Why Are We Strangely Attracted to This Minivan That Claims to Not Be a Minivan?

Colin
By Colin Wood
Apr 8, 2021 | Kia, minivan, Carnival

Photograph Courtesy Kia

In case you missed it, the Kia Sedona is no more, replaced with the much more exciting-sounding Carnival (which is what overseas markets have been calling the Sedona since it was introduced many years ago) for the 2022 model year.

And now, Kia has introduced its marketing campaign for the Carnival, titled “What Else Ya Got?”:


The key theme we picked up on? The Carnival isn’t a minivan, it’s a pseudo-SUV.

Anything you can do in an SUV—taking the dirt bikes out for a spin, going off the grid in a trailer, bringing the boat down to the lake—you can do with the Carnival. And the styling certainly seems to reflect that, as we found ourselves having to search a little harder to find those minivan proportions.

If that’s the true message here, then that’s an approach we can get behind: As we've been preaching for years, minivans are cool. 

You can run one on One Lap of America

They're welcome at the $2000 Challenge

Our community realizes they can make great alternatives to a pickup.  

We realize there are plenty of people out there that don’t want to be seen in a minivan, despite how practical they are. So, if Kia can market the Carnival as a “un-minivan,” maybe those people might be more likely to get the minivan they need, and not settle for an SUV or crossover that doesn’t fully meet their needs.

Do you think Kia is on to something here and will be able to convert MPV naysayers into true minivan converts? Or will most people realize that the Carnival is nothing more than a thinly disguised minivan?

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Comments
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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/8/21 11:45 a.m.

SUVs and minivans have been converging for a while into a form factor people like. Maybe it's the labels that are outdated.

Although it's hard not to attach the term "van" to something with a sliding side door.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
4/8/21 11:53 a.m.

I'm glad they did not cave and get rid of the sliding door.  Looking at you, Chevy Traverse.  

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
4/8/21 12:03 p.m.

I got all hot and bothered when I saw the commercial showing it towing a big boat, as lack of towing capacity was the only complaint I had with my Sienna. Yeah, 3500 lb capacity- same as my Sienna. Apparently big boats are weightless in Marketing World. 

spandak
spandak HalfDork
4/8/21 12:07 p.m.

The front end reminds me of an Explorer.

i think they have a winner on their hands. I totally get the appeal.

spacecadet (Forum Supporter)
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
4/8/21 12:08 p.m.
spandak said:

The front end reminds me of an Explorer.

I had the same thought.. and Keith is right.. the styling is converging.. 

Wally (Forum Supporter)
Wally (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/8/21 12:08 p.m.

Anything named Carnival should have a deep fryer in the center console. 

Stefan (Forum Supporter)
Stefan (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/8/21 12:09 p.m.

Perception is everything. 

Marketing is all about perception.

If it works for them, congrats.

 

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
4/8/21 12:15 p.m.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

I got all hot and bothered when I saw the commercial showing it towing a big boat, as lack of towing was the only complaint I had with my Sienna. Yeah, 3500 lb capacity- same as my Sienna. Apparently big boats are weightless in Marketing World. 

I sent to video to my powerboat expert to ask him what kind of boat/trailer that is.  

How much does an small Airstream weight?  There is one of those too. 

A 1999 Airstream 19' Bambi weights 3,600 lbs...empty!  So, that doesn't work either. 

 

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) UberDork
4/8/21 12:29 p.m.

I like it, but am not so sure about their marketing department. Carnival? Sonata? Maybe they'll buy the rights from Nissan for the Fairlady while they're at it. 

NickD
NickD MegaDork
4/8/21 12:30 p.m.

The new Kia styling language looks like a Skoda.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
4/8/21 1:31 p.m.
NickD said:

The new Kia styling language looks like a Skoda.

I'm really really uneasy about the new Hyundai / Kia design direction.  They were solid for a while and seemed poised to knock it out of the park, but so far they have all been foul tips.  The rear designs are spectacular on some of the new Hyundais but the fronts are headed down the gaping fish maw path that I would have figured we had all gotten tired of by now.

 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
4/8/21 1:44 p.m.

2021 Hyundai Elantra N Line

I LOVE YOU - rainbow spongebob - quickmeme

2021 Hyundai Elantra N Line

Spongebob Mocking Meme Template - Album on Imgur

 

 

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia SuperDork
4/8/21 1:47 p.m.

When does a minivan  change into an SUV ?

