Ligier Sports Prototype crowned winner at Tire Rack Ultimate Track Car Challenge

"I can do this all day. Literally."

It's good to see the category awards. Otherwise it's a little silly running street cars on street tires against all-out racers on track slicks.

I imagine that it's a pretty entertaining event.

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

It's good to see the category awards. Otherwise it's a little silly running street cars on street tires against all-out racers on track slicks.

I imagine that it's a pretty entertaining event.

 

I find it incredible that a GT-R is less than 1.5 seconds behind that Ligier 

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

It's good to see the category awards. Otherwise it's a little silly running street cars on street tires against all-out racers on track slicks.

I imagine that it's a pretty entertaining event.

 

I find it incredible that a GT-R is less than 1.5 seconds behind that Ligier 

Let's check back at 3 AM and see how it's doing.

Meh. Calling that a "car" is like calling the space shuttle an "airplane". 

I'm disappointed.  I was expecting something like this:

Yeah after looking at the results, it looks like Kyle Carrick, Nissan GT-R, 1:49.178  Was the fastest CAR there. Nice job. 

What is your personal definition of a CAR? The Ligier has AC :)

Junghole said:

Yeah after looking at the results, it looks like Kyle Carrick, Nissan GT-R, 1:49.178  Was the fastest CAR there. Nice job. 

I was gonna ask what makes a Supra a car but not a GT-R? 

Junghole said:

Meh. Calling that a "car" is like calling the space shuttle an "airplane". 

First I find out the Ridgeline isn't a truck and now this.



I just don't know what to believe in anymore.

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

It's good to see the category awards. Otherwise it's a little silly running street cars on street tires against all-out racers on track slicks.

I imagine that it's a pretty entertaining event.

I agree.  That gave me a lot more context, even though it'll be a bit before we get the full write-up.

also, makes me curious what nocones' challenge car is capable of, eventually

Junghole said:

Yeah after looking at the results, it looks like Kyle Carrick, Nissan GT-R, 1:49.178  Was the fastest CAR there. Nice job. 

It's the ultimate TRACK car challenge, not the ultimate suburban commute challenge.

dculberson said:

Junghole said:

Yeah after looking at the results, it looks like Kyle Carrick, Nissan GT-R, 1:49.178  Was the fastest CAR there. Nice job. 

It's the ultimate TRACK car challenge, not the ultimate suburban commute challenge.

echo this, what nonsense. Four tires and get around the track as quick as you can. No bonus points because it weighs 2,000 lb more.

dculberson said:

Junghole said:

Yeah after looking at the results, it looks like Kyle Carrick, Nissan GT-R, 1:49.178  Was the fastest CAR there. Nice job. 

It's the ultimate TRACK car challenge, not the ultimate suburban commute challenge.

Meanwhile I'm thinking "I wonder what South Carolina would need to put plates on that".

In reply to tuna55 :

Can't be any more strict than Florida, TBH it's a wonder there's not one of those running around here with plates already.  It has functioning AC, can't say that about a third of the cars in the state. 

EDIT: Looks like one of those Gumball rally blokes did it back in 2013 with a rebellion/ultima GTR chassis https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1084077_rebellion-r2k-street-legal-race-car-for-gumball-3000

It was done a few times with 962s as well IIRC.

And in the pre-prototype days with GTOs, GT40s, blower bentleys, etc.

Since Le Mans was originally a road car race, there used to be a requirement to be able to carry luggage. And of course, motorsports being what it is, there is a standard official FIA suitcase dimension. Cars over 2000 cc had to be able to carry two, cars under 2000 only needed room for one. I'm not sure when (if?) it was removed, but it stuck around for a long time.

Didn't a Riley-chassis Daytona Prototype enter last year (or year before)?  Specifically this one:

So, what's the problem with the Ligier again??

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I went on a tear reading up on the first... 10-ish years of Le Mans races... written up on wikipedia, earlier this year:
Category:24 Hours of Le Mans races - Wikipedia

apparently the second or third year, they required the driver to put up/down the soft top as part of one of the stops (at the start)... to prove that it was functional, and improve the ease of those mechanisms.

In reply to tuna55 :

The Ligier US guys were at the F4 race at VIR a few weeks ago (they do the chassis for that particular F4 variant), they're based in NC.  You could always call and ask for a laugh!

jb229 said:

In reply to tuna55 :

The Ligier US guys were at the F4 race at VIR a few weeks ago (they do the chassis for that particular F4 variant), they're based in NC.  You could always call and ask for a laugh!

