expensive, and hiring a short timer for a full time permanent role is going to leave you short handed again, and possibly in a worse position than you are now. 
 

 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
9/11/24 10:27 a.m.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

That's fair. You're right- that is (in part) an answer to the question of  "Where is everybody?".

 

KyAllroad
KyAllroad MegaDork
9/11/24 2:25 p.m.

What a depressing thread.  

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
9/11/24 2:51 p.m.

In reply to KyAllroad :

I thought it was about kids in the car scene.

pheller
pheller UltimaDork
9/12/24 12:29 p.m.

I think cultural differences are playing a part in the workforce too. 

A lot of immigrants could care less about vacation. In their mind, they have had plenty of time sitting around in beautiful places doing nothing. They want to work. 

But generational American millennial kids? They've got a completely different ideal. Many young people I meet, even as old as I am (40), wish they could travel more, or had traveled more during college. They lust for remote jobs that are mythical high paying gig work. Even in my relatively conservative industry filled with lots of country boys, there is a distinct interest in a comfortable job that one is naturally good at. Applying for an internally posted positions, interviewing, then losing that opportunity to someone else who eventually shows themselves to not be great at it, creates a lot of bitterness as well. We've lost talented people because they just didn't get their time to shine. That's a product of more consolidation of businesses and higher efficiency equal less room to grow, or more importantly, change up your daily tasks. 

I think that plays into it as well, often, rising through the ranks is risky. I know me personally, I'm good at my job and many other positions for which I think I could do just fine working don't pay that much more than what I currently make, but come with some amount of risk. Talking with other millennials, when your boss's boss comes to you and says "apply for this open position", that's usually a good sign that the risk is minimized, but putting your head out there within your existing employer can be tricky. 

However, I'm not sure that last point applies to the trades, because there are 10:1 skilled laborers to supervisors or managers, and I think that can be hard too. Even if your making $100k as a 20yo industrial plumber, you're looking down the career path at your supervisor who's in his 60's and saying "do I have to wait that long to have his job?" 

 

Datsun240ZGuy
Datsun240ZGuy MegaDork
9/12/24 12:36 p.m.
KyAllroad said:

What a depressing thread.  

I went to a wake/funeral service last night for a 57 year old family member. They had everyone walk by the casket at the end and I watched 75 people walk down the side past me. 

My thought was - where are all the old people at?  

Oh, wait I told myself; we're the old people now. 

berkeley

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa MegaDork
9/12/24 12:59 p.m.
SV reX said:

They generally start their careers earlier than college bound students.  While their college bound counterparts are amassing large debts for their education, tradesmen and women are getting a 4 year jumpstart on their earnings. That's a positive $150K or so, instead of $150K in debt- a $300K difference.

It's common for people with 20 years experience to make $80-120K per year in construction.  With a full benefits package. 

I understand this is not people's perception.  
 

I still don't know anything about Auburn. 🙄

Ok, this hasn't been pointed out yet, so I might as well.

Your math aint mathin.  A positive of $150k?  So they are living with no bills for those 4 years, somehow?

Based on current average figures for your general area: rent, power (not water or other utilities,) phone, food, gasoline, and car insurance will take out about $35,500 annually.  There are definitely other costs I'm missing.  Internet, for example.

Additionally, doctors get $150k in debt for school.  Your average person ends up with about $40k of debt for a 4-year degree.

The break-even is a lot closer than you seem to think it is.

johndej
johndej UltraDork
9/12/24 1:07 p.m.
Mr_Asa said:
SV reX said:

They generally start their careers earlier than college bound students.  While their college bound counterparts are amassing large debts for their education, tradesmen and women are getting a 4 year jumpstart on their earnings. That's a positive $150K or so, instead of $150K in debt- a $300K difference.

It's common for people with 20 years experience to make $80-120K per year in construction.  With a full benefits package. 

I understand this is not people's perception.  
 

I still don't know anything about Auburn. 🙄

Ok, this hasn't been pointed out yet, so I might as well.

Your math aint mathin.  A positive of $150k?  So they are living with no bills for those 4 years, somehow?

Based on current average figures for your general area: rent, power (not water or other utilities,) phone, food, gasoline, and car insurance will take out about $35,500 annually.  There are definitely other costs I'm missing.  Internet, for example.

Additionally, doctors get $150k in debt for school.  Your average person ends up with about $40k of debt for a 4-year degree.