I think of a minivan as a low loading area in the back and a sliding side door , 

Chevy Astro Van  is what I have , 

But is there a list of what makes a Mini Van ?

ultraclyde
ultraclyde GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
4/8/21 2:01 p.m.
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

Anything named Carnival should have a deep fryer in the center console. 

Or a swimming pool on the roof and a 24/7 buffet. 

My wife's first question when I ask about changing cars is, "Does it have a sliding door?" 
 

It's a non-negotiable requirement.

CyberEric
CyberEric Dork
4/8/21 3:35 p.m.

Meh. I’m way more excited about the actual mini van Hyundai is going to build. Can’t remember the name, but it’s like a modern take on the space ship van and is the coolest looking Hyundai I’ve seen.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/8/21 3:39 p.m.
californiamilleghia said:

When does a minivan  change into an SUV ?

I think of a minivan as a low loading area in the back and a sliding side door , 

Chevy Astro Van  is what I have , 

But is there a list of what makes a Mini Van ?

I can tell you that Honda Element owners get quite excited when you refer to their rides as a minivan. This is based on a fairly small sample size of one, but boy was it fun to push that button.

So, whatever a minivan is, a Honda Element is not one. I have been so informed enthusiastically and repeatedly.

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
4/8/21 4:25 p.m.
Colin Wood said:

Anything you can do in an SUV—taking the dirt bikes out for a spin, going off the grid in a trailer, bringing the boat down to the lake—you can do with the Carnival.

So it's exactly the same as the current Sedona. 

After all that hype, I was briefly hopeful for more of a substantial revision and less of a superficial facelift... Particularly hoping for somebody to finally give one of these a towing capacity closer to the (same platform) 3-row S(C)UV's. I came in worried I would want to trade mine in for one, and am surprised to be more disappointed than relieved that I actually have absolutely zero desire to. 

And then there's reverting to the (more failed than 'minivan') MPV designation and calling it the Carnival. Is anybody, especially those concerned about the minivan image, going to be able to tell people with a straight face that they drive a Carnival? And I thought Palisade was bad...

.

John Welsh said:

How much does an small Airstream weight?  There is one of those too. 

A 1999 Airstream 19' Bambi weights 3,600 lbs...empty!  So, that doesn't work either. 

I believe the 16' Bambi weighs in right around 3k, with a 3.5k GVWR. So that would be just fine. Then again, empty weight is the only one that has ever even come close to mattering for automotive marketing departments and RV sales departments.

John Welsh said:
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

I got all hot and bothered when I saw the commercial showing it towing a big boat, as lack of towing was the only complaint I had with my Sienna. Yeah, 3500 lb capacity- same as my Sienna. Apparently big boats are weightless in Marketing World. 

I sent to video to my powerboat expert to ask him what kind of boat/trailer that is.  

Well, it's on a dual axle trailer, so that's telling.  In new boats, single axle trailer up to around 3000lb boat weight, tandems for 3500 and up.  Not including the weight of the trailer......

 

mtn
mtn MegaDork
4/8/21 4:42 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
californiamilleghia said:

When does a minivan  change into an SUV ?

I think of a minivan as a low loading area in the back and a sliding side door , 

Chevy Astro Van  is what I have , 

But is there a list of what makes a Mini Van ?

I can tell you that Honda Element owners get quite excited when you refer to their rides as a minivan. This is based on a fairly small sample size of one, but boy was it fun to push that button.

So, whatever a minivan is, a Honda Element is not one. I have been so informed enthusiastically and repeatedly.

 

That is pretty funny. Ignoring that it can only hold 4 people, it is probably the most 2nd most useful vehicle for those that don't need to tow... Behind the minivan. 

 

For me, however, a requirement for a minivan is sliding doors. This one has it. It is a minvian. It is a good thing. We also have a Sedona, FWIW. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/8/21 4:46 p.m.

I will just add that this is a station wagon. It says so right on the package. It will also seat 7. Labels are hard :)

The badge on the back...

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/8/21 8:03 p.m.

A Sport Utility Van. SUV. 

 

Wait .. 

Patientzero
Patientzero GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
4/8/21 8:08 p.m.
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) said:
spandak said:

The front end reminds me of an Explorer.

I had the same thought.. and Keith is right.. the styling is converging.. 

 

I actually thought the front end looked like a mini-van and the rest of it looked like an explorer.  Weird.

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/8/21 8:41 p.m.

IDK, looks like a minivan to me. 

I got excited for a moment thinking it could actually tow substantial stuff, but 3500# is pretty much what other minivans can tow.

