Help me dream about engine swap options. (AE71 corolla)

So I think my 4ac in my AE71 corolla is dead, I am waiting to either buy or rent a engine hoist to pull it out and see what it is for sure, but it seems like rod knock at the least.

This will be a slow long term project. If the 4ac is indeed dead it is not worth rebuilding so I am going to look into an engine swap and am just starting to gather some data. So I can build a budget.

My Goals - Fun cruiser, maybe some autocross, and eventual track day/HPDE stuff.

I would like to have cruise control and heat. Otherwise pretty flexible on everything else.

I like the idea of just doing a racepak, or I pad for all the gauges.

It seems any fuel injected option I would need some new fuel system components-new pump, new lines both there and return?

Surge tank set up, maybe https://fitechefi.com/products/40007/ https://fitechefi.com/products/40009/

At what point do I need a different rear end?

Then do I go with a ford 8.8 or a Toyota truck axle?

Some of the options out there up for consideration:

4cy

4age-115-125 HP -FI or carb ,1k ebay cost, but could find cheaper from MR2 or FWD Toyota?

Could use the same T50 trans I already have hooked to the 4ac

Pros

"Drop in"

Cons

low stock HP

wiring

3SGE Beams- Engine + Trans $1,600 Ebay 180hp

http://www.sq-engineering.com/index.php/tech-articles/3sge-beams-conversion-guide

https://xcessivemanufacturing.com/toyota/corolla/aexx/chassis-and-suspension/ae86-beams-mount-kit.html Mounts-$180

https://xcessivemanufacturing.com/ecuk-s1.html - Harness plus link ecu with start up map $1,600

$3,500 total- mounts, motor trans, harness and ecu

Pros:

Lower Weight

Higher redline (than 4ac, and the v8 options)

Cons

Parts availability

Would need professionally tuned

SR20det- Engine + Trans = 2,500 Ebay- OUT

F20c- Engine + Trans= 4-5k Ebay- OUT

8CY

1UZ- $700 ebay, need trans w58 or R154

https://xcessivemanufacturing.com/toyota/corolla/aexx/chassis-and-suspension/toyota-exx-t-exx-1uz-mmb.html - mounts-$125

https://xcessivemanufacturing.com/toyota/corolla/aexx/transmission/ae86-to-manual-transmission-cross-member-w58-r154.html -Xmember -$96

https://xcessivemanufacturing.com/toyota/corolla/aexx/transmission/toyota-t-1uz-w5x-ta.html - trans adaptor W58- $240

W58- first craigslist sweep- $700

R154- similar

Pro's

Higher HP

Same badge for autocross class

Use stock ECU

https://www.scribd.com/document/357010580/This-is-how-you-wire-up-a-1UZ-FE-Engine-pdf

Cons

Weight

Figuring out the wiring

LR4- (4.8 ls based truck motor) 400- 1000, + 600 for standalone- Trans - t56 $1500-2k?

Pros

Power

Easy to add power later on

Easy Standalone Options

Parts everywhere

Cons

Would need to cut out and rebuild trans tunnel

Would need mounts fabricated? or https://www.facebook.com/KeConversions/posts/ke70-ae71-conversion-kitske70ls1-ke70httpswwwfacebookcomkeconversionsposts880397/995737203796058/

Weight

Too much power- is this a thing?

I guess right now I was leaning towards looking at the LR4 4.8, any other thoughts pros/cons I am missing

No 4ac is worth rebuilding.

Even a 3T has more potential and it bolts in.

Can someone move this to the correct section. Was Not supposed to be in open classifieds. Sorry about that. 

What about the 4AGE silver or blacktop motors?  Aren't they like ~170 hp and nearly drop-in?  That would be the sweet spot of both easy gains and fairly easy execution for me.

Lets just cut to the chase so you can start cutting.

The only thing I would do that you wont want to do is leave the Auto box on the back of the engine. 

In reply to ProDarwin :

I was thinking the blacktop and silver top were front wheel drive motors. I will have to look back into those. 

In reply to NOHOME :

Any thoughts on pros and cons? Other than if I want a manual will need some extra parts? 

toyota beams !

The fourth generation 3S-GE, also known as the BEAMS 3S-GE began production in 1997. The first version was equipped with VVT-I and produced 197 bhp (147 kW, 200 PS) @ 7000 rpm. It was available in a few models sold only in Japan - the MR2 G and G-Limited, the Celica ST202 SS-II and SS-III and the Caldina. BEAMS is an acronym which stands for Breakthrough Engine with Advanced Mechanism System.

In 1998 a second version was released with dual VVT-i (variable timing on both the intake and exhaust cams), titanium valves, battery-backed injectors and a slightly higher compression ratio (11:1 instead of 10.5:1). This engine powered the Altezza RS200 and produced around 207 bhp (154 kW, 210 PS) @ 7600 rpm.

