2022 Honda Civic Si: less horsepower, but improved power curve

Colin
By Colin Wood
Oct 20, 2021 | Honda, Civic Si

Photography Courtesy Honda

The best-handling, best-equipped and most fun-to-drive Civic Si ever.” That’s how Honda describes its brand-new 2022 Civic Si.

Now in its 11th generation, the Si retains its only choice of a six-speed manual transmission, but now is now only available as a four-door sedan.

What’s new for 2022? Honda says the 1.5-liter turbo from the previous generation has been updated with “broader power curves and a lighter flywheel for quicker response and improved drivability,” making peak torque–all 192 lb.-ft. of it–arriving 300 rpm sooner.

However, comparing spec sheets to the outgoing model shows that the new model is down 5 horsepower–200 compared to the previous gen's 205–with peak power coming in 300 rpm later.

[Project Car: 2019 Honda Civic Si Coupe]

At any rate, Honda also notes that the Civic gets the same rev-matching system used in the Civic Type R, capable of a “430 m/s response time.”


Here’s how the new 2022 Civic Si compares to the outgoing model in a few key areas:

Expect to see the 2022 Civic Si hit showrooms floors sometime later this year.

Excited? Upset? Indifferent? Let us know in the comments below.

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Comments
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Duke
Duke MegaDork
10/19/21 8:02 a.m.

*ahem*

 

Less power.  Fewer horsepower.

 

Thank you.

 

malibuguy
malibuguy GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
10/19/21 8:30 a.m.

I would highly consider one if something were to happen to both my yaris and my highlander.  but even then...I aint rich

buzzboy
buzzboy Dork
10/19/21 9:00 a.m.
Duke said:

*ahem*

 

Less power.  Fewer horsepower.

 

Thank you.

 

200<205

200 is less than 205

The hill I'll die on, but thankfully for all others, I'll be dead

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
10/19/21 9:08 a.m.

The move from N/A K to 1.5 turbo and lack of 2 door completely eliminated Honda from my new car shopping list this year. The 10th and 11th gen stylings have such awkward, bloaty proportions. I think 9th gen Si was peak Honda until we have full electric Civics and they hopefully fix the styling. Gotta admit though, that interior is really nice with the horizontal grill thing and actual real KNOBS. 

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter)
pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/19/21 9:17 a.m.

Less power, no hatchback, nothing exciting going on here at all. Major yawn.

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) UltimaDork
10/19/21 9:18 a.m.

Peak Honda styling happened around 1995.  This car looks like they tried to have a classy, mild evolution over the previous car, which was pretty garish.  I generally like the idea of one of these but I wonder about the price.  Like I doubt I could get one with a sunroof for under $30k.  Curious what other colors will be available.  I like turbos well enough but I agree that a 2.0 K-series would be my preference.  

The mpg's, both on sticker and what I assume the real-world would be, would be a nice improvement over my SX4.  Same with performance.  Same with NVH and general comfort.  I just don't know if I want to take on a car payment again, or at least right now.  

EDIT: Wait, I thought they used the hatch body for this.  Why not??? They look the same!  What's the point of this car?

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
10/19/21 9:21 a.m.
Duke said:

*ahem*

 

Less power.  Fewer horsepower.

 

Thank you.

 

Interesting. I never thought about it. "Fewer" is used if the thing is countable, but you're not counting horsepower, you're measuring it. According to dictionary.com, "Less is used for singular mass nouns." So you could say "fewer horsepowers," but you would say "less horsepower." Since we don't pluralize horsepower, less is indeed correct, in my opinion.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/fewer-vs-less/

 

pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture UltimaDork
10/19/21 9:36 a.m.
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

EDIT: Wait, I thought they used the hatch body for this.  Why not??? They look the same!  What's the point of this car?

No Si hatch for many years now. If you want a hot Civic hatch, you buy the Type-R.

You can buy a Civic Sport hatch with the 2.0 K and 6-speed, which it sounds like is what you want, so you're covered there.

