In clouds of black diesel smoke, some controversy | When enthusiasts don’t play well with locals

Steven Cole
By Steven Cole Smith
Jul 17, 2021 | diesel, trucks

Photography Credit: Krookid Photography

We’re inside the oval at Daytona International Speedway, about to leave in our 702-horsepower Dodge Ram 1500 TRX—which would have normally been revered elsewhere but was roundly ignored inside the walls of the world’s largest truck show—when a lady in a golf cart motions for us to roll down the window.

You’ll have to go up to that building and make a right to get out,” she says. “The normal route to the tunnel is where we had the burnout competition, and it’s sort of—messed up right now.”

Ech. Yes. That’s what happens, we suppose, when you have a couple dozen 1000-horsepower diesel pickups laying down as much rubber as they possibly can.

Photography Credits: Krookid Photography

It’s a blistering hot Saturday afternoon in Florida, where the only shade is man-made, often beneath a truck so lifted you can’t imagine how the driver gets in and out.

(Revelation: They’re call AMP steps, named after the most common manufacturer, AMP Research. They're bolted in beneath the door, out of sight. They're wired to the OBD-II system, so when you press a button at the bottom of the door, it opens, and the OBD tells the steps to descend. Close the door, and they fold back up. But on a lot of these trucks, it’s still a long way up to the AMP step. And yes, there are trucks here with rope ladders.)

Photography Credits: Krookid Photography

Daytona Truck Meet's founder and director of marketing, Jordan Muhlbauer, 31, says the event started with his simple Facebook page on cool trucks that rocketed to 10,000 likes. Then came an informal meetup on the beach, “where we were promptly told to disperse,” he says. They ended up in a nearby Burlington Coat Factory parking lot.

Then came a formal show that outgrew a couple of venues, then finally the one venue you can’t outgrow: Daytona International Speedway. Park outside and walk in, or register your truck and drive in. Over three days this June, including a Sunday that was washed out, Muhlbauer hosted about 45,000 people and 7000 registered trucks from 40 states. That’s just inside; thousands more were parked outside.

There were multiple competitions, including the obligatory bikini contest and a best-of-show judging—which was won by a kid named Cooper and his new black, mega-lifted Ford F-250 Super Duty diesel with full four-wheel steer, “just like a monster truck, which it basically was,” Muhlbauer says.

Photography Credits: Krookid Photography

Muhlbauer, also the emcee, mentioned during the trophy presentation that Cooper looked a little young to own a truck that basically cost as much as a Ferrari Portofino. “I’m 15,” Cooper said. “I just got my learner’s permit.”

To say the event was an economic success is an understatement, Muhlbauer says. “All of our apparel, anything with a logo on it, was gone by noon Saturday. Vendors were running out of gear. All the vendors were super happy and are begging to throw money at us for next year.”

It may have been hectic inside the Speedway, but outside the track it was apparently three days of pickup chaos. Residents and some city officials are questioning whether to allow the Truck Meet to continue.

From a story in the Daytona Beach News Journal: “As the smoke cleared—literally in some cases—from the traffic, noise and late-night mayhem of this past weekend’s Daytona Truck Meet, beachside residents on Monday were still recovering from an ordeal that some likened to being in a war zone.

“People are on edge this morning and they have been throughout this whole weekend,” said Weegie Kuendig, a longtime resident of the city’s historic Seabreeze neighborhood. “Really, my house vibrated the entire weekend, literally, until 4 and 5 o’clock in the morning. There’s something about that rumble that goes right through you,” she said. “Everybody was so tired; people couldn’t sleep.”

“My office parking lot was trashed,” City Commissioner Aaron Delgado, an attorney, told the newspaper. “There were tampons, condoms, beer bottles. It was gross. We filled up a couple garbage cans of trash.”

Area police departments wrote 1600 tickets and made 65 arrests, some of them felonies, which is actually down from the first year the Truck Meet was held at the Speedway, 2018, when 2150 tickets were issued.

Muhlbauer acknowledges that some of the attendees weren’t treating the public with respect, laying part of the blame on younger drivers, who often own “squats,” trucks that are raised in the front and squatting on their tires in the back. There were only a handful of squats in the infield, but they abounded on the streets of Daytona Beach. Some drivers have a hard enough time seeing over a truck hood, but with the nose of a squatter pointed at the sky, it creates a dangerous situation, Muhlbauer says.

Photography Credits: Steven Cole Smith

He plans on likely banning squatters from registering for his show next year—assuming there is one—but it won’t keep the squat owners from attending as fans.

Squats began in Central Florida, Muhlbauer says, with “kids who go deer dogging in the woods”—using dogs to chase down deer. “They get way back in the swamp and they need all the traction they can get, so they raise the front, lower the rear. The concept moved from the woods onto the road and to the custom truck world.”

In other words, Florida man.

It’s a younger crowd, more immature,” Muhlbauer says. “They’re kind of a thorn in the side of the industry. They are often the ones doing burnouts on the street.”

But touring Daytona Beach after the Saturday show, it wasn’t just squatters that were doing burnouts, sounding air horns, blasting loud music and open exhausts, and blinding other motorists with hundred-LED bolt-on lights. How Muhlbauer is expected to control this is unclear, but it could cost him the 2022 Daytona Truck Meet, especially if the Speedway buckles to the pressure and refuses to rent him the track again.

We bring a ton of tourism dollars to the city,” Muhlbauer says. If someone else organized it, a truck event could be entirely out of control. As it is, he gives the truckers an enclosed environment to show off. “Otherwise, it could be worse.”

Photography Credits: Krookid Photography

At the city council meeting several days later, Daytona Police Chief Jakari Young, who spent $170,000 on police overtime that weekend, said he wasn’t interested in potential changes. “I just want it gone. I think the residents want it gone. It just does not work.”

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Countingcrowbars
Countingcrowbars UltraDork
7/16/21 11:11 a.m.

I'm gonna get the coal rolling here and say not my cup of tea, nor my table, nor my house. 

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
7/16/21 11:11 a.m.

Well, this thread should be interesting.

I'm going to start out by saying that auto/motorsports enthusiasts tend to gather in tribes, and they aren't all the same.  To go further, one particular type of enthusiast is under no obligation at all to support another type.  I often see people posting this idea that "it's a slippery slope, if we let them regulate or control X then the terrorists win and we all lose."  Nonsense.

When a particular motorsports culture exists simply for the purpose of pissing people off to make some kind of statement, it actually harms all the other motorsports cultures.  This one is an offshoot of a larger cultural phenomenon that I won't go into here.  The vast majority of non-enthusiasts WILL demand consequences that will spill over onto all sorts of other innocent enthusiasts.  So the yokels blasting clouds of diesel smoke and trashing public property at 4am are, in a very direct way, harming my ability to go out and work on my lap times.

TL;DR don't be a dick.  Especially in groups of 50,000 other dicks.  I feel bad for people that live in Daytona, for years it's been the de facto spot for large groups of people to gather and act like idiots.

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe PowerDork
7/16/21 11:46 a.m.

If someone else organized it, a truck event could be entirely out of control. As it is, he gives the truckers an enclosed environment to show off. “Otherwise, it could be worse.”

yeah not the best way to show that you are a benefit to the community. Look how much worse it could be. Add in the tickets issued and this is a doomed event in the long run. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/16/21 11:52 a.m.

The lead photo of the truck doing burnouts - that's just a normal burnout contest with the addition of visible particulates in the exhaust. Can't get upset about that. If you celebrate a Miata with a Hellcat motor shredding tires inside a concrete box, you should celebrate a diesel truck doing the same.

But having the event spill into the streets and the attendees pissing off the locals, that's a problem. The fact that it's trucks isn't really a factor, it could be Harleys or sportbikes or Civics or old-school hot rods - all of whom have had this problem at one time or another. It's the fact that the people attending the event are basically peeing in the pool, that's going to get the event canceled. Just like spring break in Panama City, really. From what I understand, it basically got shut down because nobody could behave themselves.*

 

 

* I think it was Panama City, I could have the wrong town. One of the big beach destinations locked down Spring Break about 3 years ago IIRC.

RevRico
RevRico UltimaDork
7/16/21 11:53 a.m.

Everything else aside, these are pretty nice

Countingcrowbars
Countingcrowbars UltraDork
7/16/21 11:57 a.m.

In reply to RevRico :

I'm curious how that UTVSUVSVU gets going under its own power. 

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/16/21 12:04 p.m.

There are motorsports events where bad behavior in the race track is well known, right?  Like the infield of Watins Glenn.  

Had those groups of people spilled over the same event into the general public, I would bet that they would have gotten shut down, too.

It's kind of amusing that they claim to bring in all kinds of tourist money- when you make a mess that also costs money to clean up, everything you bring as tourists is very much negated cost wise.

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE Dork
7/16/21 12:05 p.m.

I just can't get over this statement:

“My office parking lot was trashed,” City Commissioner Aaron Delgado, an attorney, told the newspaper. “There were tampons, condoms, beer bottles. It was gross. We filled up a couple garbage cans of trash.”

This is no longer just a "dicks being dicks" problem, that's an actual public safety hazard. Like, good luck if you wanna do it next year and they show up with time stamped photos of used condoms they had to pick out with PPE on.

Tom1200
Tom1200 SuperDork
7/16/21 12:10 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

Exactly; Total Cost of Ownership.

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
7/16/21 12:36 p.m.

"Enthusiasts" are not causing the problems. Azzholes and douche bags are.

Nicole Suddard
Nicole Suddard GRM+ Memberand Marketing Coordinator
7/16/21 12:50 p.m.

In reply to wearymicrobe :

Yeah, as someone who lives in this area, that quote reads more like a threat. "Go ahead, shut us down, we'll just keep coming back" - it's exactly what they did after the county-run convention center told them they couldn't have the event there anymore a few years ago. 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
7/16/21 1:03 p.m.

Ah! The wonderful stupidity of youth. 
 Now get off my lawn.  
Why I remember how respectful of my elders when I was a kid. I helped little old ladies cross the street and everything. Said Sir and Ma'am.  Wore screw cut I got cut every Saturday. 
Or did I? 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/16/21 1:13 p.m.

There's a difference between a few rebellious individuals and those individuals descending on a town en masse. That's the problem, the gathering.

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
7/16/21 1:30 p.m.

There are only two things I can't stand in this world: People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Coal Rollers.

 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
7/16/21 1:33 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

The lead photo of the truck doing burnouts - that's just a normal burnout contest with the addition of visible particulates in the exhaust. Can't get upset about that. If you celebrate a Miata with a Hellcat motor shredding tires inside a concrete box, you should celebrate a diesel truck doing the same.

I don't support that either.  Burnout contests are dumb, period.

aw614
aw614 Reader
7/16/21 1:40 p.m.

But touring Daytona Beach after the Saturday show, it wasn’t just squatters that were doing burnouts, sounding air horns, blasting loud music and open exhausts, and blinding other motorists with hundred-LED bolt-on lights. How Muhlbauer is expected to control this is unclear, but it could cost him the 2022 Daytona Truck Meet, especially if the Speedway buckles to the pressure and refuses to rent him the track again.

“We bring a ton of tourism dollars to the city,” Muhlbauer says. If someone else organized it, a truck event could be entirely out of control. As it is, he gives the truckers an enclosed environment to show off. “Otherwise, it could be worse.”

What he said there sounds a lot like what I hear about all the kids going to Ocean City, MD at the event located where H2oi used to be held nearby. 

Guess Daytona is basically the Ocean City of the south....

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/16/21 1:47 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
Keith Tanner said:

The lead photo of the truck doing burnouts - that's just a normal burnout contest with the addition of visible particulates in the exhaust. Can't get upset about that. If you celebrate a Miata with a Hellcat motor shredding tires inside a concrete box, you should celebrate a diesel truck doing the same.

I don't support that either.  Burnout contests are dumb, period.

I've never understood them either. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/16/21 1:56 p.m.
z31maniac said:
ProDarwin said:
Keith Tanner said:

The lead photo of the truck doing burnouts - that's just a normal burnout contest with the addition of visible particulates in the exhaust. Can't get upset about that. If you celebrate a Miata with a Hellcat motor shredding tires inside a concrete box, you should celebrate a diesel truck doing the same.

I don't support that either.  Burnout contests are dumb, period.

I've never understood them either. 

Note that I did say "if" :) Not my cup of tea, but I will acknowledge that a lot of enthusiasts like them, and they do take place under controlled conditions to minimize the effects on the locals.

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/16/21 2:04 p.m.

Stupid will always be stupid. Trying to fix stupid is one of the most difficult things you can try to do. 

stuart in mn
stuart in mn MegaDork
7/16/21 2:06 p.m.
frenchyd said:

Ah! The wonderful stupidity of youth. 
 Now get off my lawn.  
Why I remember how respectful of my elders when I was a kid. I helped little old ladies cross the street and everything. Said Sir and Ma'am.  Wore screw cut I got cut every Saturday. 
Or did I? 

