ICYMI: Ford offering an electric crate motor for less than $4000

Neat, I guess. Maybe I'm just not well enough versed in these things, but until I can get all of the 'not included' stuff needed to make it run too, it comes across to me as a bit of a half-hearted offering just to try to technically claim being 1st by 'beating' the GM E-crate to market... Unless that just ends up being vapor-ware.

I expect we'll see the whole package at SEMA. It'll be like the ICE crates, a full package including all controllers. The format of the batteries is the interesting part, as that's where the current GM "bolt in a box" offering falls short. Depends on how modular the Ford battery system is - we know the next gen GM stuff will be much better.

awww dang. This is getting exciting. 

Hear me out: What about something exotic that needs an engine? Could this get something like a salvageable 308 back on the road? 

In reply to David S. Wallens :

Think of all the bi-turbo's just waiting to be saved lol

Mount the motor where the transmission is on my 1970 Ford F-250. Mount the batteries where the side saddle fuel tanks are now. Clean up the engine compartment and have a nice frunk. The e-motor weighs about the same as the toploader transmission currently in the F250. I could probably put together a battery pack yielding reasonable range the doesn't outweigh the all iron 360 that's in there now. HP and torque would be virtually unchanged. (215hp / 327tq originally) except the old ratings are gross so I bet the truck would be faster and more capable. Hmm.

Or, go whole hog and mount one directly on each differential?

wonder how long SCCA autox mod rules will take to adjust. Is a crate motor from Ford/GM good enough for SCCA?

In reply to David S. Wallens :

Electric Classic Cars just finished a 308 GTS conversion, actually. The owner says he drives it more now because basically it's no longer a pain in the ass. And of course it's considerably faster.

https://www.heritagecarinsurance.co.uk/newsroom/news-and-articles/electric-ferrari-308/

In reply to dculberson (Forum Supporter) :

Solid axle mounted motors are going to be the game changer for old cars. Build one in the format of a Ford 9 inch and watch the interesting old cars get rejuvenated. I'd happily electrify one of the '66 Cadillacs. It would suit their design intent.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

While I'm sure it won't be cheap, a full system release would be a much more interesting piece of news if/when it happens. Battery form factors will definitely be a major consideration with these types of 'crate' systems for retrofitting Although, if building a chassis from scratch, even the Bolt-in-a-box type system would still be a fine.

In reply to David S. Wallens :

I like it. What about a derelict Maserati Merak?

In reply to dculberson (Forum Supporter) :

I'm glad you're back. I love this idea. Also the truck would move the 550 lb of engine (because that's what they actually weighed with iron manifolds and iron water pump and iron intake) from over the front axle to near midships. It would handle!

So, is there a parallel group trying to figure out how to modify factory electric motors?

In reply to mblommel :

If it gets it back on the road from its auto cocoon. 

Does not include Traction inverter, Control system and Battery.  

Battery Assembly for the Mustang is $23k, which is where this engine is derived from.

I am guessing a warranty would be eliminated as soon as you go aftermarket for those needed items.

noob question: What is a "Traction Inverter"?

My best guess is a regenerator, since this is a traction motor. Basically, the thing that turns the motor into a generator to recharge the battery? Not sure.

Batteries are going to be the expensive part, but the motor is cheap compared to an ICE. The good news is that battery prices are falling, and if they're modular enough you can scale them up and down to meet your performance and cost goals.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I am forseeing bolting a kit like this into a Miata. And then making the battery system modular so that you can have all the range you need, and then when you go to autocross, you remove all but maybe one battery that's good for that 60 second run. Then you strap all your other batteries back in and head home.

I am looking forward to seeing someone stuff one of these new generation of motors into a Miata rear subframe.

Although the small battery pack idea does have a flaw - a battery cell can only deliver power at a certain rate. Think of it as having its own little fuel pump, and it can only deliver fuel so fast. If you want more power, you need more cells. That's why you see better performance numbers from EVs with long range, because they have a lot of cells. 

So our "one small battery" Miata is going to be down on power compared to one carrying the full pack. Is it enough to overcome the lower mass? Maybe in a car where the batteries are a very significant percentage of the total mass, like a Lotus Seven type. In the case of a Miata, it will take some interesting experimentation to find out.