The break-even is a lot closer than you seem to think it is.

I'm was just bringing it back up as I kept hearing the "pay is good" in the trades and I was curious as to what the actual dollar value would be. I have friends in that area who have children who will and have been graduating high school for the past 5 and through the next 5 years. If I were to discuss a future employment path, knowing actual values from someone in the local area would seems like they'd be in a position to hire and more familiar than myself would be helpful. Based on what you're saying, I'd advise them to go 45 minutes down the road and get an engineering degree from Auburn should they desire going to college. I'll lay out a career path here that I'm very familiar with. Join the Pulp and Paper program (Georgia Tech also has a great one - lots of scholarship opportunities). For in state Auburn, ~$23k per year tuition/fees/room & board/etc. and expected to go up 3-5% per year, so roughly $100k over 8 semesters starting now, you wouldn't pay tuition for the time you are co-oping. They require you to do at least 1 co-op (full semester), and 1 internship to graduate. The most paper mills in the area there pay ~$22/hour plus overtime for interns along with a housing stipend or provide group housing, so a assuming you work 1 summer (~12 weeks) you can pick up about >$10k then, and then a semester (~17 weeks) then >$15k, most also bump up pay like $1/hour per year you've completed and returning terms). That's assuming 40 hours per week but depending on the area, 50-60 hours are common if you want to get at it. Then if you'd start as a process engineer a mill, you'd be starting at ~$85k/year plus bonus and benefits, most have killed their pensions though, 50-60/hour weeks plus on call or covering nights/weekends. Moving to shift supervisor or assistant superintendent or other managerial route would be ~$120k/year within 5 years. A lot of retirement in this system now so as with everything, go-getter's are able to move up fast if they're willing to change locations and/or companies also.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
9/12/24 4:09 p.m.
Mr_Asa said:
SV reX said:

They generally start their careers earlier than college bound students.  While their college bound counterparts are amassing large debts for their education, tradesmen and women are getting a 4 year jumpstart on their earnings. That's a positive $150K or so, instead of $150K in debt- a $300K difference.

It's common for people with 20 years experience to make $80-120K per year in construction.  With a full benefits package. 

I understand this is not people's perception.  
 

I still don't know anything about Auburn. 🙄

Ok, this hasn't been pointed out yet, so I might as well.

Your math aint mathin.  A positive of $150k?  So they are living with no bills for those 4 years, somehow?

Based on current average figures for your general area: rent, power (not water or other utilities,) phone, food, gasoline, and car insurance will take out about $35,500 annually.  There are definitely other costs I'm missing.  Internet, for example.

Additionally, doctors get $150k in debt for school.  Your average person ends up with about $40k of debt for a 4-year degree.

The break-even is a lot closer than you seem to think it is.

This is why I avoided specifics. I figured someone would debate.

Living expenses for those 4 years are gonna be paid regardless. It either gets paid for with borrowed money, or earned money. I'm not saying there is a bunch of money in savings at the end of 4 years.

I don't have any doctors in the family, so I can't offer info on that, but I think $150K for a Dr is pretty light. 2 of my kids had to pay about $160K for general BA degrees.

YMMV. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
9/12/24 4:50 p.m.

In reply to johndej :

I think that's fine.
 

I never compared this to engineering. Not everyone can be an engineer. 
 

Best of luck!

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa MegaDork
9/12/24 5:20 p.m.

In reply to SV reX :

You did offer specifics, and then did bad math.  Its not a debate?

Whatever, I said my part.  Just don't do bad math.

johndej
johndej UltraDork
9/12/24 6:10 p.m.

In reply to SV reX :

Oh I understand, my baseline would be minimum wage ($7.25/hr or -15k/year) or going into the armed forces ($21,400/year E1 but estimated $43,500/year counting food and housing needs).

I understand not everyone is interested in an engineering track but I feel like a lot of the young guys you'd want to be starting into the trades who are ambitious are likely doing that math themselves and deciding to take on some debt and go to school if they are able to. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
9/13/24 9:06 a.m.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

I'm pretty sure $150K + $150K = $300K, so no bad math.

I did, however, use the word "debt" when I intended "cost", or "expense".  You're right. The average debt is about $40K. That was my mistake. 
 

But the COST of a 4 year college program isn't $40K. The average cost for in-state public 4-year college is $108,584.  The average cost for out of state students is $182,832.  The average cost of private university is $234,512 over 4 years. (According to the Googlz).