I think it's great that Honda is even offering this, even if I'd also only consider it as a hatchback. I also like that you get a real helical LSD instead of the electronic ones included in most new FWD sporty cars.

I'm holding out for the Integra, which is hopefully basically this, but with a hatch.

Colin Wood
Colin Wood Associate Editor
10/19/21 9:37 a.m.

Since I think the consensus (at least around the office) seems to be that the new Integra will be a hatchback version of the Si, this, or the next-gen Integra?

STM317
STM317 UberDork
10/19/21 9:54 a.m.

I'm not a buyer for this type of car, but I think this one looks better inside and out than the last one. But there's really no excuse for not having a liftback. This vestigial trunk seems like it would be a royal pain to load/unload:

2022 Honda Civic Si

 

The only reason that makes sense to me to offer this as a sedan only, is to try and upsell people to a liftback Integra

Duke
Duke MegaDork
10/19/21 9:58 a.m.
buzzboy said:
Duke said:

*ahem*

Less power.  Fewer horsepower.

Thank you.

200<205

200 is less than 205

The hill I'll die on, but thankfully for all others, I'll be dead

You are correct, 200 is less than 205.  But since "horsepower" is an incremental unit that is counted to quantify a specific amount, the correct word is fewer.

If you have a recipe for soup that calls for 8 cups of water and you only put in 6, you put in less water, but you put in fewer cups of water.

Here endeth the lesson.

 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
10/19/21 10:01 a.m.

In reply to Colin Wood :

Yeah, Civic Si sedan or Integra hatchback? And will they have similar drivelines?

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
10/19/21 10:15 a.m.
Duke said:

You are correct, 200 is less than 205.  But since "horsepower" is an incremental unit that is counted to quantify a specific amount, the correct word is fewer.

If you have a recipe for soup that calls for 8 cups of water and you only put in 6, you put in less water, but you put in fewer cups of water.

Here endeth the lesson.

 

See my post above. You say "cups of water" - plural - so it's fewer, but you say "horsepower" - note singular - so you use less.

BLRB
BLRB New Reader
10/19/21 11:25 a.m.

I've had a 2020 Civic Si sedan for over a year now and think this is a good evolution.  The updates address the changes I would want on my car.  More torque earlier and power doesn't drop off as fast in the 2022 up top.  Also, a lighter flywheel with hopefully a sprung clutch would help with rev hang.  While I would have bought a Si hatch if they had one, the sedan has been ok for my space needs.  If they keep it around $25K, I think it will still be a good bargain.

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) UltimaDork
10/19/21 11:37 a.m.

In reply to pointofdeparture :

If the Sport was available with a sunroof... But you're right, that's close.

Or I cross shop to the GTI.  If I actually did something, but this is probably a few years down the road.

Datsun310Guy
Datsun310Guy MegaDork
10/19/21 11:43 a.m.

In reply to BLRB :

$25k?  The last one pushed that.  

I'm betting on $26-$29k and the Type R pushing $39k.

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/19/21 11:46 a.m.

Integra, because hatch 

 

The few fewer horsepower isn't a bother as a proper limited slip and improved suspension geometry is a bigger part of the equation to me. If you're merely chasing horsepower, you'd be getting an N something. Honda is smart enough to know their niche is a functional, reliable drivers car, not chasing numbers in a horsepower war. 

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
10/19/21 11:53 a.m.

Other sources are reporting that they have indeed kept the helical LSD. So on top of the manual transmission, that's very good news.

However, I am mildly disappointed at how conservative they seem to have been with this one though. I feel like more often than not they have at least tried to move the bar a bit with each subsequent gen of the Si. So far this one sounds like the previous gen Si treatment mostly copy-and-pasted to the new gen Civic. More like a mid-cycle refresh than something 'all-new' in that regard. 

Don't get me wrong, that's not to say it's bad in any way. As a standalone item I still think it's a refreshing departure from the vast majority of what else is out there, and actually rather like it... Especially in that color. But as a new generation of the Si, it also still strikes me as more heavily scripted when compared to previous generations.