Keep in mind that the batteries are usually liquid cooled, so you might want to do the swap at home :)

Junghole said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I am forseeing bolting a kit like this into a Miata. And then making the battery system modular so that you can have all the range you need, and then when you go to autocross, you remove all but maybe one battery that's good for that 60 second run. Then you strap all your other batteries back in and head home.

There's actually a guy trying to make something like that. It's a neat idea, but modular battery ideas like that have problems getting adequate cooling for fast DC charging or performance.

What about the brake system? On these conversions, do you regenerative braking and if so that would seem to require the use of brake by wire? Or do conversions just skip doing regenerative braking?

Teslas don't do brake by wire as far as I know, but they'll have modern ABS systems so they'll just use that for proportioning at the limit. Not so easy with a retrofit...

Keith Tanner said:

Solid axle mounted motors are going to be the game changer for old cars. Build one in the format of a Ford 9 inch and watch the interesting old cars get rejuvenated. I'd happily electrify one of the '66 Cadillacs. It would suit their design intent.

I can haz De Dion?

I'm also in the "cautiously optimistic" camp.  The motor is the easy part.  It's everything needed to make the motor turn where an EV conversion gets complicated.  Especially if you want the EV to have some moderate amount of range.  Then there are other systems powered by the ICE to make it a practical car to use - like HVAC.  These are not insurmountable issues, but at this time there are not really any plug-and-play solutions. 

Part of me is tempted to convert my TDI wagon to an EV.  Mostly because it would make the TDI-dorks' heads explode. 

In reply to paddygarcia :

You can do that today! It's basically like building an IRS from the power delivery standpoint.

For HVAC, thanks to mass-produced EVs we now have high voltage AC compressors (like this one on eBay). The rest of the system would be the same as an ICE. Heated seats are easy enough, and resistive heating isn't difficult to implement in place of a heater core (maybe using something like this). The fact that there are OEs making these things and that they're showing up in junkyards makes it a lot easier than it would have been a decade ago.

dculberson (Forum Supporter) said:

Mount the motor where the transmission is on my 1970 Ford F-250. Mount the batteries where the side saddle fuel tanks are now. Clean up the engine compartment and have a nice frunk. The e-motor weighs about the same as the toploader transmission currently in the F250. I could probably put together a battery pack yielding reasonable range the doesn't outweigh the all iron 360 that's in there now. HP and torque would be virtually unchanged. (215hp / 327tq originally) except the old ratings are gross so I bet the truck would be faster and more capable. Hmm.

Or, go whole hog and mount one directly on each differential?

My 95 F150 would make a sweet proto-Lightning with two of those motors. 

Keith Tanner said:

I am looking forward to seeing someone stuff one of these new generation of motors into a Miata rear subframe.

Although the small battery pack idea does have a flaw - a battery cell can only deliver power at a certain rate. Think of it as having its own little fuel pump, and it can only deliver fuel so fast. If you want more power, you need more cells. That's why you see better performance numbers from EVs with long range, because they have a lot of cells. 

So our "one small battery" Miata is going to be down on power compared to one carrying the full pack. Is it enough to overcome the lower mass? Maybe in a car where the batteries are a very significant percentage of the total mass, like a Lotus Seven type. In the case of a Miata, it will take some interesting experimentation to find out.

Keep in mind that the batteries are usually liquid cooled, so you might want to do the swap at home :)

This enables your own personal moon shot. You can find where the curves for weight speed and fuel delivery allow the greatest outcome.

That’s actually very cool. A complete bolt in / plug and play package for the Novice Electrician interests me for my MGB.

But (and it’s large BUT) the cost are way over the top.

Motor Swap Comparison

Electric Crate Motor - 4K

Battery Assembly - 16K (Factoring Massive Mass Production Discount from what TriGun quoted).

Traction Invertor, Control System 2K (Total Wild Guess)

22K or $22,000 US Dollars for our metric friends.

2.2 Ecotec L61 Core – $100

Rebuilt Head and Rebuild Kit w/ Internals & T Chain - $1000

Stand Alone Harness $1000

T5 WC - $350

Stuff I forgot about… - $2500 (Educated Guess)

5K or $5,000 US Dollars

So in my case the Electric VS Gas Motor Swap is 4 times as expensive.