Someday I'd love to have the dollars needed for that, just for fun. I know these would make terrible street cars, but it would be the most delightfully terrible thing.

06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

Didn't a Riley-chassis Daytona Prototype enter last year (or year before)?  Specifically this one:

So, what's the problem with the Ligier again??

My, this is a pretty car.

Keith Tanner said:

It was done a few times with 962s as well IIRC.

And in the pre-prototype days with GTOs, GT40s, blower bentleys, etc.

Since Le Mans was originally a road car race, there used to be a requirement to be able to carry luggage. And of course, motorsports being what it is, there is a standard official FIA suitcase dimension. Cars over 2000 cc had to be able to carry two, cars under 2000 only needed room for one. I'm not sure when (if?) it was removed, but it stuck around for a long time.

It just would not fit in the Cobra so the body was modified slightly.

Legend has it that the first set of those dimples was created by a mechanic slamming the trunk on the Official Suitcase. True or not, it fits the Cobra mystique.

It's fun looking at the luggage of the classic Le Mans cars.

GT40:

Another version of the GT40:

Another.

917.

Rover turbine car.

Jaguar D type

The Luggage requirement was part of the GT1 regulations of the late 90's as well, it seems Porsche and Mercedes incorporated the "trunk" into the rear clamshell deck lids, Toyota for the GT-One thought more outside (inside) the box to meet the spec. 

Quoted from the Wiki article:

"Second, Toyota learned about a loophole which Mercedes-Benz had exploited. All GT based cars were required to have storage space, capable of holding a standard sized suitcase, in order for the car to be considered not only production based, but usable by the public. Mercedes exploited this by putting a small cubby hole into an unused area underneath the rear bodywork, although it was not as easy to access as a normal trunk. Toyota, in their interpretation of the rules, were able to convince Automobile Club de l'Ouest (ACO) officials that the car's fuel tank, normally empty when the car is scrutineered before the race, was allowable as a trunk space since it could, theoretically, hold a suitcase."

There was at least 1 road going version of the cars in that class as well, some of which never left the manufacturer like Toyota.

So, what's the problem with the Ligier again??

I don't think that anyone said there was a problem. If Ferrari and Audi showed up with their fastest race cars, all the better. I was just saying that it's nice that there are some prizes for the guys who stand no chance of winning overall.

Participation trophies for everyone :)

Seriously, though. Of course classes are necessary on something like this, otherwise nobody would show up. And it's always fun to see how the little guys stack up to the purpose-built, top of the heap cars.

adam525i said:

" Toyota, in their interpretation of the rules, were able to convince Automobile Club de l'Ouest (ACO) officials that the car's fuel tank, normally empty when the car is scrutineered before the race, was allowable as a trunk space since it could, theoretically, hold a suitcase."

That is some fast talkin' on the part of Toyota. I can't believe the scrutineers bought it.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I guess the ACO never specified the car had to carry the suitcase and fuel at the same time.  Must have had their lawyers on speed dial for that one!

Keith Tanner said:

What is your personal definition of a CAR? The Ligier has AC :)

No tube chassis. 

Junghole said:

Keith Tanner said:

What is your personal definition of a CAR? The Ligier has AC :)

No tube chassis. 

So what do you call it? A quadracycle? It's a race car, but it's still a car.

Junghole said:

Keith Tanner said:

What is your personal definition of a CAR? The Ligier has AC :)

No tube chassis. 

I'm pretty sure that doesn't make it a boat.


So many rules that have nothing to do with what a car is...

Junghole said:

Keith Tanner said:

What is your personal definition of a CAR? The Ligier has AC :)

No tube chassis. 

It doesn't have a tube chassis. It's a carbon fibre monocoque, which is fundamentally not that much different than a unibody. It's hard to come up with a definition that separates it from an Alfa 4C if you're looking at chassis construction. The 4C has a carbon tub with aluminum subframes at each end. The Ligier has a carbon tub with subframes at each end, although I'm not 100% sure if the subframes are steel or aluminum.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Well, then it has to be able to carry a regulation sized suitcase!

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Expanding on that theme; many road going cars of the past were tube chassis cars, so where does one draw the line?