Does anybody know if Honda ever fixed the 1.5T's problem with dumping large quantities of gas into the oil?

Duke
Duke MegaDork
10/19/21 12:12 p.m.
dculberson said:
Duke said:

You are correct, 200 is less than 205.  But since "horsepower" is an incremental unit that is counted to quantify a specific amount, the correct word is fewer.

If you have a recipe for soup that calls for 8 cups of water and you only put in 6, you put in less water, but you put in fewer cups of water.

Here endeth the lesson.

See my post above. You say "cups of water" - plural - so it's fewer, but you say "horsepower" - note singular - so you use less.

I was never taught that rule, but I will look into it.  Thank you for the link and information.

And apologies to Colin if I am wrong!

 

Junghole
Junghole SuperDork
10/19/21 12:22 p.m.

Really... 300rpm. Just hilarious how automotive manufacturers will attempt to put a positive spin on anything.
 

It makes less power, at less RPM, and the same amount of torque, the only supposedly good thing is that it comes 300 RPMs earlier. And That's not even enough to make a difference at autocross.
 

It sounds like there was some sort of tuning software glitch and that resulted in the change, and instead of fixing it they just went ahead and told everybody that they "improved" the engine. 

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/19/21 12:31 p.m.

I actually really like it. Hatchback would be preferred for convenience reasons, but looks-wise they are almost the same. 

This + a Hondata tune and I bet it will be seeing 275hp. 
 

madmrak351
madmrak351 New Reader
10/19/21 12:39 p.m.

Math is quantitative. English is irritative. If I understand what you meant you have succeeded in communication. Isn’t that the purpose of language.

madmrak351
madmrak351 New Reader
10/19/21 12:39 p.m.

Math is quantitative. English is irritative. If I understand what you meant you have succeeded in communication. Isn’t that the purpose of language.

madmrak351
madmrak351 New Reader
10/19/21 12:39 p.m.

Math is quantitative. English is irritative. If I understand what you meant you have succeeded in communication. Isn’t that the purpose of language.

madmrak351
madmrak351 New Reader
10/19/21 12:39 p.m.

Math is quantitative. English is irritative. If I understand what you meant you have succeeded in communication. Isn’t that the purpose of language.

Aspen
Aspen HalfDork
10/19/21 12:54 p.m.

In reply to dculberson :

If you think of them as 200 units of horsepower then fewer fits better.  IMHO 

When we talk of the non distinct power then less is better.

einy (Forum Supporter)
einy (Forum Supporter) Dork
10/19/21 1:23 p.m.

Will be interested to see one in person, as well as the new Integra.  I have some time on my hands to wait until then before making my next purchase decision, which is nice.  

trucke
trucke SuperDork
10/19/21 1:31 p.m.

Since the demise of my daily Focus sedan, I'm in the market for a replacement.  This could fit the bill.  Looks like a good mix for a great daily driver.  I really like the Blazing Orange Pearl color.  That would make it easy to find in a crowded parking lot.  The mechanical LSD is a great selling point for me too!

When it comes time to play, there is a 2019 CTR in the garage!

Tony Sestito
Tony Sestito PowerDork
10/19/21 2:39 p.m.

My thoughts from what I'm seeing so far:

-Looks great! The new Civic looks fantastic in person, and the Si looks drastically better on my computer screen than both the regular Civic and the outgoing Si. Less weirdness, and it looks more mature, even in that orange paint. I do wish they offered the hatch in Si form, but the Integra seems to be filling that void.

-The interior looks fantastic. Again, I liked it in the regular Civic, and this one turns the wick up a bit.

-I'm seeing a lot of people on the interwebs freaking out about the new Si. Most people are grabbing the pitchforks and torches over the loss of 5hp. I can nearly guarantee that those people (or much anyone else) could feel a difference. The Si isn't supposed to be a barn-burner; it's a hotter flavor commuter car for people that like to drive. 200hp in the age of 300+hp Camrys doesn't seem much, but I'm sure it's going to be fun to drive.