The two variants are easily identifiable by colour. The cam covers on the earlier model are red and on the later model, black. They are often referred to as the "Red Top" and the "Black Top" respectively.

The "Grey Top" BEAMS 3S-GE was an available engine option in the Rav4 in Japan. Even though the valve cover on this engine is black, it is referred to as "Grey Top" to differentiate it from the Dual-VVTi "Black Top" in the Altezza. Power output is 177 bhp (132 kW, 180 PS) @ 6600 rpm

https://www.ebay.com/itm/JDM-Toyota-3S-Beams-VVTi-Engine-3S-GE/272940805374?hash=item3f8c8a2cfe:g:JgwAAOSw-0xYmgRc

https://www.ebay.com/itm/JDM-Toyota-3S-Beams-VVTi-Engine-3S-GE-6-Speed-Transmission/272968588089?hash=item3f8e321b39:g:okgAAOSwVKRaJaOr

Somebeach said:

In reply to NOHOME :

Any thoughts on pros and cons? Other than if I want a manual will need some extra parts? 

My brain does not work that way. If I like it, there are no cons, only E36 M3  to design, and since the challenge is half the reason for doing it in the first place, hardly a "con" .  I like it because there is a certain symmetry to the package that suits my sense of humor.

Rational people do not do engine swaps, they get too involved in the pros and cons

Pete

I also like the BEAMS 3SGE, bang for the buck is hard to beat assuming you can get it running easily on the included electronics.

Other options that come to mind:

Toyota 2 or 3RZ-FE: Tough but low power 4 cylinders found in Tacomas, could be a cheap option and the right donor would get you your engine, trans, and beefy rear axle all in one place.

Mazda 13B: Has been done in that car, port for more power and wonderful noises.  Turbo for even more power.

Nissan VQ35DE: 350zs and G35s with issues are everywhere, part the rest of the car out and you're left with a decently powerful V6.

Honda K20/24: Lots of power potential, lots of potential donors, and there are adapters for longitudinal transmissions.  F20C is obviously an easier answer but more expensive.

When you mentioned 'too much power' with the LR4, that absolutely exists with small cars. You're probably gonna be happy around 250-300 HP.

I think the real question is "how easy do I want this to be?" Depending on what you find 4A-GEs can be rebuilt to over 150+HP, though at that range the stock ECU can't cope. The V8 1UZ-FE is also a great engine and will also get you to a comfy ~250 at the wheels on stock parts for cheap. I say skip the 3S-GE; too few parts, and you need a LINK ECU to use it's dual VVT-i properly. If you don't it won't be much better than a modded 4A.

In reply to tdrrally :

Even cheaper than I thought. It is tempting but seems like a lot of hassle for 200 hp. Is it a wide range of usable rpm or would it all be up top?

Is there any reliable resource to see the actual weight differences between these engines? Like 1uz vs LS truck motor vs beams?

Also my 4ac is carbed  now. Does that mean if I would go 4age like the silver or blacktops I would still need a stand alone set up? Or a big wiring nightmare? 

In reply to NOHOME :

“Rational people do not do engine swaps, they get too involved in the pros and cons“

Ha ha. This is pretty good. 

I would vote LR4 in this case. That short stroke, with good valve springs and the right cam.... so much goodness there. I can here it in my head being shifted at 7500rpms and the wail it would make.  I may need a moment. 

Also, what about a 2AR  / other Camry 4 banger?  They make ~180 - 200hp and at 2.5L should have a pretty decent powerband.  Do these go in RWD applications?  There is also the 1AR 2.7L variant 

I'd like to bring up something that often gets glossed over in these discussions...the Beams 3S-GE is too tall to fit in the same place a 4A. The typical solution is space the subframe (aka "crossmember" to lots of Toyota peeps) which does provide room, but also moves the steering rack and in the inner ends of the LCAs a couple inches downward with it. Some folks say it is no big deal, and that changing things like bump steer, roll centers, and scrub radius isn't a problem in the real world, but I tend not to be one of those people. If the car has already been lowered, the subframe spacing takes you further in the wrong direction, adding to the lowering geometry changes, unless they have already been corrected with RCA's and adjustable swaybar end links/lowered swaybar mounts.

I might be more inclined to go Beams and reengineer the front suspension and steering to do it properly if I didn't already have 4A-G parts around, but I still like the 4A-G for simplicity and ease.

If you were to go LR4 would you try to find a decent used T56  or a CD009 new with an adapter? It seems like the t56 are super expensive. 

Anything extra needed for the t56 LR4 combo? Or all just bolts up  

Also AE good to know about the height issues  haven’t seen that issue before.