I'll bet whatever you were doing as a kid wasn't as nearly as much of a middle finger to society as what's going on today...

As an example, a week or so ago some idiots blocked off an intersection in my neighborhood (one of the busiest intersections in Minneapolis), while a guy did smokey burnouts and donuts,  while simultaneously shooting off a couple dozen rounds in the air with his pistol.  That's a far cry from hooning around on a deserted road out in the country somewhere.

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and MegaDork
7/16/21 2:14 p.m.

Myrtle Beach ran into the same problem with the bike weeks. The residents didn't like it, the businesses did. Officially they shut it down but the bars still do events, as do the restaurants and hotels. You can close down the event, but stopping the people from showing up is a little more difficult. It's even more difficult when the neighboring towns like North Myrtle and Murrells Inlet still embrace it and the influx of cash it brings to the area. 

Myrtle Beach ended up being the laughing stock of the area. 

02Pilot
02Pilot UltraDork
7/16/21 2:22 p.m.

If they really want to end the problem, the municipality has a year to work with their lawyers to figure out legislation that will A) impose strict limits on noise and traffic behavior during times when vehicular events are taking place, and B) allow them to impound the vehicles of drivers who violate said limits. Owners can only get their vehicles back after the cases are adjudicated and the (certainly exorbitant) fines are paid. I'm not saying I condone such an approach, as it is rife with potential for exploitation and generally rather Draconian, but it will squash the problem.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
7/16/21 2:31 p.m.

Absolutely . To our eyes and standards it is.  But the population has more than doubled. Almost tripled since I was born.   
Life has less value nowdays.   Notoriety  seems to be of greater value than decency. Which is what is driving a lot of America's youth. 

Preparenthood. Or even preinvolvement with the fairer sex amplifies that base nature. 
    Finally. Less than 2% of. Americans have military experiance. Of that 2% only 5% are ever involved in combat. 
We boomers came from parents who's early life was deeply involved in military. Parents of even Uber Rich were drafted or volunteered. Sharing risks and life threatening experiences.  Then we were exposed to our own share of military risks with the draft. Some Uber rich parents lost their child.  So commonly shared values were still the norm. 
Unlike today. With its volunteer military where  those without a path to success and the middle  class.  
        Many Millenials trying to achieve success through education  have found instead of an upwards path the debt used to acquire that degree prevents them from achieving it.  The along come the Great Recession, the pandemic and they don't have a path upwards. 
 

 

Jerry
Jerry PowerDork
7/16/21 2:44 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Huh?

lemachin
lemachin New Reader
7/16/21 2:47 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

The fact that it's trucks isn't really a factor, it could be Harleys or sportbikes or Civics or old-school hot rods - all of whom have had this problem at one time or another

I think the trucks are a factor, though, since their huge size makes them inherently more dangerous to other road users. This is fine if you need the vehicle's capability, respect its size/impact, and drive accordingly. But then you factor in that many of these modifications make them more dangerous (increased ride height/reduced forward visibility) or deliberately more obnoxious (rolling coal) ...I gotta agree with ShinnyGroove on this one, antagonism/provocation seems to be baked into this scene. 

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
7/16/21 2:51 p.m.
frenchyd said:

Absolutely . To our eyes and standards it is.  But the population has more than doubled. Almost tripled since I was born.   
Life has less value nowdays.   Notoriety  seems to be of greater value than decency. Which is what is driving a lot of America's youth. 

Preparenthood. Or even preinvolvement with the fairer sex amplifies that base nature. 
    Finally. Less than 2% of. Americans have military experiance. Of that 2% only 5% are ever involved in combat. 
We boomers came from parents who's early life was deeply involved in military. Parents of even Uber Rich were drafted or volunteered. Sharing risks and life threatening experiences.  Then we were exposed to our own share of military risks with the draft. Some Uber rich parents lost their child.  So commonly shared values were still the norm. 
Unlike today. With its volunteer military where  those without a path to success and the middle  class.  
        Many Millenials trying to achieve success through education  have found instead of an upwards path the debt used to acquire that degree prevents them from achieving it.  The along come the Great Recession, the pandemic and they don't have a path upwards. 
 

 

This is the popular line of thought, and I think there's a lot of truth to it.  The problem is that it would be a lot easier to swallow if these knuckleheads weren't showing up in trucks that they've spent $100k on, making them useless for every real truck job in the process.

aw614
aw614 Reader
7/16/21 2:54 p.m.
stuart in mn said:
frenchyd said:

Ah! The wonderful stupidity of youth. 
 Now get off my lawn.  
Why I remember how respectful of my elders when I was a kid. I helped little old ladies cross the street and everything. Said Sir and Ma'am.  Wore screw cut I got cut every Saturday. 
Or did I? 

I'll bet whatever you were doing as a kid wasn't as nearly as much of a middle finger to society as what's going on today...

As an example, a week or so ago some idiots blocked off an intersection in my neighborhood (one of the busiest intersections in Minneapolis), while a guy did smokey burnouts and donuts,  while simultaneously shooting off a couple dozen rounds in the air with his pistol.  That's a far cry from hooning around on a deserted road out in the country somewhere.

That sounds like the takeovers that started on the west coast that have been appearing a lot more lately. In the Tampa area they used to just do it at industrial warehouse lots or in shopping plazas, but lately they've been getting a lot more crazier by blocking off intersections. Luckily it is all happening late at night up til around 2am or so and not during rush hour or the middle of the day...

But this happened recently during July 4th, they decided to mess with a lady stuck in the middle of the intersection and she pulled a gun out on them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4Aexh-3kY

Strangely enough because of all the attention being turned to the takeovers, the old Honda street racing guys are back at their old games again racing late at night for a few hours. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/16/21 2:59 p.m.
lemachin said:
Keith Tanner said:

The fact that it's trucks isn't really a factor, it could be Harleys or sportbikes or Civics or old-school hot rods - all of whom have had this problem at one time or another

I think the trucks are a factor, though, since their huge size makes them inherently more dangerous to other road users. This is fine if you need the vehicle's capability, respect its size/impact, and drive accordingly. But then you factor in that many of these modifications make them more dangerous (increased ride height/reduced forward visibility) or deliberately more obnoxious (rolling coal) ...I gotta agree with ShinnyGroove on this one, antagonism/provocation seems to be baked into this scene. 

Trucks are big and heavy, but sportbikes can do 200 mph and accelerate like crazy. So I'd call it a different type of danger.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
7/16/21 3:00 p.m.

Its the young punk thing to do these days.  get a crowd together, even if its surrounding an otherwise legitimate show, and basically give authority the middle finger and have a party.

 

Even near DC, there was a group that descended on a otherwise innocent parking lot gathering and basically overpowered it to a burnout contest with a few hundred people street racing. When the cops came to shut it down, it went total E36 M3show with a few hundred cars in a group basically street racing up the road.  I live off the road and I dont hesitate to say that most run groups on a SCCA weekend at Summit Point are quieter...

 

Now the guys that do parking lot gatherings are a bit gunshy about being crowdbombed by these jackholes. 

BA5
BA5 GRM+ Memberand Reader
7/16/21 3:31 p.m.
stuart in mn said:

I'll bet whatever you were doing as a kid wasn't as nearly as much of a middle finger to society as what's going on today...

As an example, a week or so ago some idiots blocked off an intersection in my neighborhood (one of the busiest intersections in Minneapolis), while a guy did smokey burnouts and donuts,  while simultaneously shooting off a couple dozen rounds in the air with his pistol.  That's a far cry from hooning around on a deserted road out in the country somewhere.

As a middle aged guy: what I did was way worse than what most kids do today.  

Sure, you can pick and choose some stuff, but most kids today are lame and only care about social justice 'n stuff.  I blame 'Glee'.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/16/21 3:52 p.m.
frenchyd said:

Absolutely . To our eyes and standards it is.  But the population has more than doubled. Almost tripled since I was born.   
Life has less value nowdays.   Notoriety  seems to be of greater value than decency. Which is what is driving a lot of America's youth. 

Preparenthood. Or even preinvolvement with the fairer sex amplifies that base nature. 
    Finally. Less than 2% of. Americans have military experiance. Of that 2% only 5% are ever involved in combat. 
We boomers came from parents who's early life was deeply involved in military. Parents of even Uber Rich were drafted or volunteered. Sharing risks and life threatening experiences.  Then we were exposed to our own share of military risks with the draft. Some Uber rich parents lost their child.  So commonly shared values were still the norm. 
Unlike today. With its volunteer military where  those without a path to success and the middle  class.  
        Many Millenials trying to achieve success through education  have found instead of an upwards path the debt used to acquire that degree prevents them from achieving it.  The along come the Great Recession, the pandemic and they don't have a path upwards. 
 

 

In the infamous words of Lil' John, "Whhhhaaaatt?"

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/16/21 4:23 p.m.

I've been working across the street from the Speedway since 2013, and have seen many events over that time. The only time this happened was the recent truck week. 
 

They tore up the parking lot in front of my office doing burnouts. 

edit: found the pictures. as far as minor collateral damage, there's this.  We had a client complain that we shouldn't have allowed this. Said that we were unprofessional.
 


 

Don't think her actual name was Karen, but whatever it was, it's close enough. Not because I'm defending the idiots that had the burnout contest in front of the office, just the idea that we would be able to do anything about it.

it's been a few weeks, and the black marks are gone, but the holes in the pavement are still there.

Another aspect of reputational collateral damage, is the fact that International Speedway Corporation will not allow any of the autocross clubs to use their parking lots, because we might damage the pavement. Doing a burnout would get you thrown out of an autocross event.

 

 

stuart in mn
stuart in mn MegaDork
7/16/21 8:35 p.m.
aw614 said:

That sounds like the takeovers that started on the west coast that have been appearing a lot more lately. In the Tampa area they used to just do it at industrial warehouse lots or in shopping plazas, but lately they've been getting a lot more crazier by blocking off intersections. Luckily it is all happening late at night up til around 2am or so and not during rush hour or the middle of the day...

There's been more and more of that here as well - they've even been blocking off all lanes on the Interstate to do their 'exhibition driving'.  It's been mostly at night, but there have been some daylight episodes too. (and of course this is on top of all the other crazy stuff that's been going on in Minneapolis these days, so it's been turning into the Wild West...a number of young children have been shot and killed in drive by shootings, just today another 3 year old caught a bullet from somewhere and is in critical condition.)

Tom1200
Tom1200 SuperDork
7/16/21 8:37 p.m.

Sigh you just can't take some people anywhere.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/16/21 9:00 p.m.
The article said:

Squats began in Central Florida, Muhlbauer says, with “kids who go deer dogging in the woods”—using dogs to chase down deer. “They get way back in the swamp and they need all the traction they can get, so they raise the front, lower the rear. The concept moved from the woods onto the road and to the custom truck world.”

My fat hairy FloridaMan ass it did.  I know many folks that deer hunt that way and all that is is a good way to get stuck.

Edit: Also, every single word Muhlbauer says in this thing sounds self-serving.  I don't get it

OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
7/16/21 9:18 p.m.

The YouTube algorithm finds me a ton of channels full of by big dollar lifted truck dudes (with loads of followers) who take pride in pissing off neighbors who just want peace and quiet.  The commenters say "dude you need to blow your train horn at that old guy" and gets 1,200 likes.
 

It is a weirdly uncomfortable world to look upon - because I like a V8 with a lumpy cam as much as the next GRM dork... but the urge to say "get off my lawn" is strong. 

Shaun
Shaun Dork
7/16/21 9:20 p.m.

I found it interesting that many if not most of the mega wheeler showboats in the vid had broken or non op 4 wheel drive systems, open diffs on both axles, or both.  100k sunk into one wheel drive trucks that cant get out of a sand box but look all mega hella extra gnarly while blowing smoke and failing to go anywhere.  It reminds me a bit of the low rider and stance sub cultures in that it has specific very inside the culture criteria of what is 'cool'.   

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/16/21 9:27 p.m.

We are living Idiocracy.  
 

Remember the George Carlin joke about the average person and the lower half being even dumber?  I'm convinced today's people are significantly dumber than the average person of two or three decades ago.  
 

This is just more example of it.  The street blocking "car shows" happening in most major cities are proof of it.  
 

We are living in dangerous times because very few things in life are more dangerous than stupid people.  

Datsun310Guy
Datsun310Guy MegaDork
7/16/21 9:49 p.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm convinced today's people are significantly dumber than the average person of two or three decades ago. 

You don't say.

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
7/16/21 10:38 p.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

  I'm convinced today's people are significantly dumber than the average person of two or three decades ago

Two decades ago I was 19. We were pretty damn dumb. It wasn't much different, we were always doing things to see how close we could walk the line of getting arrested, sometimes you stumbled over that line.