Honda seems to be sticking to the regular Si formula, and I commend them for that. I'm just glad the Honda Civic Si still exists with a performance-oriented 4-cylinder and a real manual transmission.

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
10/19/21 2:45 p.m.
Aspen said:

In reply to dculberson :

If you think of them as 200 units of horsepower then fewer fits better.  IMHO 

When we talk of the non distinct power then less is better.

Well, see that's the thing. "Fewer than 200 units of horsepower" makes sense, but that's because "units" is plural. Remove the "units of" and it becomes "less than 200 horsepower." "Horsepower" in this sentence is singular. Using fewer there would be like saying "Fewer than one apple," which doesn't work. "Less than one apple," would be the right way to say it.

I hope nobody's upset by this, I legitimately think it's an interesting conversation. Which may be strange to some people, but I never claimed to be anything else.

GCrites80s
GCrites80s HalfDork
10/19/21 3:21 p.m.

How about "less torques"?

Region_Rat
Region_Rat New Reader
10/19/21 3:31 p.m.

In reply to trucke :

Came from a similar situation and in an Elantra N-line now, give it a test drive before you make the decision.  As a daily I love it.

madmrak351
madmrak351 New Reader
10/19/21 4:10 p.m.

In reply to dculberson :

Sorry: I am obviously having a grumpy old man day. Please excuse me.

Mr. Peabody
Mr. Peabody UltimaDork
10/19/21 5:22 p.m.
madmrak351 said:

Isn’t that the purpose of language.

It sounds like a question, but the punctuation indicates otherwise.  What are you trying to say?

Oh, and the word less in the title should be capitalized .

 

 

dj06482 (Forum Supporter)
dj06482 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
10/19/21 5:34 p.m.

I'm not overly concerned about the loss of a few horsepower. Even the Almighty Mustang is losing a few ponies in the next model year due to emissions changes.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/19/21 5:43 p.m.
dculberson said:
Duke said:

You are correct, 200 is less than 205.  But since "horsepower" is an incremental unit that is counted to quantify a specific amount, the correct word is fewer.

If you have a recipe for soup that calls for 8 cups of water and you only put in 6, you put in less water, but you put in fewer cups of water.

Here endeth the lesson.

 

See my post above. You say "cups of water" - plural - so it's fewer, but you say "horsepower" - note singular - so you use less.

I love this forum.

We've completely missed that Honda is claiming that a bloated Accord is the most fun Civic Si yet, and we're having an existential discussion on the intricacies of the wonderfully malformed language that is English.

 

FWIW - Less.  Horsepower is a concept.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/19/21 5:44 p.m.
dj06482 (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm not overly concerned about the loss of a few horsepower. 

"Fewination". cheeky

Mr. Peabody
Mr. Peabody UltimaDork
10/19/21 5:46 p.m.

We’ve not missed it, it’s the reason we’re talking about something other than the car. It’s infinitely more interesting.  

madmrak351
madmrak351 New Reader
10/19/21 6:39 p.m.

In reply to Mr. Peabody :Got me, lol. So if a rhetorical question is not really a question is it a statement?  That’s too deep for me!

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
10/19/21 8:24 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
dj06482 (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm not overly concerned about the loss of a few horsepower. 

"Fewination". cheeky

Gonedownication, don't be silly.

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/19/21 8:48 p.m.

I actually think it looks fantastic. Finally a Civic Si that a 45-year-old like me can drive and not feel a bit silly like I'm having a midlife crisis.

That said, 1.5T with 200hp doesn't excite me. At all. The 2.0T in my GTI is unexciting enough. Losing a few HP isn't a big deal, except for the fact that it started with too few in the first place vs. almost any of the competition. LSD would be a good sell....if the GTI didn't have one too. 

The Civic R drivetrain in this "adult" body....THAT would get me excited to trade in my GTI. 