 

Scotty Con Queso
Scotty Con Queso SuperDork
4/8/21 8:51 p.m.

As a 2016 Sedona owner, this looks very much like a revised version of my van. 

We love our Sedona by the way. 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
4/9/21 8:32 a.m.
spandak said:

The front end reminds me of an Explorer.

i think they have a winner on their hands. I totally get the appeal.

You're right, the side profile does have a bit of Ford in it. 

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
4/9/21 8:39 a.m.

For years, I've asked, why can't GM just make a sliding door Suburban?  Hell, the new 'Burbans get over 20 mpg on the highway, with a V8 and 4 wheel drive, and will haul just about anything a sane person might have a desire to. 

jb229
jb229 New Reader
4/9/21 10:03 a.m.

Aren't US tow ratings massively under-estimated compared to Euro tow ratings?

 

Like, in the US you're considered crazy to try to tow something with your Mazda3 but people tow small caravans and trailers in the UK and EU with them all the time.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
4/9/21 10:12 a.m.

In reply to jb229 :

Pretty much.  But we also assume "tow rating" means "I can tow 'x' while going 75 in the hammer lane", whereas I believe in Euro-land folks are a bit more conservative with their driving habits while towing.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
4/9/21 10:18 a.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

In Austrailia, a Kia Minivan is rated for 2,000kg (4,409 lbs) but specifically notes "braked" or a trailer with brakes.  

Similar disparity on my Dodge Grand Caravan where Dodge says 3,600 lbs but the hitch manufacturer says 4,400.  

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
4/9/21 10:20 a.m.

In reply to jb229 :

I've questioned the foreign vs domestic towing capacities before too, but it actually made some sense to me when I looked into it further.

My understanding is that foreign tow ratings are generally based on lower speeds requiring a lower stability factor. As such, they are allowed to run as low as 4% (target 5%-7%) tongue weight. Even braked I don't know too many people that would recommend towing at American highway speeds with a 4% (or even 5%-7%) tongue weight, especially while maxing out the tongue weight for the chassis. Their hitches also mount differently to the car, so the max tongue weight loading for the chassis is not necessarily interchangeable either. 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
4/9/21 10:24 a.m.
volvoclearinghouse said:

For years, I've asked, why can't GM just make a sliding door Suburban?  Hell, the new 'Burbans get over 20 mpg on the highway, with a V8 and 4 wheel drive, and will haul just about anything a sane person might have a desire to. 

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/9/21 10:29 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I will just add that this is a station wagon. It says so right on the package. It will also seat 7. Labels are hard :)

The badge on the back...

According to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, this is a station wagon.  Says so right on the title and owner's card:

No sliding doors either, so not a minivan. 

For me, where SUV's lose out to minivans is the interior space to overall length comparison (I have the same issue with full size vans vs. pick-up trucks). There is balance between front end length ahead of the passenger compartment and keeping the engine somewhat serviceable.  Most minivans do that well - mostly due to typically transverse engine layout. Full-size vans lose here. I open the hood of my E350 and most of the engine is buried in the firewall.  Not fun to work on.  Hell, even just getting the batteries in/out isn't a fun task (something I apparently need to do often...) due to the height and tight confines (and my still somewhat broken shoulder).

Anyway... I see nothing in this new Kia that would make me want one over a Sedona or the Grand Caravan I already have.  I see a few things I don't like - less floor to ceiling height, cargo room, etc.  But I am also an outlier in that I rarely use my minivan as a people hauler and mostly as a cargo hauler.  I'm about "> <" this far from gutting the seats out so I can have more storage if I decide to go all-in on making it a camper and abandon the E-350 dream.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/9/21 10:48 a.m.
volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to jb229 :

Pretty much.  But we also assume "tow rating" means "I can tow 'x' while going 75 in the hammer lane over a 10,000' pass", whereas I believe in Euro-land folks are a bit more conservative with their driving habits while towing.

Added a bit of extra clarity for you there. 

Americans want a tow vehicle that will be able to do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their driving at all. Europeans are willing to accept that they will have to drive differently when towing.

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
4/9/21 11:08 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Americans want to use a vehicle that will safely do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their driving style.

Europeans want to use a driving style that will safely do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their car.

Which would you rather be stuck behind?

jb229
jb229 New Reader
4/9/21 11:09 a.m.
Driven5 said:

In reply to jb229 :

Their hitches also mount differently to the car, so the max tongue weight loading for the chassis is not necessarily interchangeable either. 