Sure I’m only doing a low budget modernization swap, I’m getting a 50% HP increase, and I want this to be my 100% dependable daily. But I could go full turnkey LE5 Turbo for another $3500 and still be less than half of electric…

The future might be electric but not yet.

If you're looking for a legitimate comparison in prices, you should either use new crate parts for the ICE or an old Leaf with a damaged battery pack for the EV. This is not a valid  comparison as-is. I have no doubt the EV will still come up at a higher cost for a given power level, but if you're going to do math you should try to make it legit.

Also, I'm impressed you can rebuild an engine for $1000 once everything is accounted for :)

The inverter is the ECU, essentially. It is what interprets all the sensor and control input and determines how much juice to send from the battery pack to the motor. And, it turns stuff upside-down.

It's my plan if I can't get the Japanese Hemi to fit.........

Keith Tanner said:

If you're looking for a legitimate comparison in prices, you should either use new crate parts for the ICE or an old Leaf with a damaged battery pack for the EV. This is not a valid  comparison as-is. I have no doubt the EV will still come up at a higher cost for a given power level, but if you're going to do math you should try to make it legit.

Also, I'm impressed you can rebuild an engine for $1000 once everything is accounted for :)

You mean compare it like when I said get a new Turnkey Crate Motor? Or do you mean build for $1000 when I said add $2500 for what I forgot?

Don't be impressed, 1k in parts probably high for that motor. Pistons $80, Timing Chain Kit $100, Gaskets $60. Rebuild head was only $400 shipped. Etc...

New Parts or Old Parts. Until electric cars become commonplace they will be expensive, like every consumer product before it.

Keith Tanner said:

In reply to paddygarcia :

You can do that today! It's basically like building an IRS.

I've always admired the Ranger EV engineers for having the guts to put an aluminum and composite de Dion into a truck.

Great point about HVAC. The Passat TDI I had came with an electric heater to augment the slow warmup of coolant, and it could warm up that boat quickly, probably do fine in a big old car.

Taking more notes for retirement projects...

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I didn't say EV HVAC wasn't an insurmountable problem, just that there isn't a plug-and-play solution right now - compared to say the universal hot-rod HVAC components that can be adapted to work in almost anything.

I have little desire to go digging through junk yards for parts of questionable service history. Can it be cheaper? Sure. It also takes time. Time I don't have. I'm fine with paying more for solutions to problems.  I've bought one parts car in my life and it was a huge berking mistake.

Keith Tanner said:

Teslas don't do brake by wire as far as I know, but they'll have modern ABS systems so they'll just use that for proportioning at the limit. Not so easy with a retrofit...

Apparently they don't use brake by wire. I just assumed they did but according to something I read the brake booster balances the regenerative braking and normal braking.

Until we see if Ford offers controllers, etc, it's premature for me. And battery form factor is a biggie. They are heavy so you want them low and centered between the axles.

Irregardless, it's going to be a WAY more expensive project until such time as wrecking yards are littered with e-carcasses and e-gearheads have deciphered all of the parts that can be up-cycled into projects.

I'm looking forward to this.

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

I would argue that an electric AC compressor is literally plug and play :) No need to mess with belts or mounting and far more flexibility in packaging. If you want a new one, I'm sure the parts department is open.
I know there are all-in-one heater boxes as well, one just showed up in the electric car conversion group this morning.  So while there may not be as many options as for a small block chebby on initial glance, I think it's a workable situation at the moment. 

The only reason I am happy about this is it will (eventually when it costs less) save more fuel for the ICEs that matter.

dculberson (Forum Supporter) said:

Mount the motor where the transmission is on my 1970 Ford F-250. Mount the batteries where the side saddle fuel tanks are now. Clean up the engine compartment and have a nice frunk. The e-motor weighs about the same as the toploader transmission currently in the F250. I could probably put together a battery pack yielding reasonable range the doesn't outweigh the all iron 360 that's in there now. HP and torque would be virtually unchanged. (215hp / 327tq originally) except the old ratings are gross so I bet the truck would be faster and more capable. Hmm.