CyberEric
CyberEric Dork
10/19/21 9:22 p.m.

The positive for me: the looks and that they kept the weight down. I'm amazed about the weight when I consider this thing is probably the size of a 2002 Accord. Real diff and MT.

The negative: the 1.5 turbo issues.

itsarebuild
itsarebuild Dork
10/19/21 9:41 p.m.

I'm going to admit I am interested. I have adult friends and colleagues so 4 doors are good. A hatch is a good way to loose my laptop or tools to thieves. And the thought of getting these needs filled with a reasonably quick car with manual trans and LSD makes me happy. 
 

I may still wait for an electric version to satisfy my needs but this may extend that change a few years.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/19/21 9:46 p.m.

Far better looking both inside and out. But yeah, 200 HP in this day and time doesn't cause much commotion. They're kinda going the Mazda direction: great styling and dynamics, but meh power. 

Datsun310Guy
Datsun310Guy MegaDork
10/19/21 9:51 p.m.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

They're kinda going the Mazda direction: great styling and dynamics, but meh power. 

Along with the 188hp turbo Nismo Sentra that quietly died......

calteg
calteg Dork
10/20/21 8:15 a.m.

Put me in the "I like it" camp. I'm a sucker for orange, and that interior is gorgeous. Let's be honest, no one on this board will notice a 5hp difference, especially when every minivan makes 100hp more than a civic SI. 

 

My only concern is price. It does seem like they'll struggle to keep this one under $30k

CyberEric
CyberEric Dork
10/20/21 10:13 a.m.

The regular civic is already nearly 30k in some trims, so yeah, I think it's unlikely th Si will be.

gearheadE30
gearheadE30 Dork
10/20/21 10:18 a.m.

I really like the back end and the interior, lots of Audi and Mazda cues there. The front does absolutely nothing for me though. It just looks like a droopy amalgam of all the other sedans on the road.

Seems like if it didn't have an Si badge, we would all say it seemed like a great little car, but it doesn't seem to meet the expectations (hopes?) that come with that badge.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UltimaDork
10/20/21 10:24 a.m.

If you want to be really nitpicky:

At any rate, Honda also notes that the Civic gets the same rev-matching system used in the Civic Type R, capable of a “430 m/s response time.”

430 meters per second is 961 miles per hour. Exactly what in the rev-matching system is moving at supersonic speeds?

einy (Forum Supporter)
einy (Forum Supporter) Dork
10/20/21 10:34 a.m.

I believe the Honda claim is rev matching takes 430 milliseconds ...

CyberEric
CyberEric Dork
10/20/21 11:01 a.m.

To me the Si and GTI were always in the running for fun small cars. I do think the GTI is leaving the Si in the dust, at least in terms of power.

Tony Sestito
Tony Sestito PowerDork
10/20/21 11:18 a.m.

I let this one sit a little bit, and I have more thoughts:

Last year, I shopped the old Civic Si against its competition when I needed to replace my aging Mazda 3 DD. I ended up driving home a 2020 Kia Forte GT 6MT. On paper, it was similar to the SI in many ways:
-6-speed manual
-Around 200 turbocharged HP
-IRS, upgraded suspension bits and big brakes
-Sport seats
-Decent infotainment with Carplay/Android Auto
-Good fuel economy
 
Biggest differences were that the Si had the LSD and magnetic shocks, while the Kia had LED lighting, a sport exhaust, and cost thousands less in reality due to it being a Kia (on paper, they were near equal). A year and a month later, I don't regret the decision. Car has been great and continues to be a blast to drive.

I think 200hp is the sweet spot for a car like this. Keep the weight under 3k lbs, make it light on its feet, offer good tech, and you'll have a winner on your hands for people who want a sporty DD. You want more? Get a Type R, Elantra/Veloster N, etc.