I bet there's actually less dumb kid stunts per capita than the old days, but back then you had to see it in person, or hear about it from someone who did. Now it's all online for us old codgers to see, so it seems like its everywhere. Honestly I think the younger generation is tamer than we were.

350z247
350z247 Reader
7/17/21 10:01 a.m.

Stuff like this is absolutely going to ruin it for the rest of us. I'm just hoping the EPA will focus more on the diesels for a while before eventually turning their attention back to gas. My street cars all run high flow cats, but they have also all been modified in some way that the EPA would not like whether it be a tune, secondary cat deletes, catch can breathers, etc.

pirate
pirate HalfDork
7/17/21 12:31 p.m.

There is an event along the Gulf Coast of Mississippi that will celebrate its 25 th anniversary this year. They will have probably in excess of 8,500 entries this year. It is open to only cars 1989 and earlier and that year increases by one each year. When started the cut off was 1964. It was supposed to include classic cars, customs, hot rods and muscle cars. Each year the participants and people coming to watch increases with lawn chairs, canopies for several miles along the beach highway.  I've been to all but a couple and it's fun but the event has changed. People used to cruise there hot rods and old cars late into the evening/nights similar to what was done in the 50's and 60's. Sure there was the reving of engines and a few burnouts but by and large the police turned their head unless things got out of control or drinking was involved. 

Now during the days you see the old cars out and about cruising to the different venues or parked drawing large crowds. However, as evening approaches the old cars/hot rods are put away and by 7:00 pm a whole new crowd starts to appear. Of course there are exceptions. I have a couple cars I take for the week long event but park them before the craziness starts. The new crowd consists of late model muscle Mustangs, Camaros, Dodges, Ricers, Pickups of all persuasions ( lifted, squatted, coal rollers, etc. etc.) plus pretty much anything else you can raise hell with. Spectators encourage burn outs and get there will and I have personally seen a couple wheel stands. Lots of coal rolling. It's generally a lot wilder and careless then ever before with a good amount of drinking with arrests and cars/trucks towed away. What used to be police turning their heads has now evolved to police cars in the median of every block with lights flashing and no tolerance for burn outs if caught. 

I will say this is an extremely well run event. Now all venues close at 5:00 PM. The promoters can not control the actions of people who show up rather they are registered participates or not. I'm 75 like to have fun and go every year to this event for the whole week. Unfortunately everyone that is there gets lumped into together for bad behavior. The Chamber of Commerce loves this event for the money it brings in. The general public that live there hate it for the crowds and traffic it creates. Im sure the police (local, sheriff, state) dread the week it comes and long  hours of work. My fear is sooner or later there will be an accident/incident  into the crowds with people hurt or killed and  there will be cry's to end this event not because of the daytime organized activities but craziness that goes on at night from mostly non participants. 

 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/17/21 7:00 p.m.

In reply to gearheadmb :

I can actually easily prove today people are dumber than ever using simple logic. I choose not to do it because there will be a screech for my perma ban on the internet's and screaming for violating a safe space.  We have more people, and hence more stupid people than ever.  And I'm pretty sure the 100 IQ point shifts lower every passing year.  I'm sure there will be a reversal at some point, thank goodness. I'm just not sure I will live to see it.  

 

350z247
350z247 Reader
7/17/21 8:07 p.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Whether or not people are more intelligent or mature is debatable, but people are more educated today than every before. They have access to better schooling and of course free access to every piece of known information through the internet. 100 years ago not being able to read or write wasn't as uncommon as people might think, but it's unheard of today. It would seem the missing pieces are respect and accountability. 

Nitroracer (Forum Supporter)
Nitroracer (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
7/17/21 9:03 p.m.
aw614 said:

But touring Daytona Beach after the Saturday show, it wasn’t just squatters that were doing burnouts, sounding air horns, blasting loud music and open exhausts, and blinding other motorists with hundred-LED bolt-on lights. How Muhlbauer is expected to control this is unclear, but it could cost him the 2022 Daytona Truck Meet, especially if the Speedway buckles to the pressure and refuses to rent him the track again.

“We bring a ton of tourism dollars to the city,” Muhlbauer says. If someone else organized it, a truck event could be entirely out of control. As it is, he gives the truckers an enclosed environment to show off. “Otherwise, it could be worse.”

What he said there sounds a lot like what I hear about all the kids going to Ocean City, MD at the event located where H2oi used to be held nearby. 

Guess Daytona is basically the Ocean City of the south....

Swap out deleted diesel trucks for slammed, cambered cars and this sounds exactly like Ocean City during H20 weekends.  The part I find funny, is they have two other cruise weekends early and late in the season with fewer import vehicles but the same stupidity and they never seem to have the same issues with local police.

aw614
aw614 Reader
7/18/21 12:26 a.m.
Nitroracer (Forum Supporter) said:
aw614 said:

But touring Daytona Beach after the Saturday show, it wasn’t just squatters that were doing burnouts, sounding air horns, blasting loud music and open exhausts, and blinding other motorists with hundred-LED bolt-on lights. How Muhlbauer is expected to control this is unclear, but it could cost him the 2022 Daytona Truck Meet, especially if the Speedway buckles to the pressure and refuses to rent him the track again.

“We bring a ton of tourism dollars to the city,” Muhlbauer says. If someone else organized it, a truck event could be entirely out of control. As it is, he gives the truckers an enclosed environment to show off. “Otherwise, it could be worse.”

What he said there sounds a lot like what I hear about all the kids going to Ocean City, MD at the event located where H2oi used to be held nearby. 

Guess Daytona is basically the Ocean City of the south....

Swap out deleted diesel trucks for slammed, cambered cars and this sounds exactly like Ocean City during H20 weekends.  The part I find funny, is they have two other cruise weekends early and late in the season with fewer import vehicles but the same stupidity and they never seem to have the same issues with local police.

Oh yeah I always remembered reading that the cruise-in and the bike day events in Ocean City were sanctioned events. But the H2oi show that was never held in Ocean City, but nearby was not. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
7/18/21 1:10 a.m.
frenchyd said:

....Life has less value nowdays...... 

    ....Finally. Less than 2% of. Americans have military experiance. Of that 2% only 5% are ever involved in combat....

Totally disagree with the first point.  Farther back in history clearly not the case. Even compared to the more recent past (e.g. 50 years), there is a far lower tolerance for risk in general. Just look at F1!

Second point:  You do know where The Hells Angles originated from right?  
 

I don't disagree that time in the military could help a lot of people (if nothing else, keep them off the streets), but it clearly has little to no (positive) affect on many and combat can have a very negative effect on many more. 
 


 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/18/21 2:07 a.m.
frenchyd said:

Absolutely . To our eyes and standards it is.  But the population has more than doubled. Almost tripled since I was born.   
Life has less value nowdays.   Notoriety  seems to be of greater value than decency. Which is what is driving a lot of America's youth. 

Parents of even Uber Rich were drafted or volunteered. Sharing risks and life threatening experiences.  Then we were exposed to our own share of military risks with the draft.

LOL

The rich have forever been able to avoid sending their children to war.  It was definitely harder during WWII, but afterwards it was definitely easier, especially later wars like Vietnam.

Also, what the hell does being a veteran, especially a combat veteran, have to do with not being a jackass or an idiot?  Do you know what sort of standards were relaxed during the Surge? 


Hell, in general the military is staffed with a bunch of goobers.  Its the few people without their heads up their asses that make it run as well as it does.  The only thing the military does is pound situational awareness into you and give you enough training and rote memorization that you can't help but know your job on muscle memory.  Even that can be iffy. 
FFS I once saw a soldier salute an officer with his left hand because he was carrying a bag in his right; it was a shopping bag with some chips and a soda.

Your mileage may vary.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/18/21 8:33 a.m.
350z247 said:

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

100 years ago not being able to read or write wasn't as uncommon as people might think, but it's unheard of today.

It seems like this "should" be right.  However, if you start digging into reality of education today and what is going on in large cities in the poor areas, you'll find this isn't the case.  

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/18/21 9:54 a.m.
350z247 said:

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Whether or not people are more intelligent or mature is debatable, but people are more educated today than every before. They have access to better schooling and of course free access to every piece of known information through the internet. 100 years ago not being able to read or write wasn't as uncommon as people might think, but it's unheard of today. It would seem the missing pieces are respect and accountability. 

Not even close to every piece of known information - there are huge holes - and even free is debatable. But yes, it's easier than having to visit libraries. 

Bigger problem here is the ability to show off to the entire world and get rewarded for it, via that same mechanism. 

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
7/18/21 11:20 a.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
350z247 said:

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

100 years ago not being able to read or write wasn't as uncommon as people might think, but it's unheard of today.

It seems like this "should" be right.  However, if you start digging into reality of education today and what is going on in large cities in the poor areas, you'll find this isn't the case.  

Illiteracy rates in the US fell from 20% in 1870 to .06% in 1979 (latest, best data, I could find for the US). Broken out by race, illiteracy in whites fell from 11.5 to .04, and in Blacks and other minorities it fell from 79.9% to 1.6%. 

https://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp 

This doesn't mean that there aren't massive issues with the US education system, or that we're doing better compared to other OECD countries. It just means that the situation is terrible and improving, and has been for quite some time.

pirate
pirate HalfDork
7/18/21 12:08 p.m.

I enlisted in the U.S.M.C. in 1964. If there is one thing the Marine Corp instills in recruits it's discipline, forcibly if needed. Confidence to handle all situations is also instilled. Rather you choose to be disciplined after you get out is your choice but I can't help believe that in some ways you are affected for life. I know for me it has made me a better man and person. 

Be it right or be it wrong back then it was not uncommon for judges to give young men a choice of going to jail or enlisting in the military. I had a couple in my platoon that came in as real tough guys, trouble makers and no one was going to tell them what to do. They left completely different from boot camp. Have no idea how they ended up in life. 
 

Youth is always rebellious. People today may be better educated but that doesn't mean they are better people. A dose of discipline never hurt anyone but sadly a lot of young people never received it from their parents or anyone else. Many come to believe they can do anything they want without consequences. Unfortunately there are many out there who condone this and even encourage it. My opinion your mileage may vary.

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter)
vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
7/18/21 12:15 p.m.

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

C'est tout.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/18/21 12:52 p.m.

In reply to pirate :

On the flip side, "I fought for your freedom so I can do whatever I want" is not an unknown attitude. It has been directly expressed to me when I called out a kid for tearing up a National Park.

My only experience with the military on the inside is as a member of the Canadian Reserves as a musician, but that experience led me to believe that people coming out of the military are fundamentally no different than the people going in.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/18/21 3:12 p.m.

In reply to CrustyRedXpress :

Yikes 1979 was a long time ago.  Try this:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/us-literacy-rates-by-state

77% in CA.  Yep we've become dumber as a nation.  No surprise there if you've been paying attention.  You'll notice the most populated states with the largest cities have the most stupid people too.  It's not a coincidence.

Tom1200
Tom1200 SuperDork
7/18/21 4:35 p.m.

So human beings have no more or less intellectual capacity than they did 4000 years ago when they were carving out peoples hearts to appease the Gods.

I've worked with some extremely uneducated people who displayed a level of intellect and professionism that many of the PHDs I routinely work with now could learn from.

When you get mobs of people together they behave like mobs, as an organizer you need to be aware of it and plan accordingly. 

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
7/18/21 5:47 p.m.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Yeah, I gotta call you out on this.  I've been in the military for 22 years.  With a few exceptions, every single person I've ever met that's been in the military is someone with outstanding character and integrity.  I have NO problems with entrusting them with my family or life at all. 

There are several military guys on GRM along with me and I can tell just from their posts that if I met them in person, it'd be the exact same feeling.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
7/18/21 8:02 p.m.

In reply to docwyte :

Same here. Every military guy I know is top level. But, to be fair, I don't  typically associate with E36 M3heads, so the service people I know aren't E36 M3heads by design.

 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/18/21 8:24 p.m.
docwyte said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Yeah, I gotta call you out on this.  I've been in the military for 22 years.  With a few exceptions, every single person I've ever met that's been in the military is someone with outstanding character and integrity.  I have NO problems with entrusting them with my family or life at all. 

There are several military guys on GRM along with me and I can tell just from their posts that if I met them in person, it'd be the exact same feeling.