Or, go whole hog and mount one directly on each differential?

My mind read this and then went to: Hay . . . let's take two of them and make a cradle for them to mount them back to back so you have one motor powering each back wheel.  Not sure what the suspension solution would be but it sure would be fast.  

I've never thought to ask this before, but is it possible to apply EV credits to EV conversions when purchasing the power unit (and perhaps other parts) from a full manufacturer?  These crate motors would be coming from the same production line as the motors used in production model cars, right?  Tesla's been fighting against anyone using their parts, and I'm not sure that there are any major manufacturers with crate electric units on the market?

In an EV, the batteries are both the fuel container and power-plant. The motor is just part of the drivetrain. It's like a transmission or a differential, not much good without fuel, power-plant, and ecu.     
 

The costs and system integration challenges make more sense to me in this way.  
 

In reply to jb229 :

GM offers a crate motor although I'm not sure any have made it into external hands - especially not right now since they use Bolt batteries. They were only releasing it to shops that were trained. Nobody wants to see a car fail in a dramatic way after the conversion, so it's not a free for all yet. 

None of the other OEs other than GM and Ford offer swap-friendly crate ICE engines, so it's not surprising that we don't see EV options from them as well. 

OEMs.. PLEASE package this tech into a 'complete,' turn-key/modular kit.. there is a tremendous pent-up demand.. this coming from a guy that used to swap a V8 into everything, cause, you know, V8!

Old tech has it's place, and I love it too, but I'm super optimistic and excited for the emerging EV conversion kits to become affordable AND accessible for the hobbyist/DIY auto enthusiast.  To cobble it together effectively is still just beyond my skillset.. Package it up!  Plug and play  

I don't default to V8 swaps anymore, and I suspect we're on the brink of not defaulting to ICE swaps as well..  Bring it!!! 

--ccrunner

93EXCivic said:

Keith Tanner said:

Teslas don't do brake by wire as far as I know, but they'll have modern ABS systems so they'll just use that for proportioning at the limit. Not so easy with a retrofit...

Apparently they don't use brake by wire. I just assumed they did but according to something I read the brake booster balances the regenerative braking and normal braking.

They use electric boosters which can command full braking of the hydraulic system if necessary, as well as adjust boost on the fly.   They'll function standalone with a couple of power pins connected.  Also, they're much more compact than vacuum boosters to the point where I'm eyeing one for the S2000 in an attempt to fit a large supercharger on that side of the engine bay...

jb229 said:

I've never thought to ask this before, but is it possible to apply EV credits to EV conversions when purchasing the power unit (and perhaps other parts) from a full manufacturer?  These crate motors would be coming from the same production line as the motors used in production model cars, right?  Tesla's been fighting against anyone using their parts, and I'm not sure that there are any major manufacturers with crate electric units on the market?

I think it's on a case-by-case basis, and depends on the state.  For example, Colorado offers vehicle conversion credits, but it requires inspection of the finished product before it's assessed (c.a. 2019, anyway)

In reply to sobe_death :

Their boosters are very cool, but balance has to come into it as well, especially on the RWD cars. Easy enough with a modern ABS system. Even Miatas have used pure ABS for proportioning for (wow) 20 years.

I'm pretty sure the 1990 XJ in my driveway had an electric booster. Not a good one, which it why it was removed by a PO :)

In reply to David S. Wallens :

I'm going to watch this closely- if they sell it with a controller for a decent price and batteries aren't too terrible to source, it could be a perfect powerplant for my DMC-12...

In reply to Ashyukun (Robert) :

There is constant work on cold fusion systems, unfortunately they’ve been 20 years away for the last 30 years.

Rons said:

In reply to Ashyukun (Robert) :

There is constant work on cold fusion systems, unfortunately they’ve been 20 years away for the last 30 years.

True- but all that would do would be provide the electricity, I'd still need something like this to actually move the car. :p

In reply to Ashyukun (Robert) :

FYI, there was an electric DMC-12 parked in the lot outside the convention center at SEMA 2019. I think it had Leaf powertrain bits.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

There have been electric DMC-12s around for a while- back when I first got mine going about a decade ago there was one using some of the old motors that have been used for homebrew electric conversions for a while and a berk-ton of standard auto batteries in the front. 7-8 years ago DMC themselves were promoting an electric conversion model they were (ostensibly- none of their E36 M3 like this ever actually makes it to market...) 'planning' on selling for like $100k. 