As for its competition, right now, Hyundai/Kia gets it, and is offering both the Elantra and Forte in multiple performance models to compete with the Si. VW has recently upped the ante with more HP with the GLI/GTI, but they cost a little more to get one comparably equipped. Mazda lost its way with the latest version of the 3; turbo cars are expensive, as are MT-equipped N/A cars, and the N/A manuals are not nearly as fun to drive as they used to be. The US automakers have nothing at all to offer here in the States, so they are out. Toyota is about 40hp off with the current Corolla, but is trending in the right direction, offering some handling packages for the sedan. And Nissan could've had something with the Sentra, but they overpriced it and it was half baked at best, so that's gone. This class of car is dwindling, so again, I'm glad that Honda is still a player. They set the bar for everyone else, so it will be interesting to see how the new Si affects the segment.
 

APEowner
APEowner GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
10/20/21 11:25 a.m.

I like the looks and if it really handles better than the last version it should be a great driving car.  Loosing 5hp on top and fattening the torque curve should make it more fun to drive and might even make it faster.

I like 4 doors for a street car so the lack of a two door hatchback doesn't bother me but I totally get why someone who's nostalgic for the hot hatch Civics of yore would be disappointed.

 

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) Dork
10/20/21 11:34 a.m.
APEowner said:

I like the looks and if it really handles better than the last version it should be a great driving car.  Loosing 5hp on top and fattening the torque curve should make it more fun to drive and might even make it faster.

I like 4 doors for a street car so the lack of a two door hatchback doesn't bother me but I totally get why someone who's nostalgic for the hot hatch Civics of yore would be disappointed.

 

I bought a brand new CRX SI in 1987 and Mrs. Snowdoggie drives a new CRV, but this just doesn't do it for me. A two door hatchback would be nice as would a new Del Sol.

Probably why I went on down the street to the Ford Dealer for an Ecoboost Mustang.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/20/21 12:18 p.m.
MadScientistMatt said:

If you want to be really nitpicky:

At any rate, Honda also notes that the Civic gets the same rev-matching system used in the Civic Type R, capable of a “430 m/s response time.”

430 meters per second is 961 miles per hour. Exactly what in the rev-matching system is moving at supersonic speeds?

The electronics?

trucke
trucke SuperDork
10/20/21 3:37 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
MadScientistMatt said:

If you want to be really nitpicky:

At any rate, Honda also notes that the Civic gets the same rev-matching system used in the Civic Type R, capable of a “430 m/s response time.”

430 meters per second is 961 miles per hour. Exactly what in the rev-matching system is moving at supersonic speeds?

The electronics?

My Type R has the rev-match and it works okay.  The first time I drove the car was like 'what the @#$% was that?'  Turned it off!  Once you're in the lower gear, the car reads the gear and blips the throttle.  Seems like it always overshoots a bit on the rpm's making it a bit of a challenge to be smooth.  But then again, I turned it off so I really don't have any practice with it.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
10/20/21 4:26 p.m.

In my mind, the Integra will have the same mechanical specs. So, Civic Si or Integra? Hmmm. A five-door Civic Si would be pretty cool. 

einy (Forum Supporter)
einy (Forum Supporter) Dork
10/20/21 5:07 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:

In my mind, the Integra will have the same mechanical specs. So, Civic Si or Integra? Hmmm. A five-door Civic Si would be pretty cool. 

I totally agree.  I just hope the "rev hang" issue is gone, as that was a huge detractor on the 10th gen Si that I previously owned.

Woody (Forum Supportum)
Woody (Forum Supportum) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/20/21 5:13 p.m.
dculberson said:
Duke said:

*ahem*

 

Less power.  Fewer horsepower.

 

Thank you.

 

Interesting. I never thought about it. "Fewer" is used if the thing is countable, but you're not counting horsepower, you're measuring it. According to dictionary.com, "Less is used for singular mass nouns." So you could say "fewer horsepowers," but you would say "less horsepower." Since we don't pluralize horsepower, less is indeed correct, in my opinion.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/fewer-vs-less/

 

Less horsepower, fewer ponies. 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
10/20/21 5:23 p.m.