One group of young people is spending money for 4 years, the other is earning it.  Feel free to do the math how you like. 
 

My point stands. There is a lot of need in the trades for people to fill good paying jobs, and very few young people rising in the ranks to fill those positions. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
9/13/24 9:10 a.m.

In reply to johndej :

I always recommend the armed forces to young people. It's a better choice than construction. (Most young people I've spoken with aren't interested)

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
9/13/24 1:50 p.m.
SV reX said:

In reply to johndej :

I always recommend the armed forces to young people. It's a better choice than construction. (Most young people I've spoken with aren't interested)

I rather my son do construction 😂

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/13/24 4:40 p.m.

I assume all the young people saw the below research by the Pew Center and decided to get a college degree instead: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/05/23/is-college-worth-it-2/

Here is the money shot, ignore the terribly written headline:

The gap in earnings is massive and getting larger. Especially for young men, the employment outlook if you don't have a college education is awful.

The downstream impacts for non-college educated men are frankly horrific: 

 

From: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/06/opinion/working-class-death-rate.html

Oh, and you're less likely to get married as well! And the problem is getting worse.

From: https://www.prb.org/articles/the-rise-of-the-no-bachelors-bachelor/#:~:text=Their%20research%20reveals%20a%20growing,men%20with%20a%20bachelor's%20degree.

If you told an 18 year old male that he was more likely to earn less and die early and alone unless he gets college degree, what do you think he would say?

=======================================

Maaaaybe we should stop asking young people why they are making completely rational choices, and start asking old people why they've constructed a world that is so blatantly stacked against the poor and working class.

Wally (Forum Supporter)
Wally (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/13/24 6:25 p.m.

We're struggling to replace workers at our place for a number of reasons even though the pay and benefits are pretty good.  People now seem happy to trade money for flexible schedules and time off that we can't give. I was talking to a trainee bus operator a few weeks ago, and hustling 3 days a week with doordash was paying him what we are in five. If I was starting over it would be tough to get me to give up steady 4 day weekends to push a 60 ft bus through city traffic five nights a week, and likely miss most holidays and family events for the first 7-8 years.  People's priorities aren't what they once were for better or worse. 

RBCA
RBCA New Reader
9/24/24 4:40 p.m.

Hello! Pete asked me to comment on this thread weeks ago because as a scholarship program manager I have a unique perspective on the subject (normally I just lurk here so I can figure out what Pete is talking about half the time). I promise I will do that but you folks seem very helpful and obviously opinionated on the subject, so I'd like to ask you this:

One of the scholarship programs I manage does not currently accept applications from vocational technical or trade students. I have the opportunity to change their minds. What do you think I should tell them? 

Thanks much! 

Rons
Rons GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/24/24 6:32 p.m.

What does this picture have to do with the trades v uni theme? It's all in the name of the guy on the sign.

In my home town there was a company called Keith Plumbing and Heating. I remember when they worked out  of a small shop on the main drag. In the fifties they hired an apprentice (any guesses on his name?) He ended up buying the company and it grew and moved to a half block square facility in an industrial part of town. Around 10 years ago Paul Myers ( remember our apprentice?) sold the business and donated enough money to have the main tower named for him.

The moral of the story is it's not the educational path a man takes, it's the drive to succeed that's important.

Rons
Rons GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/24/24 6:32 p.m.

What does this picture have to do with the trades v uni theme? It's all in the name of the guy on the sign.

In my home town there was a company called Keith Plumbing and Heating. I remember when they worked out  of a small shop on the main drag. In the fifties they hired an apprentice (any guesses on his name?) He ended up buying the company and it grew and moved to a half block square facility in an industrial part of town. Around 10 years ago Paul Myers ( remember our apprentice?) sold the business and donated enough money to have the main tower named for him.

The moral of the story is it's not the educational path a man takes, it's the drive to succeed that's important.

OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/24/24 6:40 p.m.
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

We're struggling to replace workers at our place for a number of reasons even though the pay and benefits are pretty good.  People now seem happy to trade money for flexible schedules and time off that we can't give. I was talking to a trainee bus operator a few weeks ago, and hustling 3 days a week with doordash was paying him what we are in five. If I was starting over it would be tough to get me to give up steady 4 day weekends to push a 60 ft bus through city traffic five nights a week, and likely miss most holidays and family events for the first 7-8 years.  People's priorities aren't what they once were for better or worse

Better in my opinion. "Disinterested in being taken advantage of" is a trait some of us GenXers could learn from. 