Cool beans.  I did 10 years in myself, USAF.
Once, when I was working in the tire shop (I was a 2T3x1 at the time) we had a Security Forces member come in and ask if we could fix a flat if the tire was off the vehicle.  We said it was a bit strange, but if he wanted to swap the spare around and whatever then we didn't care.  He came in with a wheel that was so damaged that one quarter of it wasn't even round.  The idiot had been screwing around and driven a cop car into one of those bollards they put on the corners of high traffic buildings so people don't drive into the building.  He then decided that instead of reporting it and taking his lumps he would fix the car himself by getting the parts from a junkyard and doing it in his garage offbase.  How he even got the car offbase we (in the tire shop) never found out.  It might have worked if the guy had enough of a brain to know how to turn a wrench.
After him, the Security Forces commander, Vehicle Maintenance commander, the LRS commander, and the base commander had a come-to-jesus meeting where they hashed out a plan that any further damage over a certain dollar amount caused by a Security Forces goober resulted in 50% of that being paid by the SecFo member.

Another jackass, this time from when I was a 3C2, decided that when he got out but before he started to try and get into OCS, he was going to take terminal leave overseas in Europe.  There was a problem with his paperwork and he had to come in to fix it, so the brass called him.  "Uh, I'm in France" wasn't really a popular reply when he hadn't applied to take terminal leave out of the country.  He came back, on his own dime, all leave was denied somehow and he had to spend the rest of his time in with one less stripe and an article 15.
Hell, I almost got an article 15 because I brought my '67 Mustang on base when I lived in the dorms and one of the dorm managers had some sort of connection through local towing and storage yards that the base had a contract with.  I could never prove anything, but there were multiple stories of people getting their cars impounded (some while deployed) and this guy driving them afterwards because he had bought them from the storage yard.

These are the light stories I know of people in the military being absolute berkeleyups.  There are some stories that I don't even dwell on when sober, some of those happened to people I know that were in other branches, that's how bad they are.

You want to believe that the military is filled with people that have outstanding character and integrity, that's great; personally I doubt that everyone you've run into is a great soldier, sailor, Airman, or Marine but I can't verify that nor do I want to.  As I said originally, your mileage may vary.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/18/21 8:26 p.m.
Appleseed said:

In reply to docwyte :

Same here. Every military guy I know is top level. But, to be fair, I don't  typically associate with E36 M3heads, so the service people I know aren't E36 M3heads by design.

I don't associate with E36 M3heads myself either, but you can't help who gets put in the seat next to you.  Just because you don't hang out with them doesn't mean you don't know them.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/18/21 10:16 p.m.

I was a full-fledged street-racer as a youngster, so am not really in a position to get sanctimonious (but I'm going to anyway). What strikes me here is that it's just another form of partying. You get a bunch of hedonistic young people and they look for opportunities to get a little crazy, whether it be trucks, sideshows, boats, beaches, bars, guns.... people want to get loud and stupid. 

What I've never gotten into is the obnoxious exhibitionist side of things. Want to act crazy? Do like the burning man people do and head out to the desert. Or inside a facility of some kind. Show some consideration.   

Tom1200
Tom1200 SuperDork
7/18/21 10:32 p.m.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

Nailed it.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/18/21 10:42 p.m.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

Want to act crazy? Do like the burning man people do and head out to the desert. Or inside a facility of some kind. Show some consideration.   

I think part of that is the spread of humanity.  Used to be that people could head down Hwy 20, get 15 miles out of town and hit up the drag strip.  Now there's an elementary street across from the remains of the strip.

Even burning man and the like are getting flak from locals.

Petrolburner
Petrolburner Dork
7/19/21 12:53 a.m.

 

 

Lost my whole train of thought after seeing this....drool...

Tyler H (Forum Supporter)
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/19/21 9:07 a.m.

The problem is narcissism.  The trucks, cars, side-by-sides, supercars or whatever have to be THAT much more extreme than the other guy to confirm that inflated self-worth. 

I went to Cars and Coffee yesterday for the first time in a few years and it was a totally different scene.  Took 3 kids and a dog.  We didn't make it 15 minutes before we had to bail out because of all of the tatted-up vape bros acting out, tossing revs, purging nitrous, backfiring and two-stepping....totally freaked out the kids and the dog.  

I left really confused and sad for the car hobby in general.  

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/19/21 9:23 a.m.

In reply to Tyler H (Forum Supporter) :

The organizers need to do their work to have them removed.  If you don't dissent, you give consent.

Tyler H (Forum Supporter)
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/19/21 9:49 a.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Tyler H (Forum Supporter) :

The organizers need to do their work to have them removed.  If you don't dissent, you give consent.

I agree -- but I think this is what the scene has become.   I'm not in a huff, but just not my scene.  We went to the lake instead and watched the 100k wakeboats throwing off 3' rollers.  It's everywhere. 

infernosg
infernosg Reader
7/19/21 10:24 a.m.

Our local C&C is going through great lengths to discourage this kind of behavior. Things like trying to prevent people from congregating and posting a local PO at the main exit. It seems to be working but the amount of backlash the organizers have received is surprising. Idiots come in all shapes and sizes but it is by far the late model Mustang/Camaro/MOPAR crowd that seems to cause the most issues.

I have to LOL at the military service = moral high ground claim. I worked as a civilian on base for several years. What happens when you give an 18 year-old a massive signing bonus and little real life responsibility (i.e. lives in the barracks) is not unexpected. I don't miss those daily commutes in the slightest.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
7/19/21 10:35 a.m.
infernosg said:

What happens when you give an 18 year-old a massive signing bonus and little real life responsibility (i.e. lives in the barracks) is not unexpected. I don't miss those daily commutes in the slightest.

We were looking at a local civil airport that adjoins Dover AFB as a possible AX venue.  Like, no-fence, shares-the-runway-with-C-5s-and-C-17s adjoins.

The base AF liaison literally said, "We will do anything we need to to make this work.  We'd love to have events like this where all our new kids can safely learn to drive their signing bonus hotrods."

In the end it was the civilian side that rejected us.

 

Harvey
Harvey SuperDork
7/19/21 10:58 a.m.

I've done a lot of really dumb crap in my youth. Luckily, none of it is forever archived photographically or in video on the Internet. That said, when it comes to bad behavior there is nothing better for that than a bunch of guys high on testosterone and low on self awareness. We were limited in how far we would take things by our own experiences and attitudes. Peer pressure was limited to the people in the group. Sure, we egged each other on to do crazy E36 M3, but after it's done you tend to reflect on the damage that ensued either physical, mental or otherwise as well as the accolades from your peers and decide whether the whole experience was worth it. Today, with the Internet there is no limit to the amount of positive feedback you can get for doing dumb things and with millions of people trying to get noticed if you aren't going past the point of reasonable behavior then you aren't getting those YouTube views and social media upvotes.

 

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
7/19/21 11:05 a.m.

In my life I've worked closely with steel workers, surgeons, bricklayers, lawyers, mail sorters, engineers, machinists, chemists, janitors, academics, and yes- soldiers.  The ratio of good/moral/honest/smart people to cheats/liars/dummies has been about the same for all of them.  I don't think any one profession or vocation can lay claim to being all good people or all bad people.  And even though I never served, I do agree that military service is a great avenue for some of these rudderless ships to get their act together and learn how to be an adult.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UltimaDork
7/19/21 1:27 p.m.
Mr_Asa said:
The article said:

Squats began in Central Florida, Muhlbauer says, with “kids who go deer dogging in the woods”—using dogs to chase down deer. “They get way back in the swamp and they need all the traction they can get, so they raise the front, lower the rear. The concept moved from the woods onto the road and to the custom truck world.”

My fat hairy FloridaMan ass it did.  I know many folks that deer hunt that way and all that is is a good way to get stuck.

Edit: Also, every single word Muhlbauer says in this thing sounds self-serving.  I don't get it

I don't see how this setup would help with traction in a swap or otherwise. The explanation I'd heard was that some low buck 2WD tractor pull trucks had more lift on the front than the back because they would run very large rear tires and they were trying to look like they had a pulling truck on road tires, although most example pictures of 2WD pull trucks suggest that isn't the case.

Nonfunctional mod fads can be pretty tough to account for.

pirate
pirate Dork
7/19/21 1:50 p.m.
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) said:

The problem is narcissism.  The trucks, cars, side-by-sides, supercars or whatever have to be THAT much more extreme than the other guy to confirm that inflated self-worth. 

I went to Cars and Coffee yesterday for the first time in a few years and it was a totally different scene.  Took 3 kids and a dog.  We didn't make it 15 minutes before we had to bail out because of all of the tatted-up vape bros acting out, tossing revs, purging nitrous, backfiring and two-stepping....totally freaked out the kids and the dog.  

I left really confused and sad for the car hobby in general.  

I imagine the language was hard to explain to the kids maybe even the dog. What rolls off the tongue nowadays even embarrass's me at times. 

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/19/21 2:00 p.m.

In regards to people in the military and behavior and stupidity. Whatever dumb E36 M3 you see from civilians, you get it in the military too. Especially the disgruntled or damaged folks. People who serve are no better or worse citizens than those who do not. Want to see some really dumb E36 M3? Go to any combat location where there's any period of boredom! 

 

In regards to people today are less smart than previous generations....I refuse to believe that. Just looking at history, previous generations did dumb E36 M3 and more inhumane things to each other than you'd see today. Often, no one knew about it or it was covered up, but also done obnoxiously.  The difference from then and now? The ability to instantly share experiences and events via technology. But, I'd take todays idiots over the crimes-against-humanity inhumane looking the other way folks of yesterday.

 

And the opportunity to learn reading and writing isn't a measurement of intelligence but rather a measurement of resources. 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
7/19/21 2:09 p.m.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

In my life I've worked closely with steel workers, surgeons, bricklayers, lawyers, mail sorters, engineers, machinists, chemists, janitors, academics, and yes- soldiers.  The ratio of good/moral/honest/smart people to cheats/liars/dummies has been about the same for all of them.  I don't think any one profession or vocation can lay claim to being all good people or all bad people.  And even though I never served, I do agree that military service is a great avenue for some of these rudderless ships to get their act together and learn how to be an adult.

  I have to agree with your assessment of the military.  No it's not perfect.  They have the Brig for a reason and there is always a few who fail to follow the rules and guidance given to them.  
     However I went in a boy and became a man in a short time.  While I'm far from perfect I am grateful   for the Navy teaching me respect and maturity. I'm now 73 and refer to people as Ma'am or Sir almost without regard their age. 

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UltimaDork
7/19/21 2:18 p.m.

As for whether humans are getting dumber, I believe the answer is no - they just have more opportunities to upload their stupidity to a wider audience. There have been plenty of historical examples of extreme stupidity around when nobody had video equipment to film it. My my can't-remember-how-many-greats grandfather, for example, died along with several of his kids trying to collect a reward for moving a barrel of nitroglycerin that had been sitting for years. They succeeded in relocating the barrel, but at much higher speeds and in more directions than intended.

Tyler H (Forum Supporter)
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/19/21 3:34 p.m.

People aren't getting dumber, we just gave them all megaphones and a global audience via the internet.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/19/21 3:52 p.m.
MadScientistMatt said:
Mr_Asa said:
The article said:

Squats began in Central Florida, Muhlbauer says, with “kids who go deer dogging in the woods”—using dogs to chase down deer. “They get way back in the swamp and they need all the traction they can get, so they raise the front, lower the rear. The concept moved from the woods onto the road and to the custom truck world.”

My fat hairy FloridaMan ass it did.  I know many folks that deer hunt that way and all that is is a good way to get stuck.

Edit: Also, every single word Muhlbauer says in this thing sounds self-serving.  I don't get it

I don't see how this setup would help with traction in a swap or otherwise. The explanation I'd heard was that some low buck 2WD tractor pull trucks had more lift on the front than the back because they would run very large rear tires and they were trying to look like they had a pulling truck on road tires, although most example pictures of 2WD pull trucks suggest that isn't the case.

Nonfunctional mod fads can be pretty tough to account for.

Having owned a couple of Toyota pickups, I always assumed the Carolina Squat came about because it's really easy to lift the front torsion bar suspension but you have to swap out parts to lift the rear. Maybe you just yank out the rear springs instead. I de-squatted one of my pickups shortly after buying it by putting an impact gun on the torsion bar bolts, took about 2 minutes. That was before the look had a name.

thatsnowinnebago
thatsnowinnebago GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
7/19/21 5:26 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
MadScientistMatt said:
Mr_Asa said:
The article said:

Squats began in Central Florida, Muhlbauer says, with “kids who go deer dogging in the woods”—using dogs to chase down deer. “They get way back in the swamp and they need all the traction they can get, so they raise the front, lower the rear. The concept moved from the woods onto the road and to the custom truck world.”

My fat hairy FloridaMan ass it did.  I know many folks that deer hunt that way and all that is is a good way to get stuck.

Edit: Also, every single word Muhlbauer says in this thing sounds self-serving.  I don't get it

I don't see how this setup would help with traction in a swap or otherwise. The explanation I'd heard was that some low buck 2WD tractor pull trucks had more lift on the front than the back because they would run very large rear tires and they were trying to look like they had a pulling truck on road tires, although most example pictures of 2WD pull trucks suggest that isn't the case.