In reply to einy (Forum Supporter) :

You know, that never bothered me with our long-term Civic Si. In fact, I offered to buy the car when the loan ran out. At the same time, a friend offered me a smoking deal on his car--another yellow Si coupe. His price was very fair. But this all went down like the second week of Covid, and since I didn't know what the future held I passed on both cars. 

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/20/21 7:11 p.m.
Tony Sestito said:

. VW has recently upped the ante with more HP with the GLI/GTI, but they cost a little more to get one comparably equipped.

I'm not sure how prices have adjusted in the past 3 years, but in 2018 when I bought my GTI (SE, with sunroof, big brakes, LSD, 6MT, upgraded audio, etc). I paid $28k out the door (including taxes, tags, etc). I looked at that year's Civic Si and I think they wanted $32k for it (not including taxes, tags, etc).  Even for the SAME price, the 2018 GTI was simply a better car. I'm not sure if VW has jacked the price on them due to 3 years of inflation or whatever, but I suspect a "comparably-equpped GTI" is still probably somewhat cheaper in actual price (maybe not MSRP, since Honda never seems to drop prices). Hell, I think a 2018 WRX was about the same price they wanted for an '18 Civic Si when I looked. 

Honda still seems to think people will pay top dollar for the name, even though in most respects (other than reliability?) its competitors like the GTI (and others) give similar or better performance and features for less dollars. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/20/21 7:43 p.m.

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter) :

Honda people pay top dollar for the name.  I handle my Bill's toupee and my moustophe maintaining Hondas.  Ever see someone dump $5-6k on a 200k mile 15 year old... anything that wasn't an enthusiast niche vehicle?

 

(In other news, I'm getting rather quick at J35 piston ring replacement, but Odysseys kinda suck for room to work)

Woody (Forum Supportum)
Woody (Forum Supportum) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/20/21 7:47 p.m.

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter) :

I don't think that I qualify as a Honda fanboi, but I see Volkswagens as 100k mile cars , whereas I expect Hondas to go 280k. 
 

Volkswagens look great and have nice interiors though. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/20/21 7:52 p.m.

In reply to Woody (Forum Supportum) :

I AM a VW fanboy, and I wouldn't drive any VWAG product with a timing chain past its warranty period.

It's not specifically the chains that are the problem, it's all the other things that came with them, not just on the engines but electronically as well.  It's a good litmus test, like counting the number of bolts on a GM rearend's diff cover.

 

I especially like how they recognized that German manufacturing has never figured out how to make rubber hoses that don't biodegrade audibly, so they replaced everything with plastic lines... that also biodegrade audibly.

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/20/21 8:15 p.m.

There's a reason I bought mine the year VW offered the 6/72k limited ;) I don't really trust VWs either, but that said it's been flawless for the first 3/36k so far. I also don't really believe that Hondas today have the same multi-decade reliability they did back in the 90s, YMMV. 

itsarebuild
itsarebuild Dork
10/20/21 8:55 p.m.

In reply to Tony Sestito :

I agree with you on the forte GT. I wandered into one waiting for a table to open at an adjacent restaurant and was amazed at how the fit and finish has improved. Unfortunately this was late COVID and few manual GT's were around and the one I sat in was unfortunately red and owned by a dealer with a sizable MSRP markup.

 

I read that the new forte is going to be an SUV thingy for 2022? Is that right or bad info? I hope bad info

einy (Forum Supporter)
einy (Forum Supporter) Dork
10/21/21 5:30 a.m.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:

I looked at that year's Civic Si and I think they wanted $32k for it (not including taxes, tags, )

The 2020 Si sedan that I bought had a list price of $25,200 plus $930 destination.  There were no options or packages offered beyond that, other than Honda accessories.  

Tony Sestito
Tony Sestito PowerDork
10/21/21 8:37 a.m.
itsarebuild said:

In reply to Tony Sestito :

I agree with you on the forte GT. I wandered into one waiting for a table to open at an adjacent restaurant and was amazed at how the fit and finish has improved. Unfortunately this was late COVID and few manual GT's were around and the one I sat in was unfortunately red and owned by a dealer with a sizable MSRP markup.