I'll be wholly unsurprised if a number of us end up converting ours to electric going forward- it's always been a 'futuristic' car so having it be electric makes sense. And pretty much all of the potential drawbacks of electric- especially the range problem- cease to be a problem when it's a fun/exotic car that is only ever really driven around town.

In reply to Ashyukun (Robert) :

I think I remember those; they were easily $80K a pop but maxed out at 60-80 miles of range at the time, and were using Leaf cells because they didn't 'need' liquid cooling. Their other issue was they kinda Osbourne'd themselves; battery tech has advanced massively and GM's Ultimum tech might be a perfect use for their conversions, because you just have such a small area to install the batteries. If they will do it, it'll only be in the next few years when you have a decent spread of techs to try out.

In reply to Ashyukun (Robert) :

And pretty much all of the potential drawbacks of electric- especially the range problem- cease to be a problem when it's a fun/exotic car that is only ever really driven around town.

Now, this raises an interesting question, at least to me. On rarely used electric vehicles, how will that affect battery life and longevity?

Think 10-20 years down the road at mecum, a 1,000 mile 2019 Rimac comes up on the block. How will storage have affected the life? Would they take a charge? Would they have started to leak like alkaline batteries do? What would range from full drop like?

In the same vein, what would long term storage be like? Do you totally drain the batteries, leave it half charge, keep it on a tender the whole time? Somehow remove all the batteries and store them separately?

I've never stored a vehicle that long or had any interest in restoring a barn find,  on assumptions all plastics and rubber will need replaced from lack of use and maintenance. How would the electric motors be after sitting unused for years, decades?

I just hadn't thought of that aspect of the electric vehicles before.

Tesla says to leave it plugged in. That gives the car the ability to manage the battery pack, and it has a lot of tools at its disposal. They're a lot more sophisticated than your phone or laptop.

A car that's been left abandoned for years with a discharged pack? I'd expect a new battery or significant rehabilitation would be required. Kinda like how a gas system will be full of rust and/or lacquer. 

In reply to RevRico :

As Kieth said, you'd let the onboard computer do the work of maintenance of the pack which involves targeted specific use and likely self-draining intentionally for long-term storage. If for whatever reason you didn't have that- which would only be seen with something custom designed, like for an Ebike- draining to a degree between 65% to 30% steadily and keeping it stored at a consistent temp is key.

To rehab packs that weren't stored properly involves monitoring internal resistance as you very steadily push power into it. My 18650 battery charger/tester unit will start those cells as low as 50mah and increase it as long as the internal resistance and temperature don't increase beyond set points.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

The ideal situation would likely be to only install the batteries where the fuel tank currently is as it's pretty low to the ground and the car is already balanced for the weight of the fuel to be there- but that isn't a huge amount of space either, and it's an odd shape (essentially an elongated triangle). There's a bit more space that could likely be had if you took advantage of the original battery bay behind the passenger seat and the storage compartment on the opposite side behind the driver (mine currently has a small custom sub enclosure there). But honestly, I'd probably only need 60-80 miles of range for 90% of how I tended to drive the car when it was running well- and if there were charging stations along the way I could take it further out.

DMC-Houston comes up with something 'new' that they're planning on selling every two years or so to drum up publicity and attention. That I can remember, they've 'built' (quotes because I know in a few cases they largely borrowed hardware from other people) a supercharged DMC-12, the electric one, then they were supposed to be taking advantage of a law to let them built and title 'new' DMC-12s from new old-stock parts, then they were supposed to be making ones that were made from new old-stock parts except they'd have a modern engine so it could pass emissions. About the only thing I've seen them actually follow through on is their 'new build' cars- where they take a wrecked car and keep just enough of the original (usually body/frame) and replace everything else with new-old-stock so it's essentially a 'new' car with the VIN of an original-production DMC-12. Or in other words- it didn't really matter to them that the car would be obsolete almost immediately, it was only made to drum up media attention.