Nonfunctional mod fads can be pretty tough to account for.

Having owned a couple of Toyota pickups, I always assumed the Carolina Squat came about because it's really easy to lift the front torsion bar suspension but you have to swap out parts to lift the rear. Maybe you just yank out the rear springs instead. I de-squatted one of my pickups shortly after buying it by putting an impact gun on the torsion bar bolts, took about 2 minutes. That was before the look had a name.

Square left in 50 caution ocean! - Author of How To Build a High Performance Mazda Miata

I always thought it came from the SoCal desert bros who'd get a long travel kit for the front and leave the rear stock. Old desert racers used to run lower ride height in the rear too, but modern stuff is level.

Either way, I call BS on the deer hunting story.

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/19/21 6:44 p.m.
Petrolburner said:

 

 

Lost my whole train of thought after seeing this....drool...

This makes me want to build a donk devil

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
7/19/21 9:25 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

Donk the V-12. Blow every single mind that encounters it. 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/19/21 9:49 p.m.

In reply to Appleseed :

Especially frenchy's

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE Dork
7/20/21 10:42 a.m.

In reply to yupididit :

Or perhaps... SLAB the V12

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
7/20/21 2:05 p.m.

A quick note on the military:  An important aspect is going to be what part of the military.  Someone mentioned the Marines, and I know Frenchy was aviation (I forget if it was Navy or Air Force).  Those will tend to have a slightly different "slice" of the population.

As another note:  I guy on the radio, who's dad was a district court judge was known to say, "if you want to solve the crime problem in the US, just put every male in the military from 18-25".   He may have said jail, but you get the point.

Certainly no disrespect for the military or service from me, but as I like to say, there are a-holes in every group you can define, and and doesn't take many a-holes to cause a lot of problems.  This of course applies to car enthusiast also.

In our local C&C, we have had some issues with a-holes making noise.  And yes, it seems to mostly come from the newer Mustang and Mopar crowd.  Generally the crowd is a bit older and more respectful though (see military / jail note above).

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
8/9/21 9:30 a.m.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
8/9/21 2:29 p.m.

In reply to aircooled :

I dodged the draft ( remember that? ) by joining the Navy. I went in enlisted and testing the second day reveled a pretty High IQ which put me in NESEP  ( Navy Enlisted Scientific Education  Program ). I selected flying as my study course. And that's how I wound up landing on aircraft carriers. That and the fact that the Navy lost a lot of fliers in Vietnam about that time. Sort of like WW 2 with enlisted pilots only not very many of us made it. 
      Sorry I digress. No cross section of any group in society is perfect.  But the military does give some young men a second chance to learn lessons their parents should have taught.   In a very real, no nonsense way.  While giving them a paycheck and taking care of them probably a whole lot better than their parents could. 

     
 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
9/28/21 9:25 a.m.
Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
9/28/21 10:02 a.m.
ProDarwin said:

This is fitting for this thread :(

A Teenager Hit Six Cyclists While Trying To Roll Coal And Was Not Arrested

berkeley

Jesus berkeleying Christ. Throw the book at him and the truck too for good measure

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
9/28/21 10:03 a.m.

I do think people are a but more stupid then in the past but I think it's more prevalent now because everyone has a global platform in order to air their stupidity.

 

I also think it has to do with the fact that we really don't punish people for being stupid anymore, so people get bolder with their stupidity......like the guy who hit 6 people

spitfirebill
spitfirebill MegaDork
9/28/21 10:06 a.m.
Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:
ProDarwin said:

This is fitting for this thread :(

A Teenager Hit Six Cyclists While Trying To Roll Coal And Was Not Arrested

berkeley

Jesus berkeleying Christ. Throw the book at him and the truck too for good measure

Guy was not arrested.  Why, I have no idea.  I hope he will be.  And seize his truck.  

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/28/21 10:25 a.m.

In reply to spitfirebill :

Who's he related to? Needs to be charged.

Tyler H (Forum Supporter)
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
9/28/21 10:31 a.m.

I hope one of those Ironman athletes was well-enough to whip his ass.  But, road cyclists have a strange relationship with risk assessment.  I'm 100% for their right to ride on public streets but the choice to do so seems dubious.  

I run about 750 miles a year on greenways.  There are two crosswalks on my 5 mile circuit.  I've had two close calls in the last year crossing a two-lane road at a marked pedestrian crossing.  Can't imagine the amount of stupidity these iron-butt bikers see on their 50-mile road rides.

Trent
Trent PowerDork
9/28/21 10:56 a.m.

Cyclists have been the target of coal-rollers, as KPRC reports, and this incident is exactly what can happen in the aftermath of these stunts.

 

 

Geeze Jalopnik.  I can think of words like 'harassment", "menacing" or "assault" but the last word that would come to mind is "stunt". It makes it sound so casual.

 

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and MegaDork
9/28/21 11:01 a.m.

We have one side of the story. While there is a good chance the truck driver was being a dick, do we know he was breaking the law?

I have personally had road cyclists attempt to swerve in front of me to stop me from passing them on two-lane roads with no other traffic in sight. As I was fully in the other lane, if I had hit him it would have been his fault. Instead of passing him with 12' of clearance, I passed him at less than 2' at 60 mph, and the bow wave coming off my enclosed trailer blew him off the road and into the ditch. 

Looks to be a dash camera in the windshield of the truck. I would be super interested in reviewing the footage. 

Opti
Opti Dork
9/28/21 11:15 a.m.

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

No sir. This is the land of guilty until proven innocent.

Plus coal rollers are on GRM list of most wanted, right behind exhaust pops, so hes extra guilty.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/28/21 11:57 a.m.

Yeah, he "accidentally" hit six cyclists. I'm sure he's innocent as the driven snow. What it sounds like is that he was looking at his rear view mirror, enjoying the view of the rear group of cyclists choking on his fumes while he ran right into the first group. Not homicidal, but idiotic in a way that only a teenage boy can be. 

chandler
chandler UltimaDork
9/28/21 12:08 p.m.

It mentions the "first" time which means he probably was going by again to smoke them out which is crappy human behavior.

 

Bicyclists seem to be ill mannered at "sharing" the road, I know there are other bicyclists on here but I see them veer in front of cars and generally make a nuisance of themselves. 

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and MegaDork
9/28/21 12:11 p.m.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

And you know this for a fact, how? I would love to know where you found that information so I can also make an informed decision.

Without the facts, you are making assumptions based on your prejudice and a poorly written article, instead of facts. 

 

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/28/21 12:17 p.m.
chandler said:

Bicyclists seem to be ill mannered at "sharing" the road, I know there are other bicyclists on here but I see them veer in front of cars and generally make a nuisance of themselves. 

Many car enthusiasts are sometimes ill-mannered as well - including myself. I've ridden thousands of miles - off road. Just can't abide the difference  in mass between me and that distracted or aggressive guy in the car behind me. Yet some bikers act like knuckleheads despite the fact that they are the proverbial Chihuahua in a world of Mastifs. 

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/28/21 12:22 p.m.

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

What I "know" is that six cyclists were hit. It strains credulity to suggest that it wasn't largely the truckers fault.  As for the rest of what I said, I prefaced it with "what it sounds like", which is an admission that I do not in fact know for sure.   

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
9/28/21 12:29 p.m.
Toyman01 + Sized and said:

We have one side of the story. While there is a good chance the truck driver was being a dick, do we know he was breaking the law?

I know we're talking about Texas here, but presumably they do also have laws about reckless driving, reckless endangerment, criminal negligence, and vehicular assault.

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and MegaDork
9/28/21 12:37 p.m.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

It strains credulity to suggest that it wasn't largely the truckers fault.

Having seen the common behavior of both road cyclists and coal rollers, my personal prejudice suggests both of them were idiots and both of them were at fault. They should both be punished and have their toys taken away. Since I don't actually know the facts I choose to keep my prejudice to myself and not call for blood on social media. The world would be a better place if more people would do that. 

 

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and MegaDork
9/28/21 12:41 p.m.
Driven5 said:
Toyman01 + Sized and said:

We have one side of the story. While there is a good chance the truck driver was being a dick, do we know he was breaking the law?

Presumably things like reckless driving, reckless endangerment, criminal negligence, and vehicular assault are laws in most states.

So based on a Japolink article, you know for a fact that the truck driver is guilty of all of those? Or have you read something other than the posted article? I'd be interested in reading it if so. 

 

 

wae
wae UberDork
9/28/21 1:09 p.m.

That article does absolutely give the impression that the truck driver was acting with pure evil and malice and intentionally drove over six people while also trying to harass the larger group.  But there's a lot of bias in there.  Let's not forget that we're talking about a kid here with a not-fully-formed brain and a whole lotta truck underneath him.  I know that when I was that age it is only because God watches over fools and drunks that I was never in the news (by name, at least) for doing something stupid.  There were plenty of times where I exercised really poor judgement and it's a miracle that nobody got hurt or worse.  And I'm sure that every single person calling for this kid's head has had at least one of those times in their past.  I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a criminal investigation here, but there is space between negligence and overt acts and should be taken into account.  Unless the investigation shows that the kid really was trying to run down cyclists, in which case maybe trying as an adult makes sense.

Rons
Rons GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
9/28/21 1:10 p.m.

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

 Posts above assume facts in evidence. Some facts from a case in BC - Sunday am driver comes up on a group of cyclists on River Road in Richmond BC between Westminster Highway and No. 6 Road. River Rd winds along the North Arm of the Fraser River. The vehicle struck and killed one cyclist.

Edit remove conjecture and add newspaper article

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/b-c/driver-who-killed-richmond-cyclist-given-one-year-ban-1-800-fine-1.23304890

jeffpdesign
jeffpdesign New Reader
9/28/21 1:14 p.m.

It looks like it was a 4-lane highway. When I see a slower vehicle in the right lane, I move over to the left lane to pass. I assume its my fault to rear end the slower vehicle(s) bicycle or Miata.  

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) UltimaDork
9/28/21 1:23 p.m.

In before the lock, with an honest opinion; the kid is a terrorist.  It fits the definition of terrorism.  The first thing he seems to have asked is if he was going to jail when he got out of the truck.  This was harrasment gone beyond what he had intended.

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/28/21 1:50 p.m.

The problem here is we don't know all the facts: 

Yes on the surface it appears the truck driver should be charged but there a are a couple of things to consider.

I looked this up. Texas 551.103C you may ride two abreast as long as you don't impede traffic. Were the riders violating this rule? (We don't know)

Did the kid violate any laws; speeding, inattentive driving? (We don't know)

Once upon a time I was an avid cyclist and one of the things the community is bad at is taking responsibility for it's behavior.

On the surface it appears that the driver should be charged but again we do not know all the facts.

Did cyclists try to impede the truck because they were mad that he was being a douche? At the same time was the kid, as suggested looking in the mirror and laughing so he failed to see he was going to run down the cyclists?

All total speculation because we don't know all of the facts yet. 

 

 

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and MegaDork
9/28/21 1:52 p.m.
jeffpdesign said:

It looks like it was a 4-lane highway. When I see a slower vehicle in the right lane, I move over to the left lane to pass. I assume its my fault to rear end the slower vehicle(s) bicycle or Miata.  

 In case you missed it earlier.

Quoting myself:  I have personally had road cyclists attempt to swerve in front of me to stop me from passing them on two-lane roads with no other traffic in sight. As I was fully in the other lane, if I had hit him it would have been his fault. Instead of passing him with 12' of clearance, I passed him at less than 2' at 60 mph, and the bow wave coming off my enclosed trailer blew him off the road and into the ditch. 

As did I when passing the cyclist I blew off the road into the ditch. Is it my fault he crashed? If he had come on across in front of me would it be my fault if I hit him? Actions like this are why I always run a dash camera. Not all the idiots are in cars. 

While I agree there is a fair chance the driver of the truck is the likely responsible party, I'll let the courts decide the truth based on the facts of the case instead of making a knee-jerk statement on social media. 

Welcome to the court of public opinion where everyone is guilty and  evidence doesn't matter - Drew Carey Whose Line - quickmeme

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
9/28/21 2:13 p.m.
Toyman01 + Sized and said:

So based on a Japolink article, you know for a fact that the truck driver is guilty of all of those? Or have you read something other than the posted article? I'd be interested in reading it if so. 

All I'm saying is that regardless of what happened between the coal rolling and the impact with the cyclists, the singular simple act alone of coal rolling the cyclists is substantial evidence of already having broken multiple laws, with additional levels of severity tacked on due to the end result being serious injury. That's not to say it isn't possible that the cyclists share some blame in escalating the final way the sequence of events unfolded, or perhaps even broke laws themselves, but does nothing to change that all indications are the the truck driver could easily be considered having broken multiple laws based only on the known portion of the sequence of events.

Reckless driving: Any person who drives any vehicle in willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property is guilty of reckless driving. (A truck coal rolling cyclists)

Reckless endangerment: Reckless endangerment is a crime consisting of acts that create a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. (A truck coal rolling cyclists)

Criminal negligence: Criminal negligence refers to conduct in which a person ignores a known or obvious risk, or disregards the life and safety of others. (A truck coal rolling cyclists)

Vehicular assault: A person is guilty of vehicular assault if he or she operates or drives any vehicle:

(a) In a reckless manner and causes substantial bodily harm to another; or (A truck coal rolling cyclists with the end result being running into/over them)

(b) While under the influence of intoxicating liquor or any drug, as defined, and causes substantial bodily harm to another; or

(c) With disregard for the safety of others and causes substantial bodily harm to another. (A truck coal rolling cyclists with the end result being running into/over them)

If you have read anything disputing that he ever coal rolled them though, I'd love to read it.

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and MegaDork
9/28/21 2:58 p.m.

In reply to Driven5 :

Again you are stating suppositions as fact. 

You don't have any more information than I do but you are willing to throw down a guilty verdict based on a short, poorly written article. I sincerely hope you aren't a judge. You would make a great reporter though. laugh

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/28/21 3:14 p.m.

In reply to Driven5 :

So I will admit to being a bit contrary on this but how is coal rolling in and of itself reckless. One can coal roll someone by simply accelerating briskly, which in and off itself is not necessarily reckless.

Driving like a douche can be done in a completely legal manner.

 

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and MegaDork
9/28/21 3:32 p.m.

So after spending the last 20 minutes looking for more information, I still can't tell you if the boy is guilty or not. There are zero facts available and only one possibly biased statement from a cyclist that was riding in a different group that was passed safely.

There are lots of news articles that are obviously more interested in sensationalism than facts though, so the "news" is staying true to form. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that most of us are spouting the same information.

I will wait for the local PD to finish their investigation.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/28/21 3:33 p.m.
Tom1200 said:

So I will admit to being a bit contrary on this but how is coal rolling in and of itself reckless. One can coal roll someone by simply accelerating briskly, which in and off itself is not necessarily reckless.

If you've got an LB7 that needs injectors it'll do that just by accelerating gently after it's been idling for a while...

The fact that the driver of the truck wasn't arrested at the scene suggests to me that it wasn't the open-and-shut case that the Jalopnik article seems to imply.

wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L)
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/28/21 4:06 p.m.

 

84FSP
84FSP UltraDork
9/28/21 4:24 p.m.

Overall it is just sad - a dumb kid made a tragic mistake and some cyclists (unclear on anything in regards to their safety/intelligence of behavior) got seriously hurt.  I'm just glad no one was killed.  A 6K lb truck accelerating vs anything is a recipe for disaster.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/28/21 4:45 p.m.
wae said:

That article does absolutely give the impression that the truck driver was acting with pure evil and malice and intentionally drove over six people while also trying to harass the larger group.  But there's a lot of bias in there.  Let's not forget that we're talking about a kid here with a not-fully-formed brain and a whole lotta truck underneath him.  I know that when I was that age it is only because God watches over fools and drunks that I was never in the news (by name, at least) for doing something stupid.  There were plenty of times where I exercised really poor judgement and it's a miracle that nobody got hurt or worse.  And I'm sure that every single person calling for this kid's head has had at least one of those times in their past.  I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a criminal investigation here, but there is space between negligence and overt acts and should be taken into account.  Unless the investigation shows that the kid really was trying to run down cyclists, in which case maybe trying as an adult makes sense.

On the other hand, it is also a state where people had been known to shoot at cyclists on the road, IIRC.

 

It is easy to jump to conclusions before the facts are presented when there is a precedence of ill behavior.  That's human nature talking out our pattern-seeking-brain's asses.

jeffpdesign
jeffpdesign New Reader
9/28/21 5:02 p.m.

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

We agree on cameras! Yay! I have a rear facing one on my roadbike. It's illegal in my state for a car to be closer than 36" when they pass me. And yes, it's legal for me to take a full lane.

Also, maybe you missed, it, but I never said anyone was guilty or innocent. Just that I pass on the left. 

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
9/28/21 5:59 p.m.

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

I stated nothing more as 'fact' than you, as I have no real expectation of the guilt determining black-and-white 'facts' you seem to be looking for in situations like this. For instance, what you call a potentially biased statement by a cyclist that was passed safely, others would just as rightfully call your own potential bias discrediting an eye witness account from a cyclist that narrowly escaped serious injury. Which is more 'factual' is entirely open to interpretation of the the available evidence. 

 

In reply to Tom1200 :

A truck rolling coal is not in and of itself reckless. A truck rolling coal in close proximity to pedestrians, cyclists, and/or other motorists is.

preach (fs)
preach (fs) GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/28/21 6:09 p.m.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

The fact that the driver of the truck wasn't arrested at the scene suggests to me that it wasn't the open-and-shut case that the Jalopnik article seems to imply.

This. Yet, he is 16.

All around a E36 M3ty story.

outasite
outasite HalfDork
9/28/21 6:15 p.m.

In reply to Tyler H (Forum Supporter) :

After riding on highways for 15 years I switched to bike trails in the early 2000s. Distracted drivers escalated with accelerated cell phone usage.

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/28/21 6:19 p.m.
Driven5 said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

A truck rolling coal is not in and of itself reckless. A truck rolling coal in close proximity to pedestrians, cyclists, and/or other motorists is.

I was speaking from a legal sense.

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
9/28/21 6:43 p.m.

In reply to Tom1200 :

So was I. 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/28/21 7:35 p.m.

Severe injury doesn't appear to be in question.  Nor is the intention of the driver to harass the people he hit, most especially if it's true that he made multiple passes.
 

Yet we're going to get into a dispute over whether the victims deserved to be hit by a truck based on unrelated personal experience with people on bikes. 
 

If that's your perspective on this, go ahead. Just don't expect me to agree with you. 
 

 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/28/21 7:52 p.m.

I prefer to ride on trails on my bikes for this reason.  I really like an old railroad converted to a multi use trail which is why I'm a member of rails to trails. 

I don't ride on roads in Dallas generally because of bad cyclists and bad drivers.  I actually rolled down my window and told a pack of local bikers to stop running stop signs one day because it makes all cyclists look like morons and ruins the road for everyone.  There is plenty of bad behavior to go around.

Also are we really still arguing that people today aren't dumber than previous generations?  A lack of concern and empathy for your fellow man shows a deterioration of mental capacity if you ask me.  I will just sit back and wait a few more months and you'll have another story showing how some stupid person carelessly and possibly on purpose harmed a bunch of their fellow human beings. 

You want to see stupid on a massive destructive scale?  Check out Australia right now.  If the leaders and police had any sense of decency, empathy or humanity things would be handled way differently there. 

 

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/28/21 8:05 p.m.

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

So keeping in mind that my work deals with what does the law/contract/regulation say. 

First no one deserves to be hit, I don't think anyone is saying that, or at least I'm not.

What started this debate/discussion was the issue of the driver not being charged.

To that end the driver may not have violated a single law and as such wasn't be charged. Being a douche or a dirt bag  is not illegal.

If perchance the cyclists were in violation of some traffic law then it further solidifies the authorities reason for not charging the driver.

Also do not take what I'm saying as my supporting the driver in any way. 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/28/21 8:11 p.m.
Tom1200 said:

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

So keeping in mind that my work deals with what does the law/contract/regulation say. 

First no one deserves to be hit, I don't think anyone is saying that, or at least I'm not.

What started this debate/discussion was the issue of the driver not being charged.

To that end the driver may not have violated a single law and as such wasn't be charged. Being a douche or a dirt bag  is not illegal.

If perchance the cyclists were in violation of some traffic law then it further solidifies the authorities reason for not charging the driver.

Also do not take what I'm saying as my supporting the driver in any way. 

Thank you for clarifying that. 

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/28/21 8:19 p.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

I prefer to ride on trails on my bikes for this reason.  I really like an old railroad converted to a multi use trail which is why I'm a member of rails to trails. 

Also are we really still arguing that people today aren't dumber than previous generations?  A lack of concern and empathy for your fellow man shows a deterioration of mental capacity if you ask me.  I will just sit back and wait a few more months and you'll have another story showing how some stupid person carelessly and possibly on purpose harmed a bunch of their fellow human beings. 

 

I won't ride on roads anymore and like you stick to trail systems.

As for being dumber than previous generations; they aren't. Contemplate that during World War I people actually stoned Dachshunds to death becuase they were "German" dogs.

I could site examples from almost every generation for the past 500 years of humans being inhuman.

Pepe
Pepe New Reader
9/28/21 8:28 p.m.

Flynn effect.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/28/21 9:59 p.m.

I am sorry a mistake isn't running over 6 cyclist after rolling coal at them. I swear it is basically berkeleying legal to murder cyclist. Just say you didn't berkeley see them there and run them over. Just seeing that truck I remember those douche bags from high school rolling around in their penis compensator 5000s bought with daddy's money. But of course nothing will ever happen to that piece of E36 M3 cause cyclists are basically second class citizens on the road. 

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/28/21 10:34 p.m.

In reply to 93EXCivic :

The level of inattentive driving is such that I no longer ride a street bike either. Short of a driver being inebriated the laws are such that not much can be done. Read you can be an incompetent or careless driver and there isn't much that can be done.

My Grandmother got killed crossing the street; it was raining heavily and she left it to late. The guy who hit her pretty much acted like an ass.

With that said I can't villify the guy, while he could have been more careful given the conditions the reality is my grandmother was  J-walking.

There are many are as many traffic fatalities as there are murders. In general people don't think anything bad can happen in traffic and so they act accordingly. 

 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/28/21 11:04 p.m.
Tom1200 said:

In reply to 93EXCivic :

The level of inattentive driving is such that I no longer ride a street bike either. Short of a driver being inebriated the laws are such that not much can be done.

Heck I feel it could be argued that inebriated drivers are more attentive than many of the drivers on the roads today. 

 

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and MegaDork
9/29/21 7:19 a.m.
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

Severe injury doesn't appear to be in question.  Nor is the intention of the driver to harass the people he hit, most especially if it's true that he made multiple passes.
 

Yet we're going to get into a dispute over whether the victims deserved to be hit by a truck based on unrelated personal experience with people on bikes. 
 

If that's your perspective on this, go ahead. Just don't expect me to agree with you. 
 

 

I think your facts are a little skewed. The truck didn't make multiple passes of a group of cyclists. No one, including the eyewitness, has stated that he did. He passed or attempted to pass 2 different groups of cyclists. One group successfully, the other resulting in the 6 cyclists being hit. Did he slow down behind the cyclists? Probably, I do because cyclists are frequently unpredictable. Did he accelerate past them, undoubtedly? I do, to make the pass as quickly as possible. Did he do that to intentionally roll coal at them, at a guess, I would say yes but I don't know. Did he swerve into them? I don't know. Did the cyclist swerve in front of the truck? No clue. And that's the entire point of my posts in here. We don't know. I'm willing to let the PD do their investigation before throwing out accusations. 

I am 100% certain that no one in this thread has said anyone deserved to be hit. If you think that is true, you should go back are reread the last few pages. The predominant statement has been that the truck driver should go to jail. How you can reach that decision with basically zero facts is beyond me but many of you have done it.

It is never a good idea to let your assumptions color your thoughts. Being objective is important. Justice is important. It's worth taking the time to do it right. Especially when your emotions scream for punishment first. 

And with that, I'm out. There is no reason to continue the discussion with people that have already made up their minds. 

 

 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/29/21 7:29 a.m.

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

Do you honestly believe 6 cyclist had a suicide pact on a straight piece of road to turn in front of a massive pickup?

chandler
chandler UltimaDork
9/29/21 8:00 a.m.

I'm personally on Toymans side here; but the story says that it was a 75 mile ride and he had toyed with them before. We need a LOT more facts before we play judge.

 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
9/29/21 8:14 a.m.
93EXCivic said:

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

Do you honestly believe 6 cyclist had a suicide pact on a straight piece of road to turn in front of a massive pickup?

Packs of cyclists are even worse. I have seen groups completely blow stop signs out on the back roads even through oncoming traffic. I put nothing past them, they are the worst. The worst. We still have horses, buggies, little carts with ponies, children on scooters, runners, farm implements on the streets. 

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and MegaDork
9/29/21 8:16 a.m.

One more statement to clear up some obvious confusion. 

If the driver of the truck is guilty, he absolutely deserves to face whatever punishment the courts decide. 

He also absolutely deserves due process and the presumption of innocence until that guilt is proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

Without these, we don't have the rule of law. 

Let's give the authorities a chance to do their job before breaking out the pitchforks and torches. 

 

jharry3
jharry3 GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/29/21 8:34 a.m.

That area west of Houston gets really rural.  The natives seriously hate cyclists and think its funny to scare them. The cyclists are city people going for a ride on country roads with no shoulder at all.  They have to ride in the road.  

I personally have had conversations at work with some of these yahoos.   I would tell them because of people like them I only ride my bike on bike trails. 

On the flip side: The Houston bike riders on bike trails are also horrible.  They weave in and out of trail walkers and have near head on collisions with oncoming cyclists.  I have had to go off the asphalt path more then once.   

Basically riding a bicycle in the greater Houston area is more risky than in a bike friendly city.

Tyler H (Forum Supporter)
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
9/29/21 8:39 a.m.
outasite said:

In reply to Tyler H (Forum Supporter) :

After riding on highways for 15 years I switched to bike trails in the early 2000s. Distracted drivers escalated with accelerated cell phone usage.

Agreed, I mountain bike occasionally or stick to greenways.  I've had a couple of close calls, like cresting a blind hill and coming up on a cyclist when there was a car coming the other way -- nowhere to pass, huge speed differential.  Luckily I wasn't changing a radio station or something at the time.  Hit the ABS and of course I get the fist shake when I can safely pass them.  I have to think this happens to them every time they ride?

Regarding the Jr Coal Roller -- indicted or not, there will be enough civil lawsuits to extract all of the cash, pain, and suffering there is to be had.

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
9/29/21 8:43 a.m.

Not sure it matters if the cyclists were in the middle of the road or not.  They get treated like motor vehicles and have the right to the lane.  If any other motor vehicle hits them, they need to be charged.  So sorry, this kid needs to have the book thrown at him.

In response to the DUI laws charging people, those are way too lax too.  People are allowed multiple DUI's without anything happening and people haven't been charged appropriately after killing someone while driving DUI.

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf HalfDork
9/29/21 8:47 a.m.
docwyte said:

Not sure it matters if the cyclists were in the middle of the road or not.  They get treated like motor vehicles and have the right to the lane.  If any other motor vehicle hits them, they need to be charged.  So sorry, this kid needs to have the book thrown at him.

In response to the DUI laws charging people, those are way too lax too.  People are allowed multiple DUI's without anything happening and people haven't been charged appropriately after killing someone while driving DUI.

YES THIS.

wae
wae UberDork
9/29/21 9:13 a.m.
L5wolvesf said:
docwyte said:

Not sure it matters if the cyclists were in the middle of the road or not.  They get treated like motor vehicles and have the right to the lane.  If any other motor vehicle hits them, they need to be charged.  So sorry, this kid needs to have the book thrown at him.

In response to the DUI laws charging people, those are way too lax too.  People are allowed multiple DUI's without anything happening and people haven't been charged appropriately after killing someone while driving DUI.

YES THIS.

NO NOT THAT.

Every collision between vehicles is not a criminal act for which someone should be charged.  Even when a big bad truck hits a peaceful bicycle.  In this situation, charges may be appropriate and they may not.  Anyone who is privy to the results of the investigation can have an informed opinion on the matter.  But the rest of us do not know what happened and if this was a wanton act, a case of negligence, or an accident.

If this was a wanton act - throw the book.  If it was negligent behavior, file appropriate charges and hope that lessons are learned and a life is salvaged.  If it was an accident, then let insurance do its job, persue civil action to recover damages as appropriate, and hope that lessons are learned.

I'm so sick of all this outrage porn and armchair legal wrangling from people that don't know what the facts are.  We have a process to investigate, indict, try, and then sentence those that may have broken the law.  Let's follow those steps.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/29/21 9:44 a.m.

I am just sick and tried of this E36 M3. Too often the driver gets nothing done to them or just a slap on the wrist. Like a case not long ago where a cyclist was hit and killed on his bike and the motorists was only charged with failure to leave enough room to pass. I am sorry but that isnt good enough. He berkeleying killed a man and it was clearly the drivers fault. 

 

Cars keep getting faster, heavier and easier to drive at speed. Urban planning keeps giving complete priotity to moving these cars at speed even in places where that makes no sense. There are more and more distractions for drivers and there is no punishment when they do screw up. So we have spiking cyclist and pedestrian deaths. It is complete and utter bullE36 M3.

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/29/21 10:49 a.m.

In reply to 93EXCivic :

Sadly it isn't this cut and dry.  

DUI accounts for 30% of fatalities, distracted driving while officially around 14-15% is believed to be more like 25% of fatalities.  So that leaves half of fatal accidents that are simply accidents. 

Next, I can only speak for Vegas but here 70% of pedestrian deaths involve people J-walking; usually at night.

As for cyclists; while it's been a couple of years since I saw the statistics but it was nearly a 50/50 split of the fault between the cyclists and the drivers.  

The one thing we haven't discussed is this was a teen driver; for all we know this crash may have been in large part due to his inexperience as a driver. Teenagers have higher insurance rates for a reason. 

We won't really know what happened for several weeks.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/29/21 11:03 a.m.

In reply to Tom1200 :

I mean some of it is. Speed kills simple as. Your survival rates for pedestrains and cyclists go down massively as the speed of vehicles increases. Look at some of the urban planning. You have 45 mph streets going between rows of shopping centers. You can't say it isn't a recipe for problems. Also it is just easier to drive a modern car at speed then an older one for the average driver and the roads are designed to be as easy to maintain speed on as possible. So we also have speeding in areas where the speed limit is already too high.

Pedestrain deaths have risen 46% over the last decade. https://www.ghsa.org/resources/news-releases/GHSA/Ped-Spotlight-Addendum21

Cyclist deaths among adult men have tripled since 1975. https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/bicyclists

Something is making it worst and IMO it isn't the cyclist or pedestrains.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/29/21 11:08 a.m.
93EXCivic said:

I am just sick and tried of this E36 M3. Too often the driver gets nothing done to them or just a slap on the wrist. Like a case not long ago where a cyclist was hit and killed on his bike and the motorists was only charged with failure to leave enough room to pass. I am sorry but that isnt good enough. He berkeleying killed a man and it was clearly the drivers fault. 

"clearly" how?  did you witness it yourself?  Was there video footage?  Or are you just saying this based on what you saw on the TV news and read on Facebook?

Stop believing everything you read on the Internet or hear on TV.  Ask yourself what is more likely:  that a group of prosecutors with no previous connection to this driver decided to let him off with murder for no reason at all, or that the news reporters exaggerated facts, presented a partial truth, or otherwise presented a slanted story in order to garner more outrage, more views, more clicks, and ultimately more advertising?

As an exercise, the next time you find a news story dealing with a topic on which you have a substantial amount of personal knowledge, read that article carefully and count how many mistakes, omissions, or other problems it has.  Odds are there will be at least 2 or 3 per paragraph, many of them minor, but some of them really significant.  Now assume that EVERY news article you encounter has that same distribution of errors.

 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/29/21 11:39 a.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Clearly his fault cause the driver was cited for failing to leave room to pass.

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/29/21 12:54 p.m.
93EXCivic said:

Pedestrain deaths have risen 46% over the last decade. https://www.ghsa.org/resources/news-releases/GHSA/Ped-Spotlight-Addendum21

Cyclist deaths among adult men have tripled since 1975. https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/bicyclists

Something is making it worst and IMO it isn't the cyclist or pedestrains.

Let's think about that for a minute;

Pedestrian deaths are up but as mentioned in my area the pedestrians themselves are at fault 70% of the time.  Cycling deaths for adult men have tripled and Cyclists are at fault near 50% of the time. 

So the both pedestrians and cyclists are both contributing to the rise every bit as much as motorists.

Near me there is a 6 lane roadway that they are cutting down to from 45 to 35 mph partially in an effort to cut down on pedestrian deaths. I can tell you right now it won't have the success officials are expecting ; the main issue is people get off the bus and step out into traffic 100ft from the crosswalk. They are either too lazy or in to much of a hurry; either way they don't perceive it as risky behavior. Rather than ticket the J-walkers (70% of the problem) they go after motorists (30% of the problem) because they know the J-walkers probably can't afford or won't pay the ticket.

As cycling became more popular I've noticed a mindset of some cyclists going from riding defensively to "we have a right to the road as well", which they do but riding three abreast may not be legal and for good reason. One of our scenic byways had a cycle path but cyclists didn't want to use the path because the complained about small rocks giving them flats..........so instead they choose to ride on a busy scenic byway full of inattentive motorists.

Human behavior is complex so it's never a simple issue of one thing fixing it.

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
9/29/21 1:54 p.m.

Right. 

Use of electronic devices has gone up exponentially in the last ten years.

How many people have stepped in front of you while looking at their screens or having earbuds in?

I'm not surprised in the least that stupid, inattentive people are dying more often.

I'm not saying it's the only cause but I'm dead certain that it's a big contributing factor.

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
9/29/21 2:01 p.m.

While I disagree strongly with WHY others are stating that the kid shouldn't have been arrested, not to mention numerous of their opinions and interpretations of the associated legal matters being discussed, I am going to defend not rushing to judge the police decision to not arrest the kid at this point in time for the singular following reason:

Based even on what little is known so far, I still do not believe it is a lack of 'facts' (evidence) preventing the police from having probable cause of multiple laws being broken by the driver of the truck. Remember it's probable cause, not legally determined guilt, that we think of as putting people in handcuffs at the scene and taking them to jail before the investigation is complete. Multiple corroborating eye witness accounts could certainly be considered probable cause. But probable cause of what exactly?

I'd put money that the police have (right, wrong, or indifferent) decided the law(s) that the probable cause is most applicable (defensible) to, as a result of the eye witness accounts and immediately available evidence on the scene, were (at least initially) determined to be misdemeanors and/or gross misdemeanors... Both of which are NOT actually arrestable only under probable cause, unless it specifically occurs in the presence of the police.

Is it possible that they were also a bit (overly?) generous in that assessment for one reason or another? Absolutely, but not necessarily.

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/29/21 2:57 p.m.

In reply to Driven5 :

Well said

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/29/21 4:15 p.m.

I have nothing to offer other than I love discovering threads like this with 7 pages.  I read page 1, then I read page 7 just to see how far off the topic we've gone laugh

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/29/21 5:07 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

7 pages = 7 degrees of separation.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/29/21 10:25 p.m.

In reply to Tom1200 :

First I would point out other first world countries have shown a downward trend in traffic deaths in the last two decades and the US ranked among the worst for first world nations. Study These countries face the same things the US does as far as distractions from phones and lazy people because people don't change that much country to country in my experience.

Death rates for pedestrains massively increase with speed. Study Results show that the average risk of severe injury for a pedestrian struck by a vehicle reaches 10% at an impact speed of 16 mph, 25% at 23 mph, 50% at 31 mph, 75% at 39 mph, and 90% at 46 mph. The average risk of death for a pedestrian reaches 10% at an impact speed of 23 mph, 25% at 32 mph, 50% at 42 mph, 75% at 50 mph, and 90% at 58 mph. Wheelchair users, low income and minorities are killed at a higher level then other groups. Link Link

Regarding the J-walkers, T4America’s analysis of the national traffic safety database reveals that more than 52 percent of pedestrian deaths happen on arterial roads designed to accommodate many cars on many lanes at high speeds, with little to no accommodation for people on foot. Those roads often lack sidewalks, crosswalks, and medians for safe pedestrian crossings. “All too often, the consequences of this lack of basic infrastructure are fatal,” the authors note. “Of the 40,037 pedestrian fatalities for which the location of the collision was known, more than 40 percent were killed where no crosswalk was available.”

Separated bike lanes have many benefits for both bikers and the less of road users. https://www.aarp.org/livable-communities/getting-around/info-2016/why-bicycling-infrastructure-is-good-for-people-who-dont-ride-bikes.html

I get that stupidity will still get people killed but I still argue that the way city roads are built massively contribute to that.

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy Dork
9/29/21 11:33 p.m.

One more statement to clear up some obvious confusion. 

If the driver of the truck is guilty, he absolutely deserves to face whatever punishment the courts decide. 

He also absolutely deserves due process and the presumption of innocence until that guilt is proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

Without these, we don't have the rule of law. 

Let's give the authorities a chance to do their job before breaking out the pitchforks and torches. 
 

I agree with this 100%. I give myself a 72 hour rule on any news story, because initial reports can be so misleading. Then in something like this, we often won't hear all of the facts until it goes to court. If all this turns out to be true, I hope they throw the book at him. But not only he, our society, deserves due process. Facts and evidence first, then determine criminality, not the other way around. 
 

As for cyclist and pedestrian safety, motorists should do everything they can to avoid collisions. But pedestrians and cyclists bear an even greater responsibility, because they are the ones who stand to be seriously hurt or killed if there is a collision. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I tried riding on back roads a couple of times, wasn't for me. Never got comfortable looking over my shoulder or hoping one of the cars whizzing by didn't hit me. I stick to trails now and limit my time shared with cars as much as possible. When on a bike or on foot, I assume that I'm invisible and any car that I cross in front of will hit me. It's not a cyclist's or pedestrian's fault if a driver breaks a law and hits them, but they put themselves at the scene of the accident.

OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
9/30/21 5:18 a.m.

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

Wisdom 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/30/21 6:43 a.m.

We live in a society that is eagerly destroying due process, rule of law, and doesn't care about facts.  But you can keep thinking people today are supa smaht if you want.  
 

If any wants to make a sequel to Idiocracy, you can just use live modern day footage.  

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
9/30/21 7:46 a.m.

I believe it's worth noting that comments in a forum do not count as due process.

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
9/30/21 9:21 a.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

We live in a society that is eagerly destroying due process, rule of law, and doesn't care about facts.

This needs to be posted again, for emphasis.

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
9/30/21 9:32 a.m.

You can talk about due process all you want, but the cops who failed to arrest this psychopath are the same ones that suicided Sandra Bland in her jail cell after a traffic stop. And the same DA who didn't further investigate her death in their custody. But I'm sure these cyclists will get their justice though, only because they can afford to based on the cost of their bikes. 

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/30/21 11:07 a.m.

What the heck; we are so far out in the weeds now we're 3 counties over.

Profiling - we dislike Coal Rollers because of we find their behavior obnoxious and irresponsible....................so naturally when something happens we assume it's all their fault as they have proven themselves to be irresponsible or put more simply all obnoxious douche bags are instantly guilty by virtue of being an obnoxious douche bags.

Seems logical to me. LOL

 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/30/21 12:09 p.m.
Boost_Crazy said:

As for cyclist and pedestrian safety, motorists should do everything they can to avoid collisions. But pedestrians and cyclists bear an even greater responsibility, because they are the ones who stand to be seriously hurt or killed if there is a collision. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I tried riding on back roads a couple of times, wasn't for me. Never got comfortable looking over my shoulder or hoping one of the cars whizzing by didn't hit me. I stick to trails now and limit my time shared with cars as much as possible. When on a bike or on foot, I assume that I'm invisible and any car that I cross in front of will hit me. It's not a cyclist's or pedestrian's fault if a driver breaks a law and hits them, but they put themselves at the scene of the accident.

What a load of victim blaming crap. Cyclist have a right to the road. Pedestrians should be able to cross roads safely. If the current road systems don't allow for that then solutions should be found not just saying well they shouldn't have been walking or cycling there.

There are plenty of people who don't have cars for any number of reasons from not being able to afford one to not being able to drive to not wanting the environmental impact of owning a car. These people should be able to safely move around without worrying about getting killed on the road. At least in urban and suburban environments

Opti
Opti Dork
9/30/21 12:35 p.m.

In reply to 93EXCivic :

Hes not victim blaming, hes saying people should pay attention and walk and cycle defensively because ultimately if you get hit by a car, the cyclist/pedestrian is the one likely to die, so be aware of that and watch out, because other people wont be. They literally teach bikers this "Assume you are invisible."

The points arent mutually exclusive, he wants people to be aware that cycling and walking is dangerous (because of other people, literally everything becomes more dangerous when you introduce other people) so treat it like that. Your saying places should be better for cyclists and pedestrians. Yes, both of those things are true

Pepe
Pepe New Reader
9/30/21 1:22 p.m.
Opti said:

In reply to 93EXCivic :

hes saying people should pay attention and walk and cycle defensively

Funnily enough, one of the best ways to ride "defensively" is to take the lane, ie, ride right in the middle of it. Yet that just causes drivers to get enraged and shout about how those idiot cyclists think that they own the road. For most drivers, riding defensively = stay out of my berkeleying road.

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy Dork
9/30/21 10:05 p.m.

In reply to 93EXCivic :

What a load of victim blaming crap. Cyclist have a right to the road. Pedestrians should be able to cross roads safely. If the current road systems don't allow for that then solutions should be found not just saying well they shouldn't have been walking or cycling there.

There are plenty of people who don't have cars for any number of reasons from not being able to afford one to not being able to drive to not wanting the environmental impact of owning a car. These people should be able to safely move around without worrying about getting killed on the road. At least in urban and suburban environments
 

Sorry, that was not my intent at all. I'm not  blaming the victims. I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation. You can be in the right yet still put yourself in danger. If I got paralyzed because a red light runner hit me in the crosswalk, I'd find little solace in being right. I still can't walk. So I assume absolutely nothing about deadly weapons operated by strangers. If a car is approaching an intersection, I assume it will run the red light. I don't step in front of a stopped car unless I make eye contact with the driver. Not all that different from handling a loaded gun. There are things that I can do to lower my risk, so I do them. 

As for cyclists- I certainly don't blame them for getting hit by a car if they were not at fault. But the reality is that the consequences for them is much different than the person in the car. The risk/ reward for riding a bike in traffic is just too unbalanced for me, which sucks because I enjoy cycling. But I don't want my family talking at my funeral about how I had right of way. 

As for people less risk adverse- more power to them. Everyone needs to make decisions for themselves. Just remember that for the most part, the law doesn't protect them, it just punishes those responsible after they are injured or killed. No mater how safe we make society, everyone still has a responsibility for their own safety. 

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/1/21 7:36 a.m.

I'm going to add one post, since the big sticking point seems to be about assuming guilt on either party. 
 

while we don't know what happened, we do know that the coal rollers are law breakers. They have tampered with their trucks to make them put out high PM. So forgive people for thinking the odds of them being more at fault are higher since it's clear that they have already broken the law before the interaction. 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
10/1/21 9:04 a.m.

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

Ok fair enough. I guess I misread your post.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/1/21 10:34 a.m.
alfadriver said:

So forgive people for thinking the odds of them being more at fault are higher since it's clear that they have already broken the law before the interaction. 

It's a big jump from rolling coal to murder, I don't think this is a fair assumption.

 

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
10/1/21 10:49 a.m.

A statement from the DA's office in this case:

Rolling coal when a person is in the vicinity and when the individual rolling coal intentionally or knowingly causes that excess exhaust to contact that bystander is AT A MINIMUM an assault. They are causing their vehicle to “spit” on a living, breathing, human being that is worthy of dignity and not having his or her person violated. That simple assault is easily elevated to a jail eligible offense if bodily injury occurs, which can be caused by entry of toxic particles into mouth, nose and eyes.

Like the vast majority of truly douchey driving actions, regardless of whether or not it is ultimately enforced or enforceable, rolling coal with others in close proximity is an inherently illegal act.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/1/21 10:59 a.m.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:
alfadriver said:

So forgive people for thinking the odds of them being more at fault are higher since it's clear that they have already broken the law before the interaction. 

It's a big jump from rolling coal to murder, I don't think this is a fair assumption.

 

I thought they just hit some bikers, not killed them.

My point is more about thinking fault w/o evidence.  I know nothing about the story, but given that I KNOW that the coal rollers broke the law already, it makes sense to me to just think they are likely to be more at fault.  That's just how people think.  I'm not saying it's a 50/50 to 100/0 against, but without any other info, I would at least think 60/40 against just because they break the law in a manner that's less than nice to people.

It's up to the justice system to actually do something about it, but they should at least communicate with the public to explain what they are doing (or not) and why.

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
10/1/21 11:03 a.m.

In reply to Driven5 :

First to reiterate I'm not on the side of coal roller kid BUT

Please Mr DA show us what statue says that this is an assault; because if it is you are also going to have to charge, gravel trucks city buses and a whole host of other vehicles that pass close to pedestrians and cyclists. This is a hyperbolic statement by the DA in response to (understandable) public outrage. If there actually is a statue, then enforce it.

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
10/1/21 11:25 a.m.

In reply to Tom1200 :

None of your (false) 'equivalencies' were illegally modified to intentionally spray an extra-noxious substance at nearby pedestrians, cyclists, and/or motorists that is intended to attack and inhibit their ability to see, breathe, and rightfully operate in a safe manner on the roadway. You're basically arguing that if it's illegal to rig a remote operated can of OC 'bear spray' to the muffler and spray it out the exhaust pipe at pedestrians, cyclists, and/or motorists, then all other tail pipe emissions must also be equally illegal. Lets not obfuscate the matter with logical fallacies.

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
10/1/21 12:44 p.m.

In reply to Driven5 :

I deal with this all day long at work (write contracts for a government entity); it's not a logical fallacy, nor is it a false equivalency, it's the classic slippery slope and if this does go to court the kid's attorney will be all over this. I really don't want to go back and forth on the minutia but it's a stretch to call coal rolling in of itself assault...............regardless of how you and I may feel. It needs to meet the legal standard in a court.

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
10/1/21 12:52 p.m.

In reply to Tom1200 :

You're limiting yourself to legal guilt. I'm including factual guilt. A lack of legal guilt does not absolve one of factual guilt.

Oh, and FYI: 'Slippery slope" is one of the primary argument types specifically defined as a logical fallacy.

350z247
350z247 Reader
10/1/21 12:59 p.m.

WHO CARES?! Three and half pages on this one article? Really?

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
10/1/21 1:55 p.m.

In reply to Driven5 :

Final comment on this as we have beat it to death; slippery slope is why we live in such a litigious country........it's also why I have a well paying job. LOL

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
10/1/21 5:01 p.m.

In reply to 350z247 :

I'm a nica coach. I care. If this dude plowed over a bunch of kids who were in my care at the time, I'd sure be slightly miffed. 

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
10/1/21 6:42 p.m.

The charge of assault can mean different things per jurisdiction.  Where I am attempted assault is based on clear actions from party 1 towards party 2 to impart fear of or actual physical harm. 

So based on the quotes of the few news stories, this 16 year old maneuvered his truck to optimize his rolling of coal upon one group of bikers then moved forward to intentionally roll coal on the other cyclists. The attempt to harass or create fear of harm could be argued, thus charges of attempted assault. Driver's license suspension would be the minimum outcome. 

But as other have stated we don't want prison to be the only outcome but some type of corrective or restorative judgment. Like he has to drive vehicle with caution lights as a rear guard to the Ironman training group for two-three years. 

Folgers
Folgers New Reader
10/1/21 6:44 p.m.

With suburbia expanding we have more urbanites walking or bicycling down rural roads that have a higher speed limit. 

Ive seen many a time, Karen’s walking the dogs four wide down the middle of the county highway. Speed limit 55mph. No walking near the ditch, no moving to single file when a vehicle approaches, ten of them, pissed when I pass in the opposing lane at the speed limit. 

They may have the right of way, they have the right to be stupid, and if that’s true they also have to accept the consequences. 

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
10/1/21 6:56 p.m.
Folgers said:

With suburbia expanding we have more urbanites walking or bicycling down rural roads that have a higher speed limit. 

Ive seen many a time, Karen’s walking the dogs four wide down the middle of the county highway. Speed limit 55mph. No walking near the ditch, no moving to single file when a vehicle approaches, ten of them, pissed when I pass in the opposing lane at the speed limit. 

They may have the right of way, they have the right to be stupid, and if that’s true they also have to accept the consequences. 

Maybe slow down and show some rural neighborliness roll the window down and let her know that for her safety she should be off the highway as while you are nice to stop and warn her others may just plow through her dogs and hope the leash snaps before dragging her with them. Be honest and say I would never assume someone would walk on I-75(or your local interstate) which is the equivalent of her situation.

EDIT, one of my scariest moments while driving late to a race, watching locals in their FARM plate truck jumping the train tracks (over the main road) in the one stop light town, ignoring any traffic signals, zooming through empty lots, and between buildings, such that I just stopped until I saw their taillights go up a trail into the tree line. So urbanites and ruralites(?) Just different  bad choices. 

Opti
Opti Dork
10/1/21 9:07 p.m.

In reply to Advan046 :

Yah because people dumb enough to walk in the middle of a 55 mph lane will be super receptive of constructive criticism.

They are the same as coal rollers. "This is what I want to do, berkeley everyone else"

People are dumb, on both sides of either argument.

Innocent until proven guilty. If proven guilty of a just law, harsh punishments.

Pepe
Pepe New Reader
10/2/21 6:56 a.m.

You know that you are allowed to driver slower than the speed limit, right? 

Opti
Opti Dork
10/2/21 8:26 p.m.

In reply to Pepe :

Yes but I won't risk my health on someone else willing to be courteous and reasonable 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
10/16/21 10:36 p.m.

In reply to Steven Cole Smith :

Those who "roll coal" and do other anti social things also hurt themselves. 4 local bars have been closed by the anti social crowd.  
 They come in and refuse to be polite and respectful.  Offending the majority of the bars clients, who stop going there. The loss of their main clients cause the bar to lose money and go out of business. 
   Just before that happens the anti-social crowd tend to leave the bar themselves because " nobody goes there anymore". 
  Start up with another popular bar and repeat that cycle.  

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