 

I read that the new forte is going to be an SUV thingy for 2022? Is that right or bad info? I hope bad info

The 2022 Forte is just a refresh of the current car. They changed up the front and rear fascias, made some changes to the interior/infotainment, and trickled down some of the safety tech from the GT2 package to the lower models.

Here's the 2022 GT:

Here's my 2020 GT:

I think mine looks less busy up front, and I like the headlights better.

Tony Sestito
Tony Sestito PowerDork
10/21/21 8:42 a.m.

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter) :

You make some good points. I've actually tried to buy a Civic Si twice now, back in the Fall of 2011 and the Fall of 2020. Both times, I was met with sky high prices, "Adjusted Market Value" BS, and no deals or incentives. Dealers basically put them out there at whatever price they wanted and people would buy them regardless of the price. Every other car manufacturer in the segment was open to wheeling and dealing with incentives and discounts, but not Honda. They know someone will pay the price. Even the Kia dealer tried the "there's no incentives on the GT" dance, trying to "pull a Honda" and I still walked out of there with heavy discounts.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
10/21/21 8:52 a.m.

I paid 22 OTD for my Veloster.  In retrospect I don't know that I would compare it against an Si.  The lack of a LSD is a big deal.  (then again, the lack of a hatch in the Si is a big deal too)

The Civic Sport may be more comparable on paper, and it stickered at $21,450.  This is probably the comparison point I would use for the Forte GT.

 

 

Hyundai should offer a Torsen in all their turbo FWD manual 'sporty' cars

 

BLRB
BLRB New Reader
10/21/21 11:05 a.m.

In reply to Tony Sestito :

This is true when I was Civic Si shopping.  Although there was no up front ADM, they all had $2K in dealer fees and accessories.  I ended up getting 2 offers to buy $1K below MSRP after a month of shopping around the state.  Luckily, I got it before the supply chain madness prices.  

dj06482 (Forum Supporter)
dj06482 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
10/21/21 12:49 p.m.

As the current owner of two Hondas (and recent former owner of a third), they definitely don't have the multi-decade reliability they had in the 90s that made them famous.  They can be solid, but definitely have their issues like everything else.  The newest Odyssey and Pilot have a lot of issues, but I don't follow anything else to be able to compare them against another brand of new SUV/minivan.

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter)
pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/21/21 1:18 p.m.

If I have a certain amount of energy in the morning, but less energy by the evening, do I have fewer energy or less energy? Hmmmm. Or is my energy level reduced? Or perhaps diminished? My wife would know, she's the grammar nazi. 

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter)
pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/21/21 1:20 p.m.

Oh wow, do you capitalize nazi? Do you show them the respect? Is that a formal name in that sentence?

calteg
calteg Dork
10/21/21 1:39 p.m.

Just saw the EPA estimate of 37mpg highway. That's wild, but within the realm of reason for a 1.5L

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/21/21 1:48 p.m.

In reply to calteg :

It's not the engine size, it's the chassis shape and size.  It will always take a certain amount of fuel to make the power to punch a hole in a 60mph headwind.

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
10/21/21 2:29 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

The best internal combustion engines are only around 20% thermal efficiency.  Aero makes a big difference but the engineers have gained, and will continue to gain, a lot on the actual motor efficiency side of the equation too.

Snrub
Snrub Dork
10/21/21 2:37 p.m.

The engine in the Corolla has 41% thermal efficiency.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/21/21 4:25 p.m.

...and engine size is not super critical, except insofar as where it is in the BSFC curve at the required torque output for that speed.

 

Someone was telling me that a lot of engines have compression ratios 1-2 numbers higher than what is ideal for the rest of the engine with respect to making peak power, because it is more important to bring up efficiency when the engine is running at 5-10% throttle.

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