That's an interesting point, because why couldn't you just import the overseas hitch mount?  How would an overseas hitch mount differently if the chassis is the same globally?

jb229
jb229 New Reader
4/9/21 11:12 a.m.

In reply to Driven5 :

The one that's more likely to remember to check the tire pressures and remember to make sure the chain is correctly attached, heh.

Sometimes you do have to wonder how often they actually ticket people for towing CDL capacity trailers with private vehicles.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
4/9/21 11:13 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

So, apparently, all the big rigs on the road out there are horribly underpowered, as I get stuck behind them all the time doing 40 on the highway up a 5% grade.  berkeleying European trucks!  Why can't they have enough power to blast that hill at 80 mph like a 3500 Boss Ramerado Duty Super King Rancho LTZ Dually Crew Cab 6x6 towing a 6 horse trailer???

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/9/21 11:26 a.m.
jb229 said:
Driven5 said:

In reply to jb229 :

Their hitches also mount differently to the car, so the max tongue weight loading for the chassis is not necessarily interchangeable either. 

That's an interesting point, because why couldn't you just import the overseas hitch mount?  How would an overseas hitch mount differently if the chassis is the same globally?

Some Euro hitches don't have US-compliant chain loops.  I know this is the issue with the Bosal hitch for my Mk IV Jetta that was a dealer option in Europe, but hard to get in the US (a couple of VW vendors sold them). The spare-tire jack holder in my Jetta already has a molded slot for the Bosal plug-in ball component. 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
4/9/21 11:44 a.m.
volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

So, apparently, all the big rigs on the road out there are horribly underpowered

I don't think any of them would pass SAE j2807, which clearly states its purpose is to create an apples to apples comparison between manufacturers, not to determine safe tow limits.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/9/21 11:53 a.m.
Driven5 said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Americans want to use a vehicle that will safely do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their driving style.

Europeans want to use a driving style that will safely do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their car.

Which would you rather be stuck behind?

Every day? The European. I'll take someone who responds to their vehicle's status over someone who has no idea how large/heavy/overpowered it is. I can always pass if I need to.

Note that I live in a rural area where we come across tractors and gators and other slow farm machinery fairly often. Some vehicles are slower than others and that's okay.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/9/21 11:53 a.m.
volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

So, apparently, all the big rigs on the road out there are horribly underpowered, as I get stuck behind them all the time doing 40 on the highway up a 5% grade.  berkeleying European trucks!  Why can't they have enough power to blast that hill at 80 mph like a 3500 Boss Ramerado Duty Super King Rancho LTZ Dually Crew Cab 6x6 towing a 6 horse trailer???

I'm going to make a Ramerado badge for my truck now.

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
4/9/21 11:54 a.m.

In reply to jb229 :

I don't know enough about Euro-hitches to generalize that it's inherently better or worse from a structural mounting standpoint, when mounted differently for any given application. Only that it can be different. The receiver and locking mechanism itself is different too. Then of course they use metric ball, that may be close (50mm vs 2") but is still not the right fit for American trailers. 

Since they don't use chains, there goes your wanting to be behind one in the first place.

Travel trailers are also typically limited to something like <50mph due to only using surge brakes, and subsequently and not being able to use WD/sway bars. Again, that lower mandated speed is what lets them safely get away with such low tongue weights.

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
4/9/21 12:03 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

You are grossly overgeneralizing Americans vs Europeans when it comes to the quality and competence of the people actually doing the towing. EVERY country has more than their fair share of idiots who do what idiots do. Europeans are FAR from exempt from this. Loading up a 3300 pound travel trailer behind a 1.6L  Mazda 3 stuffed to the brim with people and luggage may be a demonstration in resourcefulness... But is no more smart and savvy than doing the same in a Sedona pulling 3500 with WD/sway while not causing a traffic jam.

You're also only considering your own local traffic levels vs availability of safe passing zones.

RossD
RossD MegaDork
4/9/21 12:08 p.m.
Driven5 said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Americans want to use a vehicle that will safely do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their driving style.

Europeans want to use a driving style that will safely do the biggest possible job they can imagine without having to change their car.

Which would you rather be stuck behind?

Americans also tend to have enough room to have 2nd and 3rd vehicles at their homes. Make one of them a truck and you would be silly not to use it. Now for the euro-folks living on roads that can barely manage two VW Golfs passing each other without touching the shoulder, you use your econocar to tow. Yes, there are highways, but you still need to get to them...

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/9/21 12:37 p.m.