In reply to Tom1200 :

Arbitrarily, it would seem.

I think we're at the "I know it when I see it" level of definition here.

Cooter said:

Junghole said:

Keith Tanner said:

What is your personal definition of a CAR? The Ligier has AC :)

No tube chassis. 

I'm pretty sure that doesn't make it a boat.


So many rules that have nothing to do with what a car is...

So a Boeing 727 is also a car? Seriously though, what if I entered a biplane? It can have four wheels. I take off on the front straight, land on the front straight. And as long as I "don't exceed track limits" I'm completing a lap right? 
 

wait, why not just take a Miata and strap it to a helicopter? Even easier. 

In reply to Junghole :

No, Boeing 727's have six wheels.  They are aircraft. 

06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Junghole :

No, Boeing 727's have six wheels.  They are aircraft. 

 

They also don't carry a small number of people, which I think makes them a bus :)

In reply to Keith Tanner :

So now we are saying buses arent cars? Who put you people in charge of judging what is and isn't?

06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Junghole :

No, Boeing 727's have six wheels.  They are aircraft. 

 

check. 

Junghole said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

So now we are saying buses arent cars? Who put you people in charge of judging what is and isn't?

Hey, I'm just going by the written definition provided by Cooter :)

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Fair

This discussion reminds me of when the Optima Ultimate Street Car Challenge (aka "let's see if your SEMA queen actually works") was introduced. All the cars have to be "street cars". But what constitutes a street car? It ended up being "it is if we say it is". A caged rally Miata is not a street car even though it may be actually road registered and driven thousands of miles on public roads. A SEMA refugee pro touring build that has armor all on the tread is a street car as long as it can make it over the speed bumps on the required surface street loop. It gets tricky to draw the line.

Keith Tanner said:

06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Junghole :

No, Boeing 727's have six wheels.  They are aircraft. 

 

They also don't carry a small number of people, which I think makes them a bus :)

That's a Boeing, not an Airbus :)

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Well, it's still on the ground, so it's not an airbus YET :) But soon it will be a Boeing airbus, just not an Airbus airbus. Or a car.

Road vehicle: A vehicle designed solely or principally for transporting persons, goods or animals by road.

Junghole said:

06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Junghole :

No, Boeing 727's have six wheels.  They are aircraft. 

 

check. 

They are even both monocoque construction, and have wings.. Touche' ..  

Junghole said wait, why not just take a Miata and strap it to a helicopter? Even easier. 

As long as it stayed on the road, you should be fine.

But I don't know how that would make it faster.

In reply to Cooter :

What would happen if you lifted off, "flew" the course, and landed before the finish though? The track limits are technically horizontal, not vertical, right? Or have I never read that rule?

In reply to Junghole :

It wouldn't be a car.  

Now, commonsense would say because it wasn't road going anymore, but in your case, it would be because the helicopter has a tube frame.

In reply to Cooter :

Is there in car footage with data of the Ligiers lap?  I'd like to just humble myself yet again that I don't have the talent or testicular fortitude to run a sub 1:50 lab at VIR.

That was a very entertaining discussion, Humorous Fellow GRM Fans.  And so civil.  I'd argue that Grassroots should stick to cars based closely enough on road cars and or homebuilt lower dollar specials than a pure IMSA prototype, even if driven by one of my favorite people.  I drove one, too.  Not a lot of power, (450?), but the downforce, ohhhhhhh

In reply to randyracer :

It's not the "cheap track car challenge," it's the "ULTIMATE track car challenge."

@Junghole: You still haven't said what you'd call the Ligier. Until you come up with a plausible name that doesn't have car in it and isn't a totally tortured usage of our fine language, I'll assume you're just trolling at this point.

Helicopter indeed. Pshaw!

In reply to dculberson :

I'd call the Ligier "fast".

I suppose open wheel, single seat formula cars could run in this event, too, since people take ex-F1 Ferraris to the track for fun.  Has anyone done that?  Seems there'd be an even bigger groan than about this Ligier.

Should move the event closer to the American F1 Race and see if you can get some of the F1 Teams to join the fun.  

I think if I'm honest, we don't want to call them cars because we can't afford one.

The "we'll know it when we see it" comment did it for me.

I think if we all had Ligier money and wanted to win we wouldn't be concerned with whether it was a real car or not, as long as it's within the rules and passes tech.