TravisTheHuman
TravisTheHuman MegaDork
9/24/24 6:57 p.m.
CrustyRedXpress said:

From: https://www.prb.org/articles/the-rise-of-the-no-bachelors-bachelor/#:~:text=Their%20research%20reveals%20a%20growing,men%20with%20a%20bachelor's%20degree.

Is this supposed to be selling me on a Bachelor's degree?

Duke
Duke MegaDork
9/25/24 8:54 a.m.
TravisTheHuman said:
CrustyRedXpress said:

Oh, and [without a degree] you're less likely to get married as well! And the problem is getting worse.

Is this supposed to be selling me on a Bachelor's degree?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I genuinely like my wife and hope to spend as many years married to her as I can.

 

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/25/24 9:00 a.m.

In reply to CrustyRedXpress :

Correlation vs causation. The data here suggests the type of person more likely to die young or not get married overlaps with the type of person who didn't go to college. It does NOT mean that if you just go to college, everything in life will be hunky-dory. 

Driven5
Driven5 PowerDork
9/25/24 1:36 p.m.
RBCA said:

One of the scholarship programs I manage does not currently accept applications from vocational technical or trade students. I have the opportunity to change their minds. What do you think I should tell them?

I guess that depends somewhat on the mission of the scholarship and how awarding of it is determined.

My wife and I both generally came from a privileged time and place, where going to a university to get a bachelor's degree was more of an expectation than an accomplishment. Most did not need financial aid to graduate without crushing debt. The scholarships people got were often little more than bonuses for their privilege that padded their or their parents pocket, had a minor impact on their entirely manageable debt load, or perhaps offered some ability to attend a more ‘prestigious’ (expensive) university than they otherwise would have. Don't get me wrong, getting scholarships still took hard work on their part, and were appreciated. But I'd argue that the actual ROI of those scholarships was pretty terrible, as it had little meaningful impact on the outcome.

Now that’s not to discount in any way scholarships for all those with the work ethic, capability, and desire to succeed at a 4-year university, but need scholarships to otherwise reasonably make it a reality. For scholarship programs that are ok stopping here, despite being more difficult to differentiate than pure academics, there is no shortage of such deserving people. Depending on the size of the scholarship vs the cost of tuition, the ROI still might not be all that great either though, as it isn't necessarily enough to have a dramatic overall impact on the affordability and resulting debt load taken on.

My wife has also long worked at a technical college. For much of that she was as an academic advisor for people on a variety of government assistance programs, who were trying to change the direction of their lives despite the strong headwinds they were facing.  I’m not just talking about those who aren’t suited to the university education model or who genuinely would rather just work in a trade. People she helped included (but weren't limited to) HS dropouts getting a second start on life, single mothers escaping poverty (and sometimes abuse), 1st generation immigrant families with one or both parents needing to learn English before even starting on their certificates, and workers laid off from industries in decline retraining for industries in demand so their families wouldn't fall into poverty. The lower relative cost for the amount of earning potential increase means that each dollar spent here has a greater impact on the long term success of each individual... And which carries on, breaking the bad cycle and starting a good one, with their children. Many graduates were able to get on their first job track with a living wage and growth potential, while others were able to move to a better one. Some were even coming out making more than her, despite her master's degree and years of experience. The focus on these programs is more on providing the supply to fill industry demands, than selling diplomas regardless of what the post-graduation prospects may be. Her experience has shown that there is no area of post-secondary education with a greater funding and scholarship ROI than tech/trade schools.

One of the obstacles I see in trying to cover both university and tech/trade within a single 'scholarship' is determining how to both identify and judge the merit basis and awarding between them. Conventional measures of academic success tend to bias the selection toward the university side and those who benefit the least from it. And the more it would benefit people on the tech/trade side, the less directly prior academic success (or lack there of) may demonstrate their merits.

Viewing education as part of our societal house: University scholarships without need are trying to raise the roof. University scholarships with need are trying to repair the roof. Tech/trade scholarships are trying to repair the foundation.  A strong foundation benefits the whole house.

1 ... 6 7 8 9 10

You'll need to log in to post.

Our Preferred Partners
CqFucR1uYYcFVjVXqHzu7YA4dmQo6jCXBJpP3meim5DKlpFPoKEHTQ5Fpzv11fwj