In reply to Driven5 :

Of course I'm overgeneralizing and of course I am assuming that roads have overtaking room or alternate routes available. I think the latter is reasonable. There's always a way to deal with slower vehicles. I am less concerned with vehicles being driven slowly than you are, it seems. But I am concerned with people driving 20' long 8000 lb trucks (my own is 7700 lbs empty and it's a short bed) as if they were normal cars with normal car stopping distances because I encounter that far more often.

But when you go to Europe (or Australia), it's quite obvious how few private trucks there are. Last time I visited Australia and driving up the coast on the interstate analog, I was trying to spot anyone who was doing the sort of things I do with my truck. And I had no luck. How do race cars get to the track there?

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
4/9/21 12:51 p.m.

In reply to RossD :

That's my point. For any given vehicle, we've traded off ultimate towing capacity for stability at speed. Based on the vehicle and road constraints, they do what makes the most sense there and we do what makes the most sense here. While neither is ideal in all situations, it would be silly to do what they do here, or what we do there.

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
4/9/21 1:03 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I don't follow what you're arguing against at all. It seems you think American vehicles to have too high of a towing capacity, but then also that you think European towing is better because the same tongue weight gets you twice as much trailer capacity as long as you're going slow enough... These seem fairly contradictory to me.

Perhaps you're arguing the former for trucks and the latter for cars... But then that begs the question of why bring an argument about oranges into a discussion about apples?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/9/21 1:15 p.m.

I think Americans over-emphasize towing capacity in purchase decisions because they are not willing to change their driving style while towing an exceptional load, and this means massively oversized vehicles being driven around on a regular basis. And this often means buying a truck (or a truck with a hat like an Excursion or a Sequoia) instead of a car because only a truck will get you that huge towing capacity. I think changing your driving style to match the load on your vehicle is a better approach. Sizing the vehicle for 99% of the use case and then adapting your driving style for the 1% is more logical than sizing your vehicle for the 1% and having it oversized for the 99%.

Now, this all hinges on the "biggest load you will ever carry". It's not the day to day use, it's the "but what if I buy a big boat in North Carolina and I have to get it back to Salt Lake City in two days in December?" situation. Or even "I go on vacation for 10 days a year with a camper and 8 of those days are parked at a campground". 

If you're using a vehicle to tow constantly, it should be sized accordingly. I have no beef with that.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
4/9/21 1:22 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
Driven5 said:

Which would you rather be stuck behind?

I can always pass if I need to.

Except when you can't.  Like on 95% of the 2-lane roads in the entire state of Pennsylvania.

 

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
4/9/21 1:39 p.m.

All I know is that I towed right up to the 3500lb limit on my Sienna a number of times, and I never felt tempted to go over it.  There just wasn't enough braking capacity, and the suspension was way too soft even with airbags in the rear.  The motor did an admirable job though.

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
4/9/21 2:07 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I think Americans over-emphasize towing capacity in purchase decisions because they are not willing to change their driving style while towing an exceptional load, and this means massively oversized vehicles being driven around on a regular basis.

I can't say that I agree on either stereotype, that Americans who tow aren't willing to change their driving habits, nor that this is the reason for so many massively oversized and underutilized vehicles on the road.

The rating system that has been mandated does not require as substantial of a change in driving habits, and liability concerns prevents most people from substantially exceeding that. Not being willing to change, and not needing to change are two very different things. Nobody has ever actually asked me if I would be willing to have a graduated towing scale, where the legal towing capacity of any give vehicle on any given day is determined by the speed I'm willing to drive it. However, I see zero fault in NOT wanting to be excessively speed limited when the load, tongue weight, and stability don't actually warrant doing so. .

For example, taking my Sedona tow rating from a 3500 lb US towing capacity to a 4400 lb UK towing capacity is simply a bad-deal to me if I'm still restricted to 50mph max when running an American style <3500 pounds, 10% tongue, electric brakes, and WD/sway control. But if I could cut my max towing speed to <50mph (even though I'd actually still be more stable than Euro-spec) only for those times I want/need to legally pull 3500-4400 lb, that would be absolutely fine with me.

And of the massively oversized for how they're used 99% of the time vehicles I see on the road, they are more likely to be spec'd out in max off-road/bro configuration than max towing configuration. This indicates to me that towing capacity was not the driving factor in the selection of that size of vehicle. In fact, based on the people I've known and met with massively oversized for how the use them vehicles, I would be willing to argue that it's more common for people to buy such a massively oversized vehicle expressly for the intention of being able to do that extra 1% of stuff hauling in their life without having to pull (and store/rent) a trailer